1 minute ago, Eoen said:

I do ignore him, but rebutting him gives me a chance exercise my formal debate and logic training I paid for.

Does it? That would only really be true if he's willing to engage with you in the same manner. Tramp tends to make statements based upon his own understanding and then doesn't budge despite whatever comes against it. Over time, you might be the river that wears down his stone, but do you have the centuries to waste on making that progress?

16 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Anakin in episode 2, as a padawan, who had not yet even come close to hitting his peak, was in terms of his ability the standard that jedi knights should strive to live up to (not all would). Obiwan as of episode 2 also was not nearly as impressive as he was in episode 3, he was still a knight rather than a master. You seem to be neglecting the very important factor of time. In ep 3 anakin and obiwan stood out from Quinlan voss, etc., not so much in episode 2. Quinlan voss etc. were also very likely above average jedi. There is also more than one definition of standard, you seem to want to use typical rather than benchmark/reference point. If you're using the "typical" meaning then you are incorrect to apply that to Quinlan voss, Ki Adi Mundi, etc. who were also higher than the nameless typicals. PCs should outclass npcs and Quinlan voss etc. got enough face time in other works besides the movies to be PCs. But I don't recall Quinlan voss being in any of the movies so he's not really relevant to the discussion.

15 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Separate issue, you said niman was a wussy/weakest lightsaber form, that's what you need to prove and effectively concede to being wrong about by backing down from the challenge.

Something you may have noticed but probably didn't connect the dots on... niman doesn't have improved reflect so a diplomat jedi that only took niman and not sentry/shien/soresu wouldn't stand much of a chance against a lot of blaster fire (e.g. genosis), even if they were reasonably capable at dueling. I imagine that jedi more focused on lightsabers wouldn't limit themselves to a single lightsaber specialization (they are probably also at least taking "half lightsaber" specs like sentry/padawan (survivor minus the survivor side of things). Also while niman practitioners dying en masse at genosis does prove they were weak against blasters (because their adversaries were using blasters from the BATTLEFIELD point of view, probably more than sufficient for dealing with blasters from a law enforcement point of view) does not prove they were weaker than average duelists because they did not fight other lightsaber wielders at genosis (it also doesn't prove they were good duelists, genosis is a non statement on that issue).

Like it or not, whether it matches your head cannon or not, in the ffg edition of the game, the niman disciple spec is better at dueling than shien expert, and soresu defender, probably on par with shii cho knight, and weaker than makashi duelist and ataru striker. Juyo berseker is really hard to compare to the other primary lightsaber specs.

The advantage of niman is primarily that it is a well rounded lightsaber form, it's not amazingly strong or weak offensively/defensively, it does pretty much everything adequately to the point where it's very tempting to have it be your only lightsaber spec, because unless something unexpected like the clone wars comes along, you don't really need to know more. With the other specs (with the possible exception of soresu), you can't really get by as a police force with a single lightsaber spec, you have to take something else to compensate for the weakness of your primary form or you're probably not going to live very long as a peace keeper, and since you have put the effort into compensating for your primary forms weakness you stand a better chance of surviving genosis.

That's an explanation that's perfectly consistent with both cannon and ffg game mechanics, and the message is that niman is better than average in the sense of having fewer weaknesses than other forms which makes it (too) tempting to not compensate for the weaknesses it does have. But if you pair it with sentry then the primary weaknesses are largely compensated for, which "coincidentally" makes niman/sentry the most efficient way to get abilities comparable to the archetypal movie jedi (those with the most screen time)

Niman, as a pure lightsaber combat style is indeed weaker. But that's not the main point regarding creating the "most efficient movie style Jedi." The main problem is what you consider a "standard" movie style Jedi and what I consider a "standard" movie style Jedi are two different things . Let's take Anakin, for example. Even in AotC Anakin was way more powerful than any other Padawan . He was already as powerful as many experienced Knights . What he lacked was discipline and humility. by RotS he was as powerful as many Masters, while he was still only a Knight. As such, he is never a "standard" Jedi. He always overpowers every other Jedi of his equivalent "rank" within the order. The same with Obi-Wan, though to a lesser degree.

