As far as "movie quality jedi"... I'm pretty sure this guy only put one rank into the basic "Reflect" power...

Clearly, not all of the "movie Jedi" were operating at the level of the hero characters (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda). As such, it's not surprising that some may not have the skillset Elias seems to think they need.

Wait, am I agreeing with Tramp?

As far as playing a padawan? (To the OP's question, an OP who hasn't visited in 2 years mind you, so I'd say it's a fair bet you're wasting electrons) Yes. You can. And to what level depends on how much XP you spend.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

The build had a 2 for presence.

That's still average. Anakin shows below normal capability in almost every aspect of Presence. Coercion (from Willpower) seems to be his go-to social skill even before he's Vader.

9 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

That's still average. Anakin shows below normal capability in almost every aspect of Presence. Coercion (from Willpower) seems to be his go-to social skill even before he's Vader.

For humans you can't go below 2 (without a critical injury)

9 hours ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

As far as "movie quality jedi"... I'm pretty sure this guy only put one rank into the basic "Reflect" power...

Clearly, not all of the "movie Jedi" were operating at the level of the hero characters (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda). As such, it's not surprising that some may not have the skillset Elias seems to think they need.

Wait, am I agreeing with Tramp?

As far as playing a padawan? (To the OP's question, an OP who hasn't visited in 2 years mind you, so I'd say it's a fair bet you're wasting electrons) Yes. You can. And to what level depends on how much XP you spend.

Don't about your sanity, you're not agreeing with Tramp either, he claimed reflect improved and several ranks of reflect were an essential part of being a jedi.

That said, the jedi in question did block the first 2 shots (out of 5 or 6, so maybe a rapid recycler attachment on those pistols, it's probably autofire that the gm fluffed as two weapon fighting and I'm betting he jury rigged it to activate on 1 advantage) from jango fett, who is pretty bad *** himself (comparable to Kenobi as the scene a little earlier in the movie showed)

I'm betting the dino jedi ?trebor? Took the mystic lightsaber spec (that I have trouble spelling somethinglike makashi), because he must have been pretty confident in his dueling abilities to challenged dooku, now I'm not claiming that all jedi bit characters are "movie quality" jedi, we simply don't see enough of most of them are capable of to assess them and therefore they don't have much of an effect on the screen time averaged capabilities of an archetypal "movie jedi".

Also that's kind of irrelevant to the point that Tramp is trying to evade because he knows he lost and he just doesn't want to admit it, is that the niman-disciple plus sentry combo is the fastest/lowest xp path to the archetypal movie jedi's capabilities. Even if there is some minor disagreement about what those capabilities are (a very small number of dice pools are in question here), the niman plus sentry 2 spec combo gets you the most bang for your xp buck.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Also that's kind of irrelevant to the point that Tramp is trying to evade because he knows he lost and he just doesn't want to admit it, is that the niman-disciple plus sentry combo is the fastest/lowest xp path to the archetypal movie jedi's capabilities. Even if there is some minor disagreement about what those capabilities are (a very small number of dice pools are in question here), the niman plus sentry 2 spec combo gets you the most bang for your xp buck.

Is it possible to stop with that ? For those who care you explained with details the build. For those who don't careit's beyond annoying, to stay polite. Seriously that level of nitpicking is pure childish behaviour. So, please, could you stop it ?

16 hours ago, Eoen said:

Yes it does, as Niman developed independently of Jar'Kai and as the Jedi adopted both styles, they use the term Jar'kai for two weapon fighting in general, but they are really teaching techniques from both. Therefore Jar'Kai is the technique of two weapon fighting taught by the Jedi that orginated from both Niman and Jar'kai. Where as Niman as reflected in the game does not represent two weapon fighting, therefore there is a need for a two weapon spec hopefully in the clone wars era book.

Under the Niman entry: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VI/Legends

This of course means that Anakin also knew Niman, and his two weapon technique probably originates from there.

No. Niman and Jar'Kai developed completely independently of one another by two completely different groups. The Jedi Order ended up adopting both, but they were still completely independent. Not only that, but the Niman that eventually evolved as a result had nothing to do with two weapon fighting. In fact, according to that article, the Niman the Jedi use, partially evolved from Jar'Kai, not the other way around. So no matter what, Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman. Modern Niman evolved partly from Jar'Kai.

7 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

That said, the jedi in question did block the first 2 shots (out of 5 or 6, so maybe a rapid recycler attachment on those pistols, it's probably autofire that the gm fluffed as two weapon fighting and I'm betting he jury rigged it to activate on 1 advantage) from jango fett, who is pretty bad *** himself (comparable to Kenobi as the scene a little earlier in the movie showed)

A combat round is multiple attacks lasting up to a minute, so that's probably just one combat round and maybe a minion Jedi Padawan!

