34 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

Well the original issue was you said niman was a poor tree. The best way to see that would be a series of fights using characters with only the talents from niman and 1 of each the other trees and basic equipment.

Actually that argument came later and branched off of this issue. We simply managed to get back to the core disagreement.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it isn’t. All it does is see who can make a stronger or more skilled/ talented character for a set amount. The only way to create a true comparison of the most efficient build for a typical movie style Jedi is to set specific parameters based upon what is the standard Jedi of the era that we see on film and in fiction (the majority of the Jedi) and see who can match that criteria with the fewest XP.

First of all I don't agree that the majority of jedi were the archetypal movie jedi because the majority of jedi didn't get much screen time. Second because we don't see what most jedi who appear in the movies are truly capable and not capable of, we have no way of know what the majority of movie jedi are capable of. Third you're now trying to add "in the fiction" to fill that out but "the fiction" is ill defined, if we were to add the clone wars (which is Disney canon) that helps slightly but not much because most jedi still don't get much screen time compared to Obiwan, Anakin and Ahsoka (by the way Quinlan voss seems pretty comparable to obiwan in the I think 2 episodes they are working together on to track down ziro the hutt). The point that you seem to be missing is that absence of evidence is not equivalent to evidence of absence. The simple fact is we just don't know with any kind of certainty what the limits of most jedi in the movies are. The only movie jedi that we can truly say that we truly know what the limits of their abilities of are obiwan and anakin and MAYBE yoda, mace windu, and Ahsoka (clone wars movie). We don't have definitive information about the capabilities of other movie jedi, at best it's highly suspect guesswork.

So your premise that anyone can accurately represent the abilities of the majority of movie jedi is fundamentally invalid. Everyone has a different interpretation. We already tried coming up with a common set of criteria and couldn't agree on "requirements" for movie quality jedi, I think being good at a number of non combat skills and being a decent pilot (because jedi had starfighters) is part of what makes for a movie quality jedi (the clone wars cgi series seems to back me up on this, but that's not the movies so it's irrelevant anyway).

Contrary to your (completely bogus) claim, doing more with less is the very definition of efficiency. If you would prefer a slightly different xp total that is negotiable, but it's not going to be much different than 2 specs and a handful of force powers because the debate is whether or not " niman-disciple/sentry " is the most efficient movie quality jedi build, that presupposes a comparison to niman-disciple/sentry .

And since you didn't reply to attempt to refute it, I'll accept your concession that yoda wasn't only used as a basis of comparison because he had the second highest midichlorian count.

you also haven't commented on the fact that the niman-disciple/sentry build is nowhere close to the OFFICIAL obiwan stats from rise of the separatists. I think Obiwan's new stats (3,3,5,5,4,4) definitely recalibrates what typical jedi are capable of to a much higher level. care to comment? ?

I also think niman-disciple is the most efficient single spec jedi build (you get *good* lightsaber, force rating, dedication, and social skills out a single spec... can't say that of any other specialization, at least not until rise of the separatists is out)

Oh dear . It seems that Tramp's posting style of widespread use of bolded text is contagious .

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Oh dear . It seems that Tramp's posting style of widespread use of bolded text is contagious .

I guess we're both infected ?

Contamination!!

Contamina t ion!!!!!

SE A L THE FOR U MS ! !!

B EFO R E I T' S TOO LATE!!

11 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Oh dear . It seems that Tramp's posting style of widespread use of bolded text is contagious .

11 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I guess we're both infected ?

9 hours ago, Dayham said:

Contamination!!

Contamina t ion!!!!!

SE A L THE FOR U MS ! !!

B EFO R E I T' S TOO LATE!!

Given that there are now at least 3 victims of this disease besides tramp, maybe we should start a " victims of Tramp Graphics' bold face font disease support group " thread. I'm suggesting that name because diseases are commonly named after patient 0 ?

This thread has become an Unknown Armies plot hook.

And I'm just sitting here still liking Turtles. Ah balls......

