Star marking isn't necessary. Visual memory would do as well.

Sure, but you don't even need to memorize it, a small mark like making one star blue would do the same thing that the notches on a acrylic template does.

Did a naughty light-bulb just appear over your heard?

No, I have acrylics with notches on them, and I've never really noticed that they give me any sort of advantage, in fact I seldom even remember they're there.

Just pointing out that you could quite easily use the core set templates to do the same thing you do with the notched acrylics.

My movement set from Applied Perspective has the graduation marks on the straights. In the last 2+ years worth of games I've played with them, including games at three different regionals (including two at the FFG center), 2014 Nationals at Gen Con, as well as Worlds 2014 and 2015. Not a single opponent has brought this up as an issue to me.

In the several events that I have been the TO for over the past year, no player has brought graduated movement templates up as an issue to me.

That said, this is just my personal experience playing the game.

Ultimately, I feel that this is completely resolved by the tournament document section on page 1 labeled "Range Rulers, Tokens, and Maneuver Templates" which allows for a player to request that only one range ruler and/or set of templates be used by both players for that match.

Hm. I have played a few games where my opponent has 3rd party movement templates, but I can't say that I ever actually paid any attention to them (or that I ever will going forward).

But, for those being dismissive of the complaints, any movement template that provides references that can be used during subsequent turns is an obvious issue. The bottom line is that they should not be used because they can, and not under uncommon or unusual circumstances, provide a clear advantage. Think about it like this: If you saw someone marking their cardboard templates to show the incrimentally shorter maneuvers, would you raise your eyebrows when the did a Kturn and then followed up with a straight maneuver that left their rear corner right next to an asteroid?

Also, saying that the opponent of a player with marked templates can ask to use the marked templates is a bad suggestion when the complaint is that the advantage provided by the marked templates is not intended to exist.

Don't really see the issue. If you've played this game for any length of time, straight distances are easy to extrapolate marked templates or no.

If it's a big issue for the opponent anyway, there's already a rule that handles that exact issue. So what's the problem?

Also, saying that the opponent of a player with marked templates can ask to use the marked templates is a bad suggestion when the complaint is that the advantage provided by the marked templates is not intended to exist.

Yeah that's what I thought. You'd have to play with the official ones if your opponent insisted, I'd have thought.

You'd have to play with the official ones if your opponent insisted, I'd have thought.

Here's what the rules actually say.

Before a tournament match begins, any player may request that a single range ruler and/or set of maneuver templates be shared for the duration of the match. Both players must agree on the set of maneuver templates to be used, as well as which side of the range ruler to use. The TO will have the final say in any decision. Third-party tokens may also be used, provided they are clearly recognizable and both players agree to their use.

So if someone has an issue with someone's templates for any reason they can ask that both sides use the same set. It does not have to be a set from the core set, both sides could use the same acrylic set for example.

That does mean however, that if I have a set that someone doesn't like for some reason they can't tell me I can't use them, they have to be willing to share a set with me.

Wow, so much discussion over possible "cheating" in a GAME! This is a game people, a game where mainly "grown" men move little plastic ships around and roll dice. Yes, you have to spend you hard earned money to purchase the game pieces, and spend your valuable time playing the game. But, it is still a game. Even in competitive events there are not really cash prizes, maybe some cardboard or plastic prizes or even some store credit at some venues, but still nothing is given out that you couldn't pay for yourself if you had worked the 10-15 hrs that you were playing during that event.

If someone "needs" to win this game sooooooooo badly that they have to cheat at it, then they are an extremely pitiful person. If you are playing a "friendly" game and are caught cheating then you can expect no one to play with you, and if it is at a tournament, hopefully the TO will kick your sorry butt out of the event.

Also, if you are soooooooo concerned about someone cheating you out of winning a game, then you also have some serious issues, but I will save that for another rant.

If someone "needs" to win this game sooooooooo badly that they have to cheat at it, then they are an extremely pitiful person.

If someone wants to cheat there's a lot better ways of doing it. The notches on a template provide such an advantage in such a narrow window, that the overall effect is pretty much non existent. Plus again any advantage you might get is shared between both people because they can both see the notches.

It's completely possible that the other guy will get more useful information out of then you do.

As VanorDM stated, A rule already exists to deal with such an issue if it arises.

I got AP mirrored templates. I don't bring official cardboard ones to tournaments. Never had an issue with anyone for bringing them.

There are 3 options in a tournament game:

1) We each use our own templates

2) We agree to use your templates

3) We agree to use my templates

I couldn't care less which one it is, as long as the templates match (+/-) the official size.

The "rule" that deals with the subject is barely a rule at all. Requiring your opponent to raise the issue and also have to share templates with you is a possibility poor way to ensure component legality and equity.

FFG would be better served by including some concrete wording on the issue to avoid this thread popping up again and again.

