Hi all!

TL/DR: My acrylic straight maneuver templates have built-in grooves, should I get unmarked ones so people don't think I'm cheating?

Not long after starting to play, I got a couple sets of acrylic maneuver and range templates from Applied Perspective (even though I've been collecting since launch, derp), and having talked with some players as well as reading some other threads, I am wondering what the overall opinion is on maneuver templates with notches or grooves fabricated to represent 1-5 maneuver speeds? Meaning that my 5-straight template has four cuts inlaid.

It's been pointed out to me that they can be exploited to pre-measure, something I hadn't considered when I ordered them, and certainly something I am not clever enough, experienced enough, or wanting-to-cheat enough to take advantage of.

My primary opponent/friend/corruptee doesn't care as he generally uses my stuff anyway, and the (absolutely wonderful) player-base in my FLGS seems to have no trouble with it, but I could see it being an issue if I ever decide to try tourneys, even though I'm not really sure I want to go that route.

Should I get them replaced? Even in friendly games, I do not want to be regarded as an exploiter, and I honestly don't have the cognitive capacity to really do so... but I am conflicted between adding the expense of replacing the templates, or opponents having even a particle of doubt as to the authenticity of any perceived skill I might have.

Thanks for any help, pilots!

Huh. I've had AP templates for a while and never even payed them much mind. I've brought them to loads of tournaments and nobody has said anything about them.

I can't imagine them being too useful for pre-measuing anyway. Since you should hopefully be able to mentally divide anny 5 Straight template into 5ths in your head.

In any case, if I recal, the FFG tournament rules say that if anyone is using 3rd party templates, both players need to agree that it's cool. And choose to share the same set of templates if they choose to.

I agree with Rouge... the official line is "if one player has an issue then both players may use the same set of templates", IF someone did have an issue with my templates (if i had any aftermarket ones;-/) i'd happily use theirs for the game (i haven't seen this happen since i've been playing tho...)

Cog 'o two templates have the same markings. No one takes offence of it where I play - and many use them. If problems arise at a tourney you can always agree on using the same set.

This issue has cropped up a lot of times recently.

Every time one common denominator exists and that is a cry from owners that "I have never noticed / paid any attention to it etc".

I think the truth of the matter is the owners of these have had a very good advantage by using measurement sticks with notches or lines at the range 1, 2 and 3 on their 4k or 5k rulers and they all knew exactly what they were doing.

Here is my burning question on this issue.

Why are they there in the first place if they are not marked on the official ones?

The bottom line is people have got away with it for a while now and have been found out.

Take it on the chin guys and get proper marked 3rd party ones or just use the originals

Funny thing but at one league night one player compared the acrylic range template that he received at an official FFG regional tournament with the standard cardboard on in the core set and notice there was a slight variance in length where the 3rd party mirrored template was closer to the core length than the official promotional/reward from FFG.

I wouldn't worry to much tbh

Most who play this game understand the "fly casual" motto.

Those few who don't should really do us all a favor and go back to 40K...

This issue has cropped up a lot of times recently.

Every time one common denominator exists and that is a cry from owners that "I have never noticed / paid any attention to it etc".

I think the truth of the matter is the owners of these have had a very good advantage by using measurement sticks with notches or lines at the range 1, 2 and 3 on their 4k or 5k rulers and they all knew exactly what they were doing.

Here is my burning question on this issue.

Why are they there in the first place if they are not marked on the official ones?

The bottom line is people have got away with it for a while now and have been found out.

Take it on the chin guys and get proper marked 3rd party ones or just use the originals

Before i begin i just want to point out i don't own or use any third party templates/tokens (yet-i've seen some purdy full colour ones on a kick starter project but there's a whole other thread on that..)

Anyway; i think you're making a massive assumption that owners of the marked templates are in full knowledge of the advantageous situation and an even bigger assumption that they are making full use out of it-i haven't noticed anyone trying this in any games i've played/watched... I'm sure there'll be the odd one (there always is somewhere) but my preconceptions of the x wing community are clearly somewhat different to yours...

I can only assume they were put onto the third party ones for aesthetic reasons, i'd be mega surprised if they were designed as a cheating aide...

My question is this: What would you even be capable of "pre-measuring" since you can't lay the template down until you're moving your ship anyway? The only thing I can conceive of you pre-measuring is target lock or range 1/2 but you'd be able to do that with a regular 5-straight template anyway.

My question is this: What would you even be capable of "pre-measuring" since you can't lay the template down until you're moving your ship anyway? The only thing I can conceive of you pre-measuring is target lock or range 1/2 but you'd be able to do that with a regular 5-straight template anyway.

there's probably a number of nefarious ways but with being a simpleton and not having a thought process that works in such ways the one that springs to mind for me is k-turning...

I'm with stegocent (above) on this one.

This is a problem imagined by people on the internet, or experienced by people who are playing with opponents they shouldn't give the time-of-day to. Obviously, sometimes that latter sort of person might crawl out from under a rock and attend a tournament some time, but overall I don't think that anyone should worry about it too much.

My question is this: What would you even be capable of "pre-measuring" since you can't lay the template down until you're moving your ship anyway? The only thing I can conceive of you pre-measuring is target lock or range 1/2 but you'd be able to do that with a regular 5-straight template anyway.

there's probably a number of nefarious ways but with being a simpleton and not having a thought process that works in such ways the one that springs to mind for me is k-turning...

Even still, you'd have to remember for next round anyway. Without any landmarks on the board, this would be nulled, no?