15 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

First of all I don't agree that the majority of jedi were the archetypal movie jedi because the majority of jedi didn't get much screen time. Second because we don't see what most jedi who appear in the movies are truly capable and not capable of, we have no way of know what the majority of movie jedi are capable of. Third you're now trying to add "in the fiction" to fill that out but "the fiction" is ill defined, if we were to add the clone wars (which is Disney canon) that helps slightly but not much because most jedi still don't get much screen time compared to Obiwan, Anakin and Ahsoka (by the way Quinlan voss seems pretty comparable to obiwan in the I think 2 episodes they are working together on to track down ziro the hutt). The point that you seem to be missing is that absence of evidence is not equivalent to evidence of absence. The simple fact is we just don't know with any kind of certainty what the limits of most jedi in the movies are. The only movie jedi that we can truly say that we truly know what the limits of their abilities of are obiwan and anakin and MAYBE yoda, mace windu, and Ahsoka (clone wars movie). We don't have definitive information about the capabilities of other movie jedi, at best it's highly suspect guesswork.

So your premise that anyone can accurately represent the abilities of the majority of movie jedi is fundamentally invalid. Everyone has a different interpretation. We already tried coming up with a common set of criteria and couldn't agree on "requirements" for movie quality jedi, I think being good at a number of non combat skills and being a decent pilot (because jedi had starfighters) is part of what makes for a movie quality jedi (the clone wars cgi series seems to back me up on this, but that's not the movies so it's irrelevant anyway).

Contrary to your (completely bogus) claim, doing more with less is the very definition of efficiency. If you would prefer a slightly different xp total that is negotiable, but it's not going to be much different than 2 specs and a handful of force powers because the debate is whether or not " niman-disciple/sentry " is the most efficient movie quality jedi build, that presupposes a comparison to niman-disciple/sentry .

And since you didn't reply to attempt to refute it, I'll accept your concession that yoda wasn't only used as a basis of comparison because he had the second highest midichlorian count.

you also haven't commented on the fact that the niman-disciple/sentry build is nowhere close to the OFFICIAL obiwan stats from rise of the separatists. I think Obiwan's new stats (3,3,5,5,4,4) definitely recalibrates what typical jedi are capable of to a much higher level. care to comment? ?

I also think niman-disciple is the most efficient single spec jedi build (you get *good* lightsaber, force rating, dedication, and social skills out a single spec... can't say that of any other specialization, at least not until rise of the separatists is out)

Obi Wan isn’t a “typical” Jedi. He’s one of the most powerful Jedi Masters , and a member of the Council, so having higher stats make sense. This is born out on screen too, given how many fully trained Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters we’re killed in the Arena on Geonosis.

And as for Yoda, I already stated that Yoda was most certainly used as a comparison to Anakin only because he had the next highest midichlorian count. That is confirmed in Obi Wan’s choice of words, and Qui Gon’s response.

As for your disagreement that the majority of the Jedi in the movie weren’t “archetypal” Jedi simply because they didn’t get much screen time, that’s ludicrous. They are the majority they are what is the norm. That’s what it means to be the norm or the standard. It is what the majority of any group are established as being. If the majority of a given group have certain specifications or capabilities, then that is the standard, not what a handful of exceptional individuals have.

19 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Obi Wan isn’t a “typical” Jedi. He’s one of the most powerful Jedi Masters , and a member of the Council, so having higher stats make sense. This is born out on screen too, given how many fully trained Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters we’re killed in the Arena on Geonosis.

And as for Yoda, I already stated that Yoda was most certainly used as a comparison to Anakin only because he had the next highest midichlorian count. That is confirmed in Obi Wan’s choice of words, and Qui Gon’s response.

As for your disagreement that the majority of the Jedi in the movie weren’t “archetypal” Jedi simply because they didn’t get much screen time, that’s ludicrous. They are the majority they are what is the norm. That’s what it means to be the norm or the standard. It is what the majority of any group are established as being. If the majority of a given group have certain specifications or capabilities, then that is the standard, not what a handful of exceptional individuals have.

Obiwan's awesome and dramatically outclasses my build. That doesn't in anyway say my build is overwhelming.

Not that it's relevant because it's in the clonewars tv show not a movie but when Quinlan Voss teamed up with obiwan to track down ziro the hutt and went up against cad bane they seemed pretty comparable.

But by the same token, what on movie screen evidence do you have that obiwan as of aotc is head and shoulders above the masses of jedi knights?