I personally do think templates with additional markings not on the stock templates should not be legal for event play.

FFG would be better served by including some concrete wording on the issue to avoid this thread popping up again and again.

Maybe they don't care? Lots of people use those templates at Worlds or Regionals at the FFG event center and they've never said anything.

FFG would be better served by including some concrete wording on the issue to avoid this thread popping up again and again.

Honestly, I've been playing for maybe two years and come to the forum regularly and it's the first time I see it as being an issue.

As for the rule not being concrete, I don't know what more you expect ? You can bring and use 3rd party templates as long as your opponent is okay with it. If not, you can share the same templates and ruler for the game, yours or theirs.

It might not be to your liking, but they are concrete: 3rd party templates are legal if both party agree.

You'd have to play with the official ones if your opponent insisted, I'd have thought.

Here's what the rules actually say.

Before a tournament match begins, any player may request that a single range ruler and/or set of maneuver templates be shared for the duration of the match. Both players must agree on the set of maneuver templates to be used, as well as which side of the range ruler to use. The TO will have the final say in any decision. Third-party tokens may also be used, provided they are clearly recognizable and both players agree to their use.

So if someone has an issue with someone's templates for any reason they can ask that both sides use the same set. It does not have to be a set from the core set, both sides could use the same acrylic set for example.That does mean however, that if I have a set that someone doesn't like for some reason they can't tell me I can't use them, they have to be willing to share a set with me.

Really? My reading of that would be that third party templates and rulers aren't legal at all. It explicitly allows third party tokens but not templates or rulers.

@people saying "I can't believe you're all still arguing over this": we're not arguing, it's just an interesting thing to discuss

My reading of that would be that third party templates and rulers aren't legal at all.

You may want to get the tournament rules so you can read them. I didn't post the whole paragraph, because I didn't think it was needed... But just so it's clear here's the first part.

Minor variations in the printing process and the existence of third-party products may cause slight disparities in the measurements of some rulers and templates.

So there, you can use 3rd party templates. Plus as I've said if FFG didn't want people using them then they would of said something to all the people at Regionals or Worlds who were using 3rd party templates....

My reading of that would be that third party templates and rulers aren't legal at all.

You may want to get the tournament rules so you can read them. I didn't post the whole paragraph, because I didn't think it was needed... But just so it's clear here's the first part.

Minor variations in the printing process and the existence of third-party products may cause slight disparities in the measurements of some rulers and templates.

So there, you can use 3rd party templates. Plus as I've said if FFG didn't want people using them then they would of said something to all the people at Regionals or Worlds who were using 3rd party templates....

Well, that seems clear cut, sounds like they're allowed then. Is there a whitelist, or are any allowed? If the latter, then you could use some totally different from the genuine ones, and then if your opponent complains their only recourse it to agree to use them as well, which is blatantly unfair as you've been practicing with them while they have been practicing with proper ones.

I know that's a crazy example but the rules ought to cover situations like that. What if it's just a slight difference (but significant, I'm thinking bigger than the variance in printed ones)?

Plus of course, in situations like we're discussing, where the templates have other markings on them - what if somebody's marked firing ranges on their movement templates or movement distances on their range templates? Clearly an advantage for them, and even if both players use it it's a bigger advantage for the player who's practiced using it, who's thought about how to take advantage of it. Seems to me the only fair option is to compel players to use unmodified original templates if asked by their opponent. Hardly seems practical of course - what about wear and tear?

I know this is probably (hopefully) a non-issue amongst us nice people, but you never know - it might be something Scum players take advantage of! But seriously, the rules should cover off the risk, shouldn't they?

Clearly the thing to do at this point is to begin cultivating some counter-FUD* that the "concerns" being raised about the markings are actually originating from the marketing department of a competitor wanting to improve the market share of their increment-free templates.

Once that idea gains a little bit of traction, then the use of anecdote and implication as ammunition for character assassination can be worked into the "discussions" trying to determine which competing company is to blame. That's when things get really fun.

/tinfoil

But for realz, if someone can't eyeball a 2-straight on the table, they're going to lose so badly I might let 'em cheat just out of pity**. I mean, the base of the ship is right there. I drop down a 2-bank and it's like the ship jumped through a wormhole to someplace new and exciting, but even I can estimate the straights (I fly Echo and Vessery; guess which one dies first ).

*Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

**Okay, probably not. But anyone you need to worry about at a tournament won't need this crutch.

My reading of that would be that third party templates and rulers aren't legal at all.

You may want to get the tournament rules so you can read them. I didn't post the whole paragraph, because I didn't think it was needed... But just so it's clear here's the first part.

Minor variations in the printing process and the existence of third-party products may cause slight disparities in the measurements of some rulers and templates.