10 minutes ago, Darzil said:

A combat round is multiple attacks lasting up to a minute, so that's probably just one combat round and maybe a minion Jedi Padawan!

Actually, that guy was a Jedi Master .

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, that guy was a Jedi Master .

That got shot by a character who actually has relevance in the movie.

Do not forget, in this weird discussion, that the characters in the prequels who're not main characters largely are wrecked by them to emphasise how 'cool' they are. There are also things effected by the limitations of the actors who portray them. Such as several Jedi masters getting one shot/standing still whilst Sidious carves a path and then the weirdly pedestrian paced combat he has with Windu.
We see Kit fisto (In the original clone wars cartoon/canon) Taking on underwater tanks without any other Jedi present...yet in the film he is mowed down without doing anything so if you didn't watch that cartoon before watching Episode 3 you could be forgiven for thinking he's a pushover.

Much like How Jango Fett (a character they're trying to hype up) Dismisses that Jedi master in the GIF with ease. Because "that guy" is not relevant to the movie except to make Jango and Dooku look cooler and then later on when Mace Windu defeats him it makes a main character look better.
That does not mean that, if you were to build them in FFG's systems, they'd be weak. It just means they came up against someone who was more powerful than them or were in a disadvantageous situation.

So to @EliasWindrider I say that whenever I set my PCs against a "Jedi" of Knight level they are -powerful- NPCs that take real focus and effort to down and I build any Sith characters of a similar level with the same thoughts in mind.

7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. Niman and Jar'Kai developed completely independently of one another by two completely different groups. The Jedi Order ended up adopting both, but they were still completely independent. Not only that, but the Niman that eventually evolved as a result had nothing to do with two weapon fighting. In fact, according to that article, the Niman the Jedi use, partially evolved from Jar'Kai, not the other way around. So no matter what, Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman. Modern Niman evolved partly from Jar'Kai.

No, wrong. I says jar’kai is from both fighting styles and that Jar’Kai means all two weapon fighting in general meaning that it is in fact descended from both itself and Niman.

Do you actually read the articles or just cherry pick them? For that matter you didn't read what I wrote, as I used the word "subset" not evolved from. In case you don’t understand the word subset.

"Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman. Modern Niman evolved partly from Jar'Kai."

I am not debating the ancient origin of Jar'Kai so repeatedly bringing up the same point which both I and the articles quoted agree with you on, does not change the fact that the two weapon technique of lightsaber fighting in modern times is considered part of Niman. Just like ancient sword fighting techniques are part of Shii-Cho, and ancient fencing techniques are part of Makashi in modern times. All of the lightsaber forms have had thousands of years to develop and likely hybrid fighting styles incorporating many techniques from many martial arts.

Modern being a long time ago in a Galaxy far far away.

Here let’s look at a different article:

http://gotf.wikia.com/wiki/Niman/Jar'Kai

First paragraph:

“Jar'Kai is a subform of Niman. Jar'Kai is one of the oldest forms of lightsaber combat, a dual blade wielding technique.”

12 hours ago, Luahk said:

Do not forget, in this weird discussion, that the characters in the prequels who're not main characters largely are wrecked by them to emphasise how 'cool' they are. There are also things effected by the limitations of the actors who portray them. Such as several Jedi masters getting one shot/standing still whilst Sidious carves a path and then the weirdly pedestrian paced combat he has with Windu.
We see Kit fisto (In the original clone wars cartoon/canon) Taking on underwater tanks without any other Jedi present...yet in the film he is mowed down without doing anything so if you didn't watch that cartoon before watching Episode 3 you could be forgiven for thinking he's a pushover.

Exactly.

Too many people fall into the trap that "Jedi" automatically equates to "uber badass" much as EliasWindrider apparently has. Though at least he's not as much of berk as ancient forum troll AluminiumWolf (good riddance) was in that naft dolt's rabid demands that Jedi PCs had to be the equivalent of Warhamster 40K Space Marines.

Anyway, the simple reality is that folks like Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and even Ahsoka were the A-listers of the Jedi Order, some of the best the Order had to offer at that period in time. Expecting every single Jedi Knight or Master to be equally awesome is like expecting every college basketball player to be on par with Michael Jordan or Scottie Pippen or Magic Johnson or Larry Byrd in terms of basketball skill. That's not to say that those college players are rubbish (they're not), but generally speaking they're simply not able to compete on the same level as those guys.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Exactly.