And how do you explain obiwan casually compare Anakin's skill with lightsaber to "not hardly" be better than yoda's after previously saying "if you practiced your saber as much as you practiced your whit you'd be better than yoda"? That's not related to midichlorians.

EDIT: Hmm my memory seems less than perfect again... the quote seems to be

OBI-WAN: - If you'd spend as much time working on your saber skills as you do on your wit, young Padawan, you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman.

ANAKIN: - I thought I already did.

OBI-WAN: - Only in your mind, my very young apprentice.

I like lamp.

If Han ever fought a clone of himself , since Han s hoot s first....who shoots f irs t?

What does a wookiee bad hair day look like ?

Do you think samurai sword sellers use phrases like "slashing prices! " or " all inventory half off!" or "we're cutting prices left and right! " or do you think that's too on the nose for them ?

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

If Han ever fought a clone of himself , since Han s hoot s first....who shoots f irs t?

They both do, causing a paradox that turns everyone into Jar-Jar Binks, kinda like that one scene in Being John Malkovich.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

What does a wookiee bad hair day look like ?

Same as a human's, just everywhere.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Do you think samurai sword sellers use phrases like "slashing prices! " or " all inventory half off!" or "we're cutting prices left and right! " or do you think that's too on the nose for them ?

A friend of mine (Sensei Brian) says they totally do.

I think some people aren't taking this discussion seriously at ALL.

Preposterous!! Now mizzen the main mast and poop the swab deck! We're taking this thread to the Shoulder of Orion!!

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I like lamp.

If Han ever fought a clone of himself , since Han s hoot s first....who shoots f irs t?

What does a wookiee bad hair day look like ?

Do you think samurai sword sellers use phrases like "slashing prices! " or " all inventory half off!" or "we're cutting prices left and right! " or do you think that's too on the nose for them ?

Do you really like the lamp KungFuFerret or are you just going around saying you like it because you saw it in your mind palace?

1 minute ago, Vergence said:

Do you really like the lamp KungFuFerret or are you just going around saying you like it because you saw it in your mind palace?

I'm actually just saying it I've never seen the movie that it's a quote from, but I like using it because it's just such a random, stupid thing to say, it's sort of the conversational equivalent of a needle scratching over a record, followed by echoing silence.

37 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Preposterous!! Now mizzen the main mast and poop the swab deck! We're taking this thread to the Shoulder of Orion!!

Can we make a quick pit stop at Tannhauser Gate? I need to pee.

21 minutes ago, warchild1x said:

Can we make a quick pit stop at Tannhauser Gate? I need to pee.

No! That's what the swab deck is for! Poopin and peein'! Just don't face into the wind!

19 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Obiwan's awesome and dramatically outclasses my build. That doesn't in anyway say my build is overwhelming.

Not that it's relevant because it's in the clonewars tv show not a movie but when Quinlan Voss teamed up with obiwan to track down ziro the hutt and went up against cad bane they seemed pretty comparable.

But by the same token, what on movie screen evidence do you have that obiwan as of aotc is head and shoulders above the masses of jedi knights?

And how do you explain obiwan casually compare Anakin's skill with lightsaber to "not hardly" be better than yoda's after previously saying "if you practiced your saber as much as you practiced your whit you'd be better than yoda"? That's not related to midichlorians.

EDIT: Hmm my memory seems less than perfect again... the quote seems to be

OBI-WAN: - If you'd spend as much time working on your saber skills as you do on your wit, young Padawan, you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman.

ANAKIN: - I thought I already did.

OBI-WAN: - Only in your mind, my very young apprentice.

Quinlan Vos is a Jedi master. However, that doesn't necessarily mean hes as powerful as Obi Wan. As for him being head and shoulders above most of the other Jedi i n AotC? There's the fact that he survived when the majority of the Jedi in the arena battle didn't, including all of the Niman practitioners.There's also the fact that he was able to hold his own against Dooku for a time.

As for his statement to Anakin regarding practicing his lightsaber skills, once again, it goes back to how naturally powerful Anakin is, and how powerful he could potentially be if he applied himself . He was also being sarcastic .