Thanks all! I'll certainly take your thoughts to heart.

The sets from my core boxes don't even come very close to matching up, so I got two sets of Applied Perspectives movement templates and range rulers. If my opponent has a problem with mine I will let him use the identical set of spares that matches perfectly in every way except color.

This issue has cropped up a lot of times recently.

Every time one common denominator exists and that is a cry from owners that "I have never noticed / paid any attention to it etc".

I think the truth of the matter is the owners of these have had a very good advantage by using measurement sticks with notches or lines at the range 1, 2 and 3 on their 4k or 5k rulers and they all knew exactly what they were doing.

That's quite a low opinion of the X-Wing player base you have there! Do most of the people you play with come across as cheats then? Amongst the people I play with, and indeed know, I'd be more than willing to give any potential owners of such an item the benefit of the doubt.

Also, "very good advantage"? Don't you think that's a bit of an exaggeration?

The one way I heard about this being an issue was k turning past an asteroid/enemy ships, and thus knowing what your next move could be to miss those obstacles.

I have a set of the Cogotwo templates, and I think they are great. I honestly hadn't noticed about the lines until recently. I'm generally pretty decent at estimating how far forwards go (its banking I have issues with estimating), except when I totally screw it up that one time it was kinda important.

Relax, if your opponent has them and you dont feel comfortable, mention it and both play with yours.

Simples.

One thing I hate about X-Wing is all of the extreme measure hate which FFG has apparently instilled in some people. While I don't want someone spending all kinds of time measuring out potential maneuvers during the planning stages because it wastes a lot of time this obsession where any kind of measure outside of VERY specific instances is crazy. This is just another example of that insanity.

I guess we should kill anyone who has the sides of their range ruler marked up such that they happen to correspond to how far maneuver templates reach.

Can't agree with you there StevenO. Whilst I will give most people the benefit of the doubt and assume they're not (consciously) using it to pre-measure, I do think estimating stances is part of the skill, and therefore part of the fun, of the game.

This issue has cropped up a lot of times recently.

Every time one common denominator exists and that is a cry from owners that "I have never noticed / paid any attention to it etc".

I think the truth of the matter is the owners of these have had a very good advantage by using measurement sticks with notches or lines at the range 1, 2 and 3 on their 4k or 5k rulers and they all knew exactly what they were doing.

Here is my burning question on this issue.

Why are they there in the first place if they are not marked on the official ones?

The bottom line is people have got away with it for a while now and have been found out.

Take it on the chin guys and get proper marked 3rd party ones or just use the originals

You sir made me laugh hard. Thank you.

I do own 3 set of templates with the straights segmented. They are from Cog-O-Two. I ordered those because I'm an obsessive-compulsive gamer and wanted a set for each faction with their symbols and matching color of their lasers (green for imperials, red/orange for the rebellion, had to settle for dark green for the scum since it was the only color with the mandalorian symbol), not because the straights were marked. In fact, I could not care less if they were mark or not, or if my opponent used some that were marked and actually used that to get more information. If one day I have an opponent that have a problem with my templates, I'll gladly use his instead, as per the rules. This is a game.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go shave my beard so I can practice twirling my evil mustache for the next tournament.

Yeah, I think this is just something the designer of the template thought looked good/handy. Most people buy the things because they're more durable and/or cooler looking than the cardboard ones FFG has.

my range ruler from out the box has marks at 2.5 movement, and 5 movement increments....am I cheating if I use it?

my range ruler from out the box has marks at 2.5 movement, and 5 movement increments....am I cheating if I use it?

Any stock template has loads of markings on it (stars - yes, you can use those for measure if you really wanted to) - so no, it wouldn't be cheating.

Markings are part of the game - let's just be cool about it.

This seems to be an internet-only phenomenon. This is the second post in two days that I've seen mentioning the markings.

99% of players have said "What? Really? Get a grip and calm down. It's no biggie."

1% have said "Anyone who owns these rulers is OBVIOUSLY using them for cheating, and should be totally ashamed of themselves, because they ALWAYS CHEAT and are total SCUM for CHEATING."

My personal opinion is that the 1% are those who don't want to/can't spring for a set of £12 templates and are jealous of how much cooler our plastic toys are. The alternative is that they actually have a deep seated hatred and cynicism regarding their fellow gamers and their motives, which kinda makes me feel sorry for them. But it's their problem, and they can cry to a TO if it bothers them.

*dusts off hands*

Where did I put my Stormtrooper White Imperial templates again? Oh yes...

not sure i am following, are folks saying that they have maneuver templates that also have range notches cut into them? cause the acrylic ones i have don't. i mean WHY would they have this feature?

@Swedge

The Cog ones have markers at range 1, 2 and 3 most others do not.

The owners of the Cog ones are now in a position where players may ask them to use the original ones. due to this and they are not happy about that.

The cog stuff is very stunning but it could (and lets be clear COULD) lead to questions on straight moves after K turns.

No one (allegedly) has even noticed this up until a week or so ago.

I personally use 3rd party acrylic ones plus a full set of acrylic tokens etc which I think cost me £35 in total.

My ones are exactly like the originals except they are acrylic.

Cog users are saying that 99% of players are like "get a grip etc, its not used for that) where in reality its more like 99% of Cog users are like that.

The bottom line is this and will always be this.

If your opponent is not happy with you using Cog ones for this or any other reason then.

1. Do not question him on his objection.

2. Do not throw your toys or Cog Templates out the pram.

3. Do not offer to let him use them.

4. Simply use the Original templates then no one can ever complain about anything