As for having to take multiple specs, every lightsaber style needs to do that. This is because a proper Jedi Knight does need multiple Force Rating increases, and most Lightsaber specs don't grant that.

The only way to properly adjudicate the "most efficient" "movie style" Jedi is to set an agreed upon standard of exactly what skills (at what rank), what Force Rating, what talents, and what Force powers (and upgrades for each) are required to meet the base line standard. Then see which build can meet that specific standard with the least amount of XP. It's not a question of what lightsaber spec is more or less powerful, nor who can make the most powerful Jedi with the least XP.

8 hours ago, Eoen said:

Your analogy is flawed we are talking about thousands of years from the founding of these sword fighting schools until the clone wars. Given that amount of time there wouldn’t be any chance of the two disciplines taught under one school not merging, no matter how much distance or time is between the two systems originally.

I idea that the Jedi would maintain an ancient sword fighting system intact is silly, especially since the don’t use swords as their weapon of choice.

Within a few centuries of global trade we have seen many real world martial arts such as Taekwon do , Sambo, Savate, Krav Maga to name a few hybridize from traditional martial arts from all over the world; and then there’s the MMA where they all meet, and hybridize further. Fighters adopt techniques from other fighters all of the time and to not do so is potentially hazardous to their health.

No, it's not flawed. The problem with your logic is that it is specifically contradicted by the articles linked to, and by the canon.

2 hours ago, Eoen said:

Nah, if it was that easy there wouldn't even be a term for it.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

If you believe that, you've never studied martial arts. There are names for everything, no matter how mundane. Every hand grip has a name. Every stance and step taken from it has a name too. This doesn't mean you have to learn those names to do it.

1 hour ago, Eoen said:

I think that Wookiee article rather poorly written, or edited. There seems to be a great deal of confusion about Jar’kai and it’s relationship with Niman and other lightsaber forms. It implies Jar’kai is used with all lightsaber forms while simultaneously being an ancient martial art or wholly incorporated either into Niman or being a blanket term that includes all forms of two lightsaber fighting. It’s also clear some part of the fan base see the terms Jar’kai and Niman as interchangeable because when you look up any other lightsaber form on wookipedea it doesn’t say you may be looking for Jar’kai.

Also the Jar’kai article says Ahsoka is a practitioner, while the Niman article says she’s a Niman practitioner, but both mention two weapon fighting.

I really don't care what they are called personally, or whether Jar'kai is it's own thing or part of something bigger, I would however like to see some two weapon melee talents in the game. My main objection is Tramp trying to enforce his head canon on everyone else.

IT's not poorly written at all. Jar'Kai was a unique ancient two-weapon fighting style, completely separate from Niman. Both styles were adopted by the Jedi. but they weren't blended together. Niman simply evolved from being simply a two-weapon fighting style into the "diplomat's style" of today, while Jar'Kai evolved to be applicable to all of the other main Lightsaber forms (Ataru, Makeshi, Shien, Shii-Cho, Soresu ). That's not "head canon" that's what the actual articles state. Niman and Jar'Kai are not related, and never have been. They are unique unto themselves.

30 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I do ignore him, but rebutting him gives me a chance exercise my formal debate and logic training I paid for.

Yes, but your "rebuttals" are all wrong .

The key thing to understand is that Jar"Kai didn't incorporate elements from Niman, nor any other lightsaber form. Rather, the other lightsaber forms incorporated Jar'Kai techniques into themselves.

48 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it's not flawed. The problem with your logic is that it is specifically contradicted by the articles linked to, and by the canon.

Ah tramp, digging yourself a hole again, the article linked to is not canon, there is barely any canon info on Jar'kai. Under Canon your entire debate falls flat on its face.

Here below is a former canon source. Bold emphasis mine.

Niman is also the combat style associated with the use of twin blades. The art of wielding a sword in each hand is broadly known as Jar’Kai, after the Yovshin Swordsmen. Form VI acts as a foundation for this challenging practice. This being as close to canon as possible since it was published under Lucas.