Too many people fall into the trap that "Jedi" automatically equates to "uber badass" much as EliasWindrider apparently has. Though at least he's not as much of berk as ancient forum troll AluminiumWolf (good riddance) was in that naft dolt's rabid demands that Jedi PCs had to be the equivalent of Warhamster 40K Space Marines.

Where are people getting that I think all or even most jedi in the films are uber badasses? this is/was a discussion about the most efficient way to build a jedi PC capable of what we see Jedi do on screen, which because protagonists get a lot more screen time naturally skews the capabilities of the archetypal movie jedi closer to protagonists than background characters. How many times do I need to say that before people stop claiming that I'm saying something else?

And seriously, the niman-disciple + sentry build I put together using 700 earned xp, while being the most efficient way to get there (with a few expenditures to increase playability that weren't strictly necessary) is NOT an over the top badass build. It was optimized for efficiency not bad-assery, no skill has more than 2 ranks in it.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Where are people getting that I think all or even most jedi in the films are uber badasses?

Your posts in this thread might have something to do with it.

As you just said, your own assumption is that a "decent/baseline" Jedi needs at least 700XP in order to viable as a Jedi, when the reality is that most Jedi Knights/Masters of the pre-Empire days probably had significantly less or weren't nearly as stocked up on talents and Force powers. You make the presumption that just because the big-name folks like Anakin and Obi-Wan can do a thing that means that all Jedi Knights/Masters of that era can do the same thing, in effect treating two of the Jedi Order's main superstars as the 'baseline' for what a Jedi Knight/Master can accomplish.

20 hours ago, Eoen said:

No, wrong. I says jar’kai is from both fighting styles and that Jar’Kai means all two weapon fighting in general meaning that it is in fact descended from both itself and Niman.

Do you actually read the articles or just cherry pick them? For that matter you didn't read what I wrote, as I used the word "subset" not evolved from. In case you don’t understand the word subset.

sub·set

ˈsəbˌset/

noun

noun: sub-set

1. a part of a larger group of related things.

   synonyms:

   subcategory , branch , subdivision , subsection , subsidiary "the quartet is a subset of our orchestral group"

"Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman. Modern Niman evolved partly from Jar'Kai."

I am not debating the ancient origin of Jar'Kai so repeatedly bringing up the same point which both I and the articles quoted agree with you on, does not change the fact that the two weapon technique of lightsaber fighting in modern times is considered part of Niman. Just like ancient sword fighting techniques are part of Shii-Cho, and ancient fencing techniques are part of Makashi in modern times. All of the lightsaber forms have had thousands of years to develop and likely hybrid fighting styles incorporating many techniques from many martial arts.

Modern being a long time ago in a Galaxy far far away.

Here let’s look at a different article:

http://gotf.wikia.com/wiki/Niman/Jar'Kai

First paragraph:

“Jar'Kai is a subform of Niman. Jar'Kai is one of the oldest forms of lightsaber combat, a dual blade wielding technique.”

First off, that article is not Wookieepedia, nor any official source, so it's not good evidence. Secondly, the Wookieepeida articles themselves specifically state that Jar'Kai and Niman are completely different styles, and that modern Niman evolved in part from Jar'Kai , not the other way around. The original Niman was created by the Royale Macheteros of the Kashi Mer Dynasty , whereas, Jar'Kai was created by the Yovshin Swordsmen . Modern Niman combined both styles into one, and Jar'Kai came to be a blanket term for any two weapon fighting style. Thus, modern Niman evolved ancient Niman, Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman, and is not a subset thereof. Jar'Kai is its own fighting style that predates modern Niman. To quote further:

Quote

The Jar'Kai style developed by the Yovshin Swordsmen was named for a city on Atrisia . The city of Jar'Kai was also the site where the original Jar'Kai dueling sabers were crafted. These weapons were utilized by the Yovshin and were designed for the express purpose of being dual-wielded.

Niman, the dual-blade style developed by the Royale Macheteros of the Kashi Mer, was named for the dual triumvirate of the Kashi deities . The style was adopted by the Legions of Lettow, a group of Dark Siders responsible for the First Great Schism of the Jedi Order. After the defeat of the Legion at the hands of the Jedi, Niman was adopted by the Jedi order, eventually being refined into the sixth form of lightsaber combat, referred to by the same name. ^[2] It should be noted that there were Jedi who engaged in dual-blade combat prior to the adoption of Niman by the Order, an example being Awdrysta Pina , who wielded a pair of Jedi katanas in battle. Many Jedi Knights and Sith Lords trained to use Form VI in the hopes of gaining a basic knowledge of the dual-bladed combat, but very few ever achieved complete mastery of Niman.

