So, back on topic!!

Personally, my requirements for a bare-minimum Padawan are pretty straight-forward; Force Rating 2, at least one rank of Lightsaber, Discipline, and at least one Knowledge skill (typically Lore for a traditionally trained Jedi). On top of that, at least the base power for Enhance, Sense, and Move. This isn't meant to be a "Movie-style Jedi Knight." It's just what I feel any Padawan should have. This bare minimum can be achieved with a huge variety of builds as well.

About a year and a half ago, I built a character (Kuroth Boone) meant to become a Padawan for a friend's campaign I was able to hit my minimum requirement with 160 XP total on talents and skills. 70 XP invested into Seer (Uncanny Reactions, Keen Eyed, Grit, Sense Advantage, Force Rating), 30 XP to buy Soresu Defender, 25 to get Parry and Reflect in Soresu (Parry, Soresu Technique, and Reflect). As for starting skills, as a Pau'an character, I started with Negotiation. I chose Charm, Perception, and Vigilance for Mystic, Discipline, and Knowledge (Lore) for Seer, and I spent 5 XP to get a single rank of Lightsaber after buying Soresu Defender. Finally I threw in 10 XP for Enhance's base, 10 XP for Move, and 10 XP for Sense.

Naturally, this left a ton of room for Kuroth Boone to grow, and he wasn't super powerful at the start of the campaign (relative to the other players, who had all spent their XP in more efficient ways), but playing the character did still feel very much like playing a real Jedi developing their skills. My character was especially behind the other players in the beginning, as I had decided to try spending my racial XP almost exclusively on talents instead of on increasing attributes (mostly. I did put 20 XP toward bumping Brawn from a 1 to a 2, though). With the character's starting 105 racial XP, I bought to FR 2 in Seer and spent the 15 XP to get Enhance and the Control upgrade for Resilience. However, after a handful of games, my character had pretty much caught up to the rest of the party, with the Force powers giving me a great variety of options for the two Force dice my character started with. On top of the 160 XP I listed above, I also gave him 15 XP more in Enhance to allow him to commit two Force dice toward Brawn, which greatly helped in combat encounters (One yellow and three green in my Lightsaber checks, and a Soak of 6, were about on par with most of the rest of the party in combat. We weren't very specialized for battle.). I put 25 XP into Move for a Strength upgrade, a Range upgrade, and the Hurl upgrade, letting him use it combatively. And finally, I put 20 XP into Influence to gain access to the Jedi Mind Trick.

All told, I spent about 245 XP (105 starting, 140 earned over the course of five 6-hour sessions) on this character before the campaign was brought to an early end due to scheduling conflicts. At the time, my character was built as follows:

Attributes: Brawn 2/4, Agility 2, Intellect 2, Cunning 2, Willpower 3, Presence 2

Wound: 14 Strain: 12 Soak: 4/6 Force Rating: 2

Skills: Charm 1, Discipline 1, Knowledge (Lore) 1, Lightsaber 1, Negotiation 1, Perception 1, Vigilance 1

Force Rating 1, Grit 1, Keen Eyed 1, Parry 1, Reflect 1, Sense Advantage, Soresu Technique, Uncanny Reactions 1

Enhance: Base, Resilience, Brawl, Brawn

Influence: Base, Mind Trick

Move: Base, Strength, Range, Hurl

Sense: Base

Comparing this build to, say, the stats for Ezra Bridger from Dawn of Rebellion, Kuroth Boone is actually fairly close to the Jedi Padawan. They both have FR 2, both at Discipline 1 with Willpower 3, and both have a tiny bit in Enhance, Influence, Move, and Sense. With Boone's upgrades in Enhance, Kuroth Boone is statistically close to Ezra (he can get his Brawn to a 4, while Ezra has a 3 in Agility and Cunning), though Ezra has more skills available to him, and a couple more Force powers (Foresee and Animal Empathy). You could say Kuroth Boone is pretty much a starting-level Padawan, while Ezra is a fairly experienced one, but they're both fairly close to one another.

Had the campaign continued long enough, it wouldn't have taken much more XP for my character to reach what I would consider average for a Jedi Knight. 20 XP in Enhance for Force Jump horizontal and vertical, 10 XP in Sense for the first Commit upgrade, 70 XP in Seer for The Force Is My Ally, Natural Mystic, and another rank of Force Rating, and 40-85 XP in Soresu Defender for another rank of Parry, Improved Parry, one or two ranks of Reflect, and possibly Improved Reflect. Throw in another 20 XP for a second rank in Discipline and Lightsaber to top it off. So to hit what I would consider an average entry-level Jedi Knight, I would need to spend a total of 450 XP (105 starting, 345 earned).