So there, you can use 3rd party templates. Plus as I've said if FFG didn't want people using them then they would of said something to all the people at Regionals or Worlds who were using 3rd party templates....

Well, that seems clear cut, sounds like they're allowed then. Is there a whitelist, or are any allowed? If the latter, then you could use some totally different from the genuine ones, and then if your opponent complains their only recourse it to agree to use them as well, which is blatantly unfair as you've been practicing with them while they have been practicing with proper ones.

I know that's a crazy example but the rules ought to cover situations like that. What if it's just a slight difference (but significant, I'm thinking bigger than the variance in printed ones)?

The rule also says that both player have to agree about which templates to be used and that the TO have the final say in any decision.

Sooo... unless we are going as far as a big conspiracy between the TO and the evil player using 3rd party templates, I think the rule cover your back. In case of dispute, I would expect the TO to favor the official templates over those of nebulous lenght.

I think there is a clear difference between "slight disparities" and actually going out your way to redesign the templates with "Range Aids"

A slight disparity is the Range 5 ruler being 1mm shorter or longer or 1mm thinner.

Whats the next step in the rules? Pre Measuring?

Do we really want to "dumb" the game down?

Awwww.... you're so cute!

The rule also says that both player have to agree about which templates to be used and that the TO have the final say in any decision.

Sooo... unless we are going as far as a big conspiracy between the TO and the evil player using 3rd party templates, I think the rule cover your back. In case of dispute, I would expect the TO to favor the official templates over those of nebulous lenght.

I would too, I just think it shouldn't even be up to the TO, the rule should be if there's any disagreement the official templates win. The TO would only be needed to decide between two sets of official templates (or unofficial ones I suppose). I know it doesn't matter, it's a non issue, that's just how I'd have written it.

the rule should be if there's any disagreement the official templates win. The TO would only be needed to decide between two sets of official templates (or unofficial ones I suppose).

Originally the rules didn't allow for 3rd party templates so you'd have two people both with the cardboard templates from the rules. But due to printing and cutting, never being exactly the same you'd have 2 sets of templates that aren't identical.

My straight 4 may be a bit longer than yours, and your banks may be a bit a bit longer than mine. So if one person looked at both sets and said, "yours don't match up to mine, so we'll both use mine" it was just so both people were using identical templates.

Then they added in the stuff about the 3rd party Tokens, and latter on the stuff about 3rd party Templates.

But clearly FFG doesn't have an issue with 3rd party stuff, so they're going to leave it to the TO and the players to sort out if there's an issue. Telling people they have to use the core set rulers isn't a suitable answer IMO. For one not everyone is going to keep theirs, or at least bring them with. Also as has been pointed out, you can quite easily mark the official ones so you can accomplish the same thing as you do with the notched rulers. In fact you could do it in a way that no one but you would even notice.

Telling people they have to use the core set rulers isn't a suitable answer IMO. For one not everyone is going to keep theirs, or at least bring them with. Also as has been pointed out, you can quite easily mark the official ones so you can accomplish the same thing as you do with the notched rulers. In fact you could do it in a way that no one but you would even notice.

Yeah, I just meant if there are two players, player a has official rulers and player b unofficial, and player a isn't happy about the unofficial ones (and they can't agree on something themselves) then he should be allowed to insist that they both use his official ones. If neither player has official ones then you'd ask the TO.

then he should be allowed to insist that they both use his official ones.

As a TO if I were involved I'd make them use the official ones in that case. If someone I was playing insisted that we use his cardboard ones, then I'd agree to that too.

But if the issue is having notched range markers, then if both sides use it, then both sides get the IMO completely meaningless information such a thing offers.

Either way it's fair because both sides are using the same thing.

If neither player has official ones then you'd ask the TO.

It's unlikely that the TO would have access to the cardboard templates... I mean if I were a TO I don't know that I'd bother bringing my kit with since I wasn't going to play in the first place.

So if neither side has cardboard ones, then the only thing the TO can really do is tell them which set they're going to use. That or DQ both players for not having the correct components.

If neither player has official ones then you'd ask the TO.

It's unlikely that the TO would have access to the cardboard templates... I mean if I were a TO I don't know that I'd bother bringing my kit with since I wasn't going to play in the first place.

So if neither side has cardboard ones, then the only thing the TO can really do is tell them which set they're going to use. That or DQ both players for not having the correct components.

Yep, that's what I meant - ask the TO to rule on which to use, just like the current rules say. I just mentioned that as I was saying it shouldn't be up to the TO if one player does have official ones, that should be automatic.

I was saying it shouldn't be up to the TO if one player does have official ones, that should be automatic.

I get your point but I'm not sure I agree.

I've seen some cardboard templates that are in pretty bad shape. Rounded corners, missing corners, bent or crooked, and so on. I'd guess FFG is leaving it up to the TO and the players so everyone can pick the best set, based on what everyone is using.