Both styles predated the invention and usage of lightsabers , but being designed to be practiced with swords, they were easily adapted. In addition, the word "Jar'Kai" became a blanket term for dual-blade combat in general, leading to the birth of the term "Jar'Kai tactic", which was to simply employ two blades in combat, regardless of whether one had received training in any dual-blade fighting style. ^{[ source? ]}

Nowhere in either article does it ever state that Jar'Kai evolved from Niman. Jar'Kai is a completely separate fighting style that predates modern Niman. Jar"Kai and Niman are two completely different two weapon fighting styles , and are not related to one another. The closest the Wookieepedia Niman article says regarding any sort of relation between NIman and Jar'Kai, is that some Jedi use Niman as a gateway into learning Jar'Kai. To quote:

Quote

Derived from a fighting form centered around the use of dual-blades, Niman was considered a foundation for this challenging practice, and became something of a gateway form to Jar'Kai .

That is not the same thing as saying Jar'Kai is a subset of, or evolved from Niman. It didn't. All it means is that the styles are similar enough that some students use Niman as a stepping stone to learning Jar'Kai. However, this is not required. Jar'Kai can be used as a part of any lightsaber form, and is not a subset of Niman at all.

Saying Jar'Kai is descended from Niman is like saying Italian Rapier and Dagger two-weapon fighting evolved from Niten ichi Ryu While both are two-weapon fighting techniques, they are completely unrelated to one another, and are also stylistically different as well. The same with Niman and Jar'Kai. Their only similarity is that they are two-weapon techniques. They are still completely different both stylistically and in origin.

9 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Your posts in this thread might have something to do with it.

As you just said, your own assumption is that a "decent/baseline" Jedi needs at least 700XP in order to viable as a Jedi, when the reality is that most Jedi Knights/Masters of the pre-Empire days probably had significantly less or weren't nearly as stocked up on talents and Force powers. You make the presumption that just because the big-name folks like Anakin and Obi-Wan can do a thing that means that all Jedi Knights/Masters of that era can do the same thing, in effect treating two of the Jedi Order's main superstars as the 'baseline' for what a Jedi Knight/Master can accomplish.

I have not used the words "decent" or "baseline" (went back and searched from the beginning to confirm my recollection was correct) in this thread, statements I have not made are being attributed to me, and what I have said has been modified by others (yourself included, though not to the degree of others) to be outlandish/hyperbole with the outlandish/ hyperbole statements rather than what I actually said be ascribed to me.

My statement has consistently been this is what it takes, in the most efficient way possible (although I've said repeatedly that I used about 45xp, forgetting the precise number, more than I needed to) to replicate the abilities of jedi as displayed in the movies which naturally skews more toward protagonists because they get more screen time than background characters.

5 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I have not used the words "decent" or "baseline" (went back and searched from the beginning to confirm my recollection was correct) in this thread, statements I have not made are being attributed to me, and what I have said has been modified by others (yourself included, though not to the degree of others) to be outlandish/hyperbole with the outlandish/ hyperbole statements rather than what I actually said be ascribed to me.

My statement has consistently been this is what it takes, in the most efficient way possible (although I've said repeatedly that I used about 45xp, forgetting the precise number, more than I needed to) to replicate the abilities of jedi as displayed in the movies which naturally skews more toward protagonists because they get more screen time than background characters.

And what a lot of others (myself included) are saying is that there are multiple other ways that are just as "efficient", and don't rely on Dedications or other some such because a "movie style" Jedi is not as powerful as you think they are.

40 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And what a lot of others (myself included) are saying is that there are multiple other ways that are just as "efficient", and don't rely on Dedications or other some such because a "movie style" Jedi is not as powerful as you think they are.

Very well, i accept your challenge (anyone else is welcome to compete as well) Show me your interpretation of a movie quality human jedi using the standards *you* posted earlier in this thread (improved reflect, force rating 3, the move and enhance power with certain upgrades, there were a few others but that's what I'll hold you to), using 700 earned xp and we'll let the forum vote on which one is more broadly capable (that's the measure of efficiency).

It's time for you to "put your money where your mouth is" or admit you were wrong.

Note that I'm spotting you 20 xp that wasn't optimally spent in the 700 earned xp limit (by putting the second specialization starting rank in negotiation instead of lightsaber (5 xp) and spending 15 xp for an out of career 2nd skill rank in mechanics). With the qualification that the dedication I put into intellect isn't fixed but can "float" to the attribute the voting forum member chooses, nothing about the build "requires it to be placed in intellect it's just my preference, because I like smart characters.

52 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Very well, i accept your challenge (anyone else is welcome to compete as well) Show me your interpretation of a movie quality human jedi using the standards *you* posted earlier in this thread (improved reflect, force rating 3, the move and enhance power with certain upgrades, there were a few others but that's what I'll hold you to), using 700 earned xp and we'll let the forum vote on which one is more broadly capable (that's the measure of efficiency).