12 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

You are really failing at English here.

There is an old Appalachian proverb that goes something like,

"it's not what you don't know that makes you look foolish, it's what you know that ain't so"

On a related note Abraham Lincoln famously said " Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

unfortunately, that ship has sailed for you, but you could keep from digging yourself a deeper hole (again unfortunately I don't think that you have that much sense).

to illustrate how badly your failing at English, when you quoted the Webster's dictionary definition of benchmark you didn't even understand that it was refuting the point you were claiming it made.

first of all a baseline is a very particular type of benchmark. Standardized tests such as LINPACK are another, Google LINPACK so you can see for yourself that I'm not making this up, it's a computational linear algebra benchmark commonly used to compare the speed of high performance computers (as in big clusters/servers), all the computers run the same program and its execution is timed and the execution time is the basis for comparison with lower times indicating faster computers. The ACT and SAT are standardized tests that colleges/universities use to compare the academic aptitude of prospective students and decide who to admit and who not to.

there are other benchmarks that are standards, a standard by itself is just a reference point, it's kind of like a baseline except a baseline implies that a minimum requirement has been defined in terms of the standard.

Here's the take away. REQUIREMENTS ARE DEFINED IN TERMS OF STANDARDS BUT STANDARDS THEMSELVES ARE NOT REQUIREMENTS.

STANDARDIZATION is REQUIRING a STANDARD to be met, but for a STANDARDIZED TEST is the TEST that is required to be administered according to the STANDARD (so that test scores are comparable) not the scores of the people/computers/etc. taking the test. Now you can ALSO require the people taking the test to have a score that meets another standard, but that standard is a very different standard than the one that the TEST has to adhere to. And again, REQUIREMENTS ARE DEFINED IN TERMS OF STANDARDS BUT STANDARDS THEMSELVES ARE NOT REQUIREMENTS.

oh for ****'s sake, now you're quoting dictionary definitions to further your point? Seriously, just let it drop, this is beyond silly at this point.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

stand·ard

ˈstandərd/

noun

1. 1.

   a level of quality or attainment.

   "their restaurant offers a high standard of service"

   synonyms:

   quality , level , grade , caliber , merit , excellence "the standard of her work"
2. 2.

   an idea or thing used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations.

   "the wages are low by today's standards"

adjective

1. 1.
   used or accepted as normal or average.

   "the standard rate of income tax"

   synonyms:

   normal , usual , typical , stock , common , ordinary , customary , conventional , wonted , established , well established , settled, set , fixed , traditional , prevailing "the standard way of doing it"

Can't you at least use the Devil's Dictionary, to make this whole thing a bit more fun?

8 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Can't you at least use the Devil's Dictionary, to make this whole thing a bit more fun?

No, no he cannot.

Wow... this thread just won't go away.

I think the thing that gets me here is the very concept of a "standard" Padawan is an illusion, and applying standards is just a rabbit hole full of rabbit holes.

Obi-wan as of TPM

Anakin as of the end of TPM

Ahsoka as of the day she showed up to the day she quit the order

Ezra as of... what maybe season 2?

All could be called Padawans. All showed different abilities. All those abilities are widely open to interpretation when attempting to apply game mechanics.

Should I even mention my theory that Qui-gon is Knight Level and actually an aborted first pass character played by the same player that runs Anakin?

My rule of thumb in my campaign is that Jedi Knight is about 500 spent XP, Jedi Master about 1,000 spend XP, Jedi Council Member about 2,000+ spent XP.

Anything below that is a Padawan (or "Apprentice," since my timeline takes place in the far future and the term "padawan" has been lost to history). Someone somewhere said that "Knight-level," or 150 starting XP, creates what most people would think of as a "basic" Jedi Padawan.

20 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

stand·ard

ˈstandərd/

noun

1. 1.

   a level of quality or attainment.

   "their restaurant offers a high standard of service"

   synonyms:

   quality , level , grade , caliber , merit , excellence "the standard of her work"
2. 2.

   an idea or thing used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations.

   "the wages are low by today's standards"

adjective

1. 1.
   used or accepted as normal or average.

   "the standard rate of income tax"

   synonyms:

   normal , usual , typical , stock , common , ordinary , customary , conventional , wonted , established , well established , settled, set , fixed , traditional , prevailing "the standard way of doing it"

   Anakin is not “standard” by any definition nor is he the benchmark by which other Jedi are measured. He is not the norm, nor is Obi-Wan or Yoda. Those were the exceptions not the rule among Jedi.