Quote

Form VI Lightsaber Combat: Niman

Niman, also called the Moderation Form and the Way of the Rancor, is the sixth traditional lightsaber form. In everyday parlance it is known as the “diplomat’s form,” for it is the style preferred by Jedi Consulars who have not chosen to make a career out of combat. Form VI is the most balanced of all styles. It is not as precise as Form II, as defensive as Form III, as kinetic as Form IV, nor as dominating as Form V, but Form VI draws from all styles to create a hybrid form marked for its practicality. Many battlemasters do not consider Niman sufficiently demanding. While it is true that it would be nearly impossible for a Form VI adherent to defeat an expert in Makashi, this doesn’t mean that the style isn’t useful for facing down criminals and thugs. Thus for Jedi Consulars, who devote a high percentage of their time to study and peacekeeping, it is a form easily mastered. To compensate for the relaxed focus on blade- work, Form VI encourages integrating Force powers into combat. Two notable moves include Draw Closer, in which a Jedi telekinetically pulls an enemy within range of a saber sweep, and Pushing Slash, in which a Jedi Force-blasts an enemy away after inflicting a cut. Proper management of these tools allows a Form VI master to take control of a group of enemies and eliminate them one by one. Niman is also the combat style associated with the use of twin blades. The art of wielding a sword in each hand is broadly known as Jar’Kai, after the Yovshin Swordsmen. Form VI acts as a foundation for this challenging practice. Those who wish to incorporate a second blade may wish to use a lightsaber shoto in their off hand, for its shorter blade allows for greater range of motion. Jedi who have multiple limbs, such as the Priapulin Master Skwelli, who carried six sabers, are a wonder to behold in the extant recordings in the Jedi Holocrons.

Wallace, Daniel. The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force (Star Wars) (Kindle Location 121). becker&mayer! Press. Kindle Edition.

Quote

The key thing to understand is that Jar"Kai didn't incorporate elements from Niman, nor any other lightsaber form. Rather, the other lightsaber forms incorporated Jar'Kai techniques into themselves. 

I don't disagree with this your proving my point. Jar'kai as you understand it is what a sword style or a lightsaber technique? If it's a technique it needs a actual combat style to be applied to.

2 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I don't disagree with this your proving my point. Jar'kai as you understand it is what a sword style or a lightsaber technique? If it's a technique it needs a actual combat style to be applied to.

I think you're going down the wrong path here. A jab is a punching technique that is used in many fighting styles, but that doesn't mean that there needs to be a jab-specific school of fighting. Expanding out, there are many punching techniques, and no specific "punching" art (even boxing is as much about footwork and body positioning as it is about punching). Jar'Kai is much like punching--it's the techniques of using two lighsabers, but those techniques can be incorporated into any of the named lightsaber styles (or even to the raw talent of a lightsaber user untrained in the formal styles)

1 minute ago, Eoen said:

Ah tramp, digging yourself a hole again, the article linked to is not canon, there is barely any canon info on Jar'kai. Under Canon your entire debate falls flat on its face. Jar'kai isn't even an ancient sword style in canon.

I don't disagree with this your proving my point. Jar'kai as you understand it is what a sword style or a lightsaber technique? If it's a technique it needs a actual combat style to be applied to.

The information from the Wookieepedia articles on Niman and Jar'Kai, are taken from canon, and from the SW Encyclopedias for each movie. Jar'Kai is a lightsaber style in and of itself that was then incorporated into other styles. Unlike what you asserted, Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman . That is the key issue we have. Jar Kai is its own fighting style. it was adopted by the Jedi at the same time as Niman was, but eventually was incorporated into the various main lightsaber forms, creating multiple variations, such as Ataru Jar'Kai, Makeshi Jar'Kai, Soresu Jar'Kai, etc. Even Niman adopted several Jar'Kai tachniques into itself. Thus, Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman. Modern Niman evolved from ancient Niman and simultaneously adopted several Jar'Kai techniques into itself.

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I think you're going down the wrong path here. A jab is a