It's time for you to "put your money where your mouth is" or admit you were wrong.

Note that I'm spotting you 20 xp that wasn't optimally spent in the 700 earned xp limit (by putting the second specialization starting rank in negotiation instead of lightsaber (5 xp) and spending 15 xp for an out of career 2nd skill rank in mechanics). With the qualification that the dedication I put into intellect isn't fixed but can "float" to the attribute the voting forum member chooses, nothing about the build "requires it to be placed in intellect it's just my preference, because I like smart characters.

I would but....no.
Because I don't disagree with you.
I think this rapidly became a game of you are wrong! With lots of confirmation bias...like with the Jedi Master getting owned by Fett and seemingly unwarranted insults. (with a spattering of the Jar'Kai arguement again.)

Put simply I would expect any Jedi to have Improved reflect/Parry if they were in an episode of clone wars. That alone is going to chomp a large amount of XP. I would also expect them to have move/Sense/enhance. Then...assuming they're a Jedi Knight..i'd expect some level of expertise so add another chunk of XP atop all that.
I have no idea how much that costs because I run my table very differently to most. But that is about what the prequel standard would be to me.

As a Side note I -really- dislike when people involve Luke/Vader from the original three because frankly that was an entirely different world. Not just in 'Canon Era' but in the amount of stuff that is changed once the prequels come out.

5 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Very well, i accept your challenge (anyone else is welcome to compete as well) Show me your interpretation of a movie quality human jedi using the standards *you* posted earlier in this thread (improved reflect, force rating 3, the move and enhance power with certain upgrades, there were a few others but that's what I'll hold you to), using 700 earned xp and we'll let the forum vote on which one is more broadly capable (that's the measure of efficiency).

It's time for you to "put your money where your mouth is" or admit you were wrong.

Note that I'm spotting you 20 xp that wasn't optimally spent in the 700 earned xp limit (by putting the second specialization starting rank in negotiation instead of lightsaber (5 xp) and spending 15 xp for an out of career 2nd skill rank in mechanics). With the qualification that the dedication I put into intellect isn't fixed but can "float" to the attribute the voting forum member chooses, nothing about the build "requires it to be placed in intellect it's just my preference, because I like smart characters.

@Tramp Graphics To make it easier for you here's a 700 XP guardian:soresu-defender/seer which "seems" to be the next most efficient build

http://www.mediafire.com/file/7nqq9dr7gid724p/Movie_Jedi_Soresu_Seer.pdf/file

for you to use as a starting point. I tried to make them comparable.

defense pool against a ranged attack from short range: soresu-defender/seer with the sense defense double upgrade 1 red 1 purple 1 black vs niman-disciple/sentry with the sense defense double upgrade and spending a point of strain (no manuever to activate dodge only if attacked) 2 red 1 black; advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry

defense pool against a melee/lightsaber attack: If the soresu-defender/seer spends a manuever and 2 strain for defensive stance and has a force die comitted to sense defense double upgrade and has a point of defense from armor then his melee defense is 3 red and a black compared to the niman-disciple/sentry's 2 red 1 purple (spends a point of strain on dodge only if attacked and no manuever) and 3 black.... advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry (note that the verdict on this one is based on the dice pools not the costs which also favor niman-disciple/sentry but that will be factored in to the parry and reflect comparisons)

on the basis of reflect, parry, and their improved and supreme varieties: soresu-defender/seer has 4 parry, 3 reflect, improved parry and reflect, supreme parry vs. niman-disciple/sentry has 3 parry, 4 reflect and improved reflect, at first glance it would appear the soresu-defender/seer would win this one but Since he's also spending strain and maneuvers (and maybe consequently trading an action to gain maneuver) on defensive stance that neutralizes the advantage of improved and supreme parry and maybe even makes it a deficit, but this one I'll say is a tie or too close to call

lightsaber attack pool (note 3 yellow are statistically pretty equivalent to 4 green, couple of % different in favor of 3 yellow) soresu-defender/seer 3 yellow vs niman-disciple/seer 2 yellow, 2 green, 2 white (assuming 1 force die committed to sense defense), big advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry

mobility and battlefield control: big advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry

force powers and force dice pools: exact tie

force talents: too close to call (the force is my ally sense advantage natural mystic vs. force assault and impossible fall)

face ability/people skills: slight advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry thanks to sense-emotions talent

skill check dice pools: big advantage goes to niman-disciple because of the extra dedication, but soresu-defender/seer has an unmatched single rank in brawl (starting skill rank)

build flexibility: advantage goes to niman-disciple sentry because you get to choose where to put the second dedication

wounds & soak: tie

strain threshold: 1 point advantage goes to soersu-defender/seer

while they are a lot closer than I thought they'd be, the next most efficient movie quality jedi build i could think of soresu-defender/seer loses in most comparisons against niman-disciple/sentry (in some cases by a lot), ties or is too close to call in a few, and the only comparison i could think of that the soresu-defender/seer definitively wins is it has 1 extra point of strain.

but maybe someone else would care to tweak the soresu-defender/seer build (or replace seer with sage or hermit) and re-evalutate them???