By definitions 1 and 2 Anakin is the standard, and the one that doesn't seems like a connotation rather than a denotation. Everyone got compared to Anakin BECAUSE he was the chosen one, therefore he is/set the standard (a standard is a metric/unit of measure) by which the capabilities of other Jedi were judged. By the way which dictionary are you quoting, I know it's not (the authoritative) Webster's. In any event 8 out of 9 quoted definitions agree that Tramp is wrong about this and the 1 that doesn't comes from a suspect source .

At this point, your BEST CASE scenario for the argument about whether Anakin was/was-not THE (as opposed to "a") standard jedi, is you narrowly avoid being UNDENIABLY wrong, by virtue of there being multiple applicable definitions of the word "standard." You went with the colloquial definition meaning "typical" and I went with the technical definition "metric/unit of measure" (because, to quote futurama, "being technically correct is the best kind of correct"). And this is after you introduced the word "standard" after having lost the debate about an archetypal movie jedi on the basis of screen time.

So like I said a few pages back, since we don't agree on WHICH definition of "standard" is appropriate to use here, we are certainly not going to agree on the set of abilities that the "standard" jedi knight should have. Therefore the only remaining way to resolve the dispute about whether or not niman-disciple/sentry is the most efficient way to build the/a "standard" (because I'll agree that you can use "standard" as a synonym for "movie quality" for the purpose of resolving this) jedi knight is to compare builds with the same fixed amount of earned xp (700 earned xp) on the basis of which one is more broadly capable, because that can be objectively judged without us having to agree on the qualities that the standard jedi knight should/must have.

Wrong @EliasWindrider , the fact that he was way above pretty much every other Jedi in the order is what makes him not the standard, but way above standard. The standard is the norm , not the exception. Most Jedi were nowhere near Anakin's level of power. That means he was the exception , not the norm . The norm was Jedi like Aayla Secura, Quinlan Vos, Ki Adi Mundi, Barriss Offee, etc. Those were your standard Jedi.

Imo, at the amount of XPs a character has at creation, around 100 most of the time, you have a youngling with enough skills and Force mastery to become a Padawan. With 150 more XPs he/she is a confirmed Padawan who can do tasks for his/her master. Between 500 and 700 XPs he/she has enough skills and Force mastery to be tested to be a confirmed Jedi. By the time he/she has earned 1500 XPs he/she should be a Master Jedi.

But I think the maturity of a character is a more important factor than the mastery with skills and Force to become a Padawan the a Jedi then a Master Jedi. And that is something any amount of XPs would never show.

FFG got sick of the bickering and addressed the controversy.

" The Jedi receive their own career in Rise of the Separatists , representing their unique status during the Clone Wars. You can become the face of the organization as a brave Knight or learn the ways of the Force as a Padawan. Both of these specializations offer their own talent tree and give access to unique Force abilities."

Maybe because part of my love for rpg stuff comes from a group of players bringing specialist skills to work together on something, but I don't think I'd put a mechanical limit or guide on what makes a padawan. I think I'd keep it pretty much narrative, like when the padawan reaches a certain age, or as the plot demands. After all we see padawans of different ability levels, ranging from pretty naff to absolute bosses, so it seems tricky to pin down. If they can grab their crystal and make a lightsaber at low xp, gg to them. Maybe they were reckless and took some big risks, or were really smart about it.

It's a bit like being a knight you just need to pass those trials of skill, flesh etc. Doesn't matter how you pass or what level you are, if you can find a way around a problem with less xp then that's fair play. I think because FFG relies heavily on narrative tools (which I do enjoy) and the advantage and disadvantage, it means we don't need to worry so much about stats for this stuff. My rule would be 'when I think a player has earned it'. Having said that, for one of my pbp sessions I had the party become padawans with starting xp at the end of the first session, and that didn't seem to be an issue.

Full disclosure I couldn't bring myself to read through the whole argument, so if I'm off topic my bad. I just felt I'd put my two cents in.

Also @Darth Revenant I may not have read the whole argument, but I did see your idea for a Hutt jedi, and I would love to have that as a sort of an npc/cameo for one of my campaigns if that's cool The idea just sounds hilarious and awesome at the same time.

5 minutes ago, Rabobankrider said:

Maybe because part of my love for rpg stuff comes from a group of players bringing specialist skills to work together on something, but I don't think I'd put a mechanical limit or guide on what makes a padawan. I think I'd keep it pretty much narrative, like when the padawan reaches a certain age, or as the plot demands. After all we see padawans of different ability levels, ranging from pretty naff to absolute bosses, so it seems tricky to pin down. If they can grab their crystal and make a lightsaber at low xp, gg to them. Maybe they were reckless and took some big risks, or were really smart about it.