Obiwan did not hold his own against dooku not even for a time, dooku was toying with him, Anakin and obiwan together might have been a small threat to dooku but even if they had tried to take him together they were outclassed by dooku by himself. Also we don't have any onscreen evidence about how other jedi would have faired against dooku so this does not support your proposition in the slightest.

Now supposing you're are correct that niman is an extremely weak lightsaber form and that the death of every niman disciple user in the battle of genosis is still canon. Then the weakness is with the form rather than the jedi and it implies most jedi knights should be stronger/more powerful than my 2 spec build and assuming a force rating of 3 for jedi knights, that you could expect most of the niman disciple knights to have 2 or more dedications (or maybe 1 if they had force rating 4). In any event you just argued that my build was underpowered without even realizing it.

At the time of the clonewars episode where Quinlan voss teams up and is comparable to obiwan, obiwan was also a master, so you're going to have to try a different argument because that one fell flat on its face.

Your feeble attempt an "explanation" of the lightsaber comment does absolutely nothing to discredit the evidenced proposition that yoda is used as a benchmark/reference point.

Similarly mace windu is noted as one of the few jedi to have beaten yoda in a duel, so it's not just Anakin that gets compared to yoda.

13 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Obiwan did not hold his own against dooku not even for a time, dooku was toying with him, Anakin and obiwan together might have been a small threat to dooku but even if they had tried to take him together they were outclassed by dooku by himself. Also we don't have any onscreen evidence about how other jedi would have faired against dooku so this does not support your proposition in the slightest.

Now supposing you're are correct that niman is an extremely weak lightsaber form and that the death of every niman disciple user in the battle of genosis is still canon. Then the weakness is with the form rather than the jedi and it implies most jedi knights should be stronger/more powerful than my 2 spec build and assuming a force rating of 3 for jedi knights, that you could expect most of the niman disciple knights to have 2 or more dedications (or maybe 1 if they had force rating 4). In any event you just argued that my build was underpowered without even realizing it.

At the time of the clonewars episode where Quinlan voss teams up and is comparable to obiwan, obiwan was also a master, so you're going to have to try a different argument because that one fell flat on its face.

Your feeble attempt an "explanation" of the lightsaber comment does absolutely nothing to discredit the evidenced proposition that yoda is used as a benchmark/reference point.

Similarly mace windu is noted as one of the few jedi to have beaten yoda in a duel, so it's not just Anakin that gets compared to yoda.

Yoda is used as a benchmark for comparing who is the most powerful of the Jedi, not who is a typical one. Anakin's power level is compared to Yoda specifically because of his exceptional power and ability in the Force. And Yoda is the only other Jedi to which Anakin can be compared. Mace Windu as well, is one of the most powerful Jedi in the order, second only to Yoda on the Jedi Council . None of them are "typical" Jedi.

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda is used as a benchmark for comparing who is the most powerful of the Jedi, not who is a typical one. Anakin's power level is compared to Yoda specifically because of his exceptional power and ability in the Force. And Yoda is the only other Jedi to which Anakin can be compared. Mace Windu as well, is one of the most powerful Jedi in the order, second only to Yoda on the Jedi Council . None of them are "typical" Jedi.

... is this even really a thing though?

I mean, besides some banter do we ever really see any serious "power" comparisons. It's not like Yoda is seen winning the 450th annual Force Power Lifting competition...which would admittedly be pretty sweet.... like the Olympics, but with mind-bullets...

Dang it now I can't get the vision of a buff body-building yoda in a banana hammock out of my head...

Curse this thread!

13 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

... is this even really a thing though?

I mean, besides some banter do we ever really see any serious "power" comparisons. It's not like Yoda is seen winning the 450th annual Force Power Lifting competition...which would admittedly be pretty sweet.... like the Olympics, but with mind-bullets...

Dang it now I can't get the vision of a buff body-building yoda in a banana hammock out of my head...

Curse this thread!

No, it's not really a thing. That's part of my point to Elias.

Now I'm picturing people looking at Force-users with those eyepieces that estimate power level from Dragonball Z.

And lots of sweating and grunting as they stammer on about power levels!

To be fair that makes me think of a sort of tri-wizard tournament idea for jedi. I bet that could be a pretty interesting couple of sessions.