12 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

@Tramp Graphics To make it easier for you here's a 700 XP guardian:soresu-defender/seer which "seems" to be the next most efficient build

http://www.mediafire.com/file/7nqq9dr7gid724p/Movie_Jedi_Soresu_Seer.pdf/file

for you to use as a starting point. I tried to make them comparable.

defense pool against a ranged attack from short range: soresu-defender/seer with the sense defense double upgrade 1 red 1 purple 1 black vs niman-disciple/sentry with the sense defense double upgrade and spending a point of strain (no manuever to activate dodge only if attacked) 2 red 1 black; advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry

defense pool against a melee/lightsaber attack: If the soresu-defender/seer spends a manuever and 2 strain for defensive stance and has a force die comitted to sense defense double upgrade and has a point of defense from armor then his melee defense is 3 red and a black compared to the niman-disciple/sentry's 2 red 1 purple (spends a point of strain on dodge only if attacked and no manuever) and 3 black.... advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry (note that the verdict on this one is based on the dice pools not the costs which also favor niman-disciple/sentry but that will be factored in to the parry and reflect comparisons)

on the basis of reflect, parry, and their improved and supreme varieties: soresu-defender/seer has 4 parry, 3 reflect, improved parry and reflect, supreme parry vs. niman-disciple/sentry has 3 parry, 4 reflect and improved reflect, at first glance it would appear the soresu-defender/seer would win this one but Since he's also spending strain and maneuvers (and maybe consequently trading an action to gain maneuver) on defensive stance that neutralizes the advantage of improved and supreme parry and maybe even makes it a deficit, but this one I'll say is a tie or too close to call

lightsaber attack pool (note 3 yellow are statistically pretty equivalent to 4 green, couple of % different in favor of 3 yellow) soresu-defender/seer 3 yellow vs niman-disciple/seer 2 yellow, 2 green, 2 white (assuming 1 force die committed to sense defense), big advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry

mobility and battlefield control: big advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry

force powers and force dice pools: exact tie

force talents: too close to call (the force is my ally sense advantage natural mystic vs. force assault and impossible fall)

face ability/people skills: slight advantage goes to niman-disciple/sentry thanks to sense-emotions talent

skill check dice pools: big advantage goes to niman-disciple because of the extra dedication, but soresu-defender/seer has an unmatched single rank in brawl (starting skill rank)

build flexibility: advantage goes to niman-disciple sentry because you get to choose where to put the second dedication

wounds & soak: tie

strain threshold: 1 point advantage goes to soersu-defender/seer

while they are a lot closer than I thought they'd be, the next most efficient movie quality jedi build i could think of soresu-defender/seer loses in most comparisons against niman-disciple/sentry (in some cases by a lot), ties or is too close to call in a few, and the only comparison i could think of that the soresu-defender/seer definitively wins is it has 1 extra point of strain.

but maybe someone else would care to tweak the soresu-defender/seer build (or replace seer with sage or hermit) and re-evalutate them???

And, once again, you go overkill . You don't need three 3s and a 4. You don't even need a 4. What you have there is a "lead character" build, ala Obi-Wan, and Anakin. not a "typical" Jedi Knight.

Sentinel : Shien Expert / Seer (20 XP)

Agility 3, Brawn 2, Intellect 3, Cunning 3, Willpower 3, Presence 2. (120 XP)

Morality: 50

Shien Expert talents:

• Street Smarts (5)
• Reflect (5, 10, 20)
• Shien Technique (10)
• Grit (15)
• Improved Reflect (15)
• Saber Throw (20)
• Disruptive Strike (25)
• Supreme Reflect (25)

Total 150

Seer talents:

• Forager (5)
• Uncanny Reactions (5, 10)
• Keen Eyed (10)
• Rapid Reactions (10)
• Grit (15)
• Sense Danger (15)
• Force Rating (20, 25)
• Sense Advantage (20)
• Uncanny Reactions (10)
• Expert Tracker (5)
• Toughened (10)
• Forewarning (15)
• The Force is my Ally (20)
• Natural Mystic (25)
• Preemptive Avoidance (15)