It's a bit like being a knight you just need to pass those trials of skill, flesh etc. Doesn't matter how you pass or what level you are, if you can find a way around a problem with less xp then that's fair play. I think because FFG relies heavily on narrative tools (which I do enjoy) and the advantage and disadvantage, it means we don't need to worry so much about stats for this stuff. My rule would be 'when I think a player has earned it'. Having said that, for one of my pbp sessions I had the party become padawans with starting xp at the end of the first session, and that didn't seem to be an issue.

Full disclosure I couldn't bring myself to read through the whole argument, so if I'm off topic my bad. I just felt I'd put my two cents in.

Also @Darth Revenant I may not have read the whole argument, but I did see your idea for a Hutt jedi, and I would love to have that as a sort of an npc/cameo for one of my campaigns if that's cool The idea just sounds hilarious and awesome at the same time.

Sure, just go for it. Some sort of Hutt Consular has been something I have been thinking of playing for quite a while, but I also love my current character, so haven't really had any chances to try it out.

I just love the idea of an interaction something along the lines of: 'Wait, so all this happened while I was meditating?' 'YES! Did you not think something was wrong all this time?' 'I just thought it was part of the test' 'Everyone is dead!' 'Huh, well it explains a lot actually'.

49 minutes ago, Rabobankrider said:

I think I'd keep it pretty much narrative, like when the padawan reaches a certain age, or as the plot demands. After all we see padawans of different ability levels, ranging from pretty naff to absolute bosses, so it seems tricky to pin down.

And I just imagined a terrible mashup scene of Star Wars and Harry Potter with Hermione using her lightsaber to light candles while Ron misses completely and cuts a load bearing pillar causing the roof to partially collapse and Mace Windu to fall in through the hole.

39 minutes ago, Rabobankrider said:

I just love the idea of an interaction something along the lines of: 'Wait, so all this happened while I was meditating?' 'YES! Did you not think something was wrong all this time?' 'I just thought it was part of the test' 'Everyone is dead!' 'Huh, well it explains a lot actually'.

This is the best and worst campaign kickoff idea I've heard in a while...

Space Hermione must carry her team

A padawan is just a knight in training.

Your are a padawan when you just got acceptec and don't know ****, to doing jedi acrobatics the day before your ordained a Knight. While there is certainly a threshold of force mastery to the various jedi "ranks", it was equally if not more so about a maturing of character.

4 hours ago, TheShard said:

FFG got sick of the bickering and addressed the controversy.

" The Jedi receive their own career in Rise of the Separatists , representing their unique status during the Clone Wars. You can become the face of the organization as a brave Knight or learn the ways of the Force as a Padawan. Both of these specializations offer their own talent tree and give access to unique Force abilities."

I've pretty much been saying since the F&D Beta that the Jedi of the Old Republic weren't using Force and Destiny careers, but instead had their own special Jedi career.

Now it's a legit fact ?

Huh, who would've thunk that Force and Destiny characters were just Universe 6 Saiyans this whole time. Now we finally get to see the real deal!

Nah but for real, I'm glad we finally get Force-users that (hopefully) live up to their appearances in the movies and show.

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Wrong @EliasWindrider , the fact that he was way above pretty much every other Jedi in the order is what makes him not the standard, but way above standard. The standard is the norm , not the exception. Most Jedi were nowhere near Anakin's level of power. That means he was the exception , not the norm . The norm was Jedi like Aayla Secura, Quinlan Vos, Ki Adi Mundi, Barriss Offee, etc. Those were your standard Jedi.

One definition of standard is norm or typical , anakin is not typical, I never claimed he was.

Another definition, the technical one, is a unit of measurement like a foot or pound or second or gallon, it is a reference point, other objects are measured by comparing them against the standard. Because everyone gets compared to Anakin (and that happens because he is an exceptional or a model) that makes him the standard (he is the unit of measurement)

He also is/sets the standard because of his high even exceptional level of achievement (yeah that's another definition of standard)

I can’t wait for all the “The Padwan specialisation is bs, you need at least three more specs to even be close to ready for the Knight spec!”

2 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I can’t wait for all the “The Padwan specialisation is bs, you need at least three more specs to even be close to ready for the Knight spec!”

Are they standard padawans or baseline? ?

3 minutes ago, warchild1x said:

Are they standard padawans or baseline? ?

No, they are typical padawans ?

Obiwan as a general during the clone wars had brawn 3, agility 3, intellect 5, cunning 5, willpower 4, presence 4,

Somehow the 3 3 4 2 4 2 statline for my 2 spec newbie jedi knight doesn't seem so exceptional now.

46 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Obiwan as a general during the clone wars had brawn 3, agility 3, intellect 5, cunning 5, willpower 4, presence 4,

Somehow the 3 3 4 2 4 2 statline for my 2 spec newbie jedi knight doesn't seem so exceptional now.

You’re only 6 dedications away from being a general ?