Total XP: 225

Total XP for talents: 375

Force Powers:

Enhance :

• Base power (10)
• Control: Force Leap 1(10)
• Control: Force Leap 2 (10)
• Range: (10)
• Control Force Leap 3: (10)

Total XP: 50

Foresee:

• Base: (10)
• Control: Initiative (10)
• Strength: (5)

Total XP 25

Influence:

• Base: (10)
• Control Emotion: (10)

Total XP: 20

Move:

• Base: (10)
• Magnitude: (5)
• Strength: (10)
• Range: (5)
• Control Hurl: (10)
• Control secured mountings: (5)

Total XP: 45

Seek:

• Base: (10)
• Control Vigilance: (10)

Total XP: 20

Sense:

• Base: (10)
• Control Defense: (10)
• Control Thoughts: (10)

Total XP: 30

Total XP for Force Powers: 190

Ranked Skills:

• Deception: 2 (10) YYGFFF
• Perception: 1 (0) YGG
• Stealth: 2 (10) YYG
• Athletics: 1 (0) YGFFF
• Lightsaber: 4 (45) YYYG
• Knowledge (Lore): 1 (5) YGG
• Discipline: 3 (30) YYY
• Vigilance: 2 (15) YYG
• Charm: 1 (0) YGFFF
• Mechanics: 1 (0) YGG

Total Skill XP: 115

Total XP: 700

18 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, once again, you go overkill . You don't need three 3s and a 4. You don't even need a 4. What you have there is a "lead character" build, ala Obi-Wan, and Anakin. not a "typical" Jedi Knight.

Sentinel : Shien Expert / Seer (20 XP)

Agility 3, Brawn 2, Intellect 3, Cunning 3, Willpower 3, Presence 2. (120 XP)

Morality: 50

Shien Expert talents:

• Street Smarts (5)
• Reflect (5, 10, 20)
• Shien Technique (10)
• Grit (15)
• Improved Reflect (15)
• Saber Throw (20)
• Disruptive Strike (25)
• Supreme Reflect (25)

Total 150

Seer talents:

• Forager (5)
• Uncanny Reactions (5, 10)
• Keen Eyed (10)
• Rapid Reactions (10)
• Grit (15)
• Sense Danger (15)
• Force Rating (20, 25)
• Sense Advantage (20)
• Uncanny Reactions (10)
• Expert Tracker (5)
• Toughened (10)
• Forewarning (15)
• The Force is my Ally (20)
• Natural Mystic (25)
• Preemptive Avoidance (15)

Total XP: 225

Total XP for talents: 375

Force Powers:

Enhance :

• Base power (10)
• Control: Force Leap 1(10)
• Control: Force Leap 2 (10)
• Range: (10)
• Control Force Leap 3: (10)

Total XP: 50

Foresee:

• Base: (10)
• Control: Initiative (10)
• Strength: (5)

Total XP 25

Influence:

• Base: (10)
• Control Emotion: (10)

Total XP: 20

Move:

• Base: (10)
• Magnitude: (5)
• Strength: (10)
• Range: (5)
• Control Hurl: (10)
• Control secured mountings: (5)

Total XP: 45

Seek:

• Base: (10)
• Control Vigilance: (10)

Total XP: 20

Sense:

• Base: (10)
• Control Defense: (10)
• Control Thoughts: (10)

Total XP: 30

Total XP for Force Powers: 190

Ranked Skills:

• Deception: 2 (10) YYGFFF
• Perception: 1 (0) YGG
• Stealth: 2 (10) YYG
• Athletics: 1 (0) YGFFF
• Lightsaber: 4 (45) YYYG
• Knowledge (Lore): 1 (5) YGG
• Discipline: 3 (30) YYY
• Vigilance: 2 (15) YYG
• Charm: 1 (0) YGFFF
• Mechanics: 1 (0) YGG

Total Skill XP: 115

Total XP: 700

Since main characters get more screen time the archetypal movie jedi naturally skews more towards main characters than background characters, and a build roughly comparable to Obiwan or Anakin as of episode 2 is what I was shooting for, I do think the builds come up a little short of that but yeah I do "plead guilty" of subscribing to the philosophy that PCs should be the main characters of the campaign they're playing in rather than play bit parts compared to cannon characters. So yes I most certainly believe that PCs by virtue of being PCs should be better than "typical" NPCs having the same in universe job description, and I'm somewhat surprised that you don't.

But that sounds very much like you admitting that the niman-disciple/sentry build is more broadly capable a.k.a. more efficient than what you just proposed ? do you care to concede now or leave it to a forum member vote

By the way off the top of my head (before I put this in the ogg dude generator to make comparisons easier), shien expert is in the sentinel career, and seer is in the mystic career, which means it costs 30 xp rather than 20 xp so you would appear to be 10 xp overspent (like I said I haven't put it in ogg dude's generator so I haven't double checked whether or not you followed RAW)

On 8/1/2018 at 2:46 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

First off, that article is not Wookieepedia, nor any official source, so it's not good evidence. Secondly, the Wookieepeida articles themselves specifically state that Jar'Kai and Niman are completely different styles, and that modern Niman evolved in part from Jar'Kai , not the other way around. The original Niman was created by the Royale Macheteros of the Kashi Mer Dynasty , whereas, Jar'Kai was created by the Yovshin Swordsmen . Modern Niman combined both styles into one, and Jar'Kai came to be a blanket term for any two weapon fighting style. Thus, modern Niman evolved ancient Niman, Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman, and is not a subset thereof. Jar'Kai is its own fighting style that predates modern Niman. To quote further:

Nowhere in either article does it ever state that Jar'Kai evolved from Niman. Jar'Kai is a completely separate fighting style that predates modern Niman. Jar"Kai and Niman are two completely different two weapon fighting styles , and are not related to one another. The closest the Wookieepedia Niman article says regarding any sort of relation between NIman and Jar'Kai, is that some Jedi use Niman as a gateway into learning Jar'Kai. To quote:

That is not the same thing as saying Jar'Kai is a subset of, or evolved from Niman. It didn't. All it means is that the  styles are similar enough that some students use Niman as a stepping stone to learning Jar'Kai. However, this is not required. Jar'Kai can be used as a part of any lightsaber form, and is not a subset of Niman at all.

Saying Jar'Kai is descended from Niman is like saying Italian Rapier and Dagger two-weapon fighting evolved from Niten ichi Ryu While both are two-weapon fighting techniques, they are completely unrelated to one another, and are also stylistically different as well. The same with Niman and Jar'Kai. Their only similarity is that they are two-weapon techniques. They are still completely different both stylistically and in origin.

I looked around the internet and almost everyone disagrees with you from YouTube to websites, I’m going with their nerd credentials over yours.

like this video

11 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Since main characters get more screen time the archetypal movie jedi naturally skews more towards main characters than background characters, and a build roughly comparable to Obiwan or Anakin as of episode 2 is what I was shooting for, I do think the builds come up a little short of that but yeah I do "plead guilty" of subscribing to the philosophy that PCs should be the main characters of the campaign they're playing in rather than play bit parts compared to cannon characters. So yes I most certainly believe that PCs by virtue of being PCs should be better than "typical" NPCs having the same in universe job description, and I'm somewhat surprised that you don't.

I'm halfway.
I believe the PCs should start as the run of the mill characters with a great potential to end up significantly beyond that and reach a level where they might be a side character in the movie (or a relevant character from Clone wars) and perhaps, if they continue to achieve ridiculous things, to a level where they might even become central.

2 hours ago, Luahk said:

I'm halfway.
I believe the PCs should start as the run of the mill characters with a great potential to end up significantly beyond that and reach a level where they might be a side character in the movie (or a relevant character from Clone wars) and perhaps, if they continue to achieve ridiculous things, to a level where they might even become central.

Even a starting character, e.g. a human with four 3's and two 2's for attributes is head and shoulders above a minion npc (most sentient beings in the galaxy are minion npcs),

If I were to make a jedi knight npc (one experienced enough to have their padawan), that I bothered to have a stat block for which already means they're reasonably important (and keep in mind the objective is to be reasonably capable while having a very short stat block) they would have three or four 3's, one 4 (in the lightsaber attribute) and the rest 2's. They would have 2 ranks discipline and 2 ranks cool/presence, 1 or 2 ranks lightsaber, 1 or 2 ranks negotiation, 1 or 2 ranks lore, 15 wounds and strain, adversary 2, reflect 3, improved reflect, parry 2, the relevant lightsaber technique talent, move a a with 2 strength, 2 range, and the hurl upgrade, enhance with the force leap (excluding maneuver). And then a little customization depending on the character 1 or 2 signature talents from a tree they would have if they were a pc, or maybe the enhance pilot upgrades if they were a pilot and maybe 1 or 2 ranks in another skill.

That would be their "in universe impressive/well respected peer" not a newb but not at the level of cannon main characters, and quite at the level of PCs, this as indicated is a more important than typical jedi.

7 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

(most sentient beings in the galaxy are minion npcs)

Most sentient beings in the galaxy don't even have stats. This game isn't a simulation of the galaxy, it's an engine for collaboratively creating Star Wars-like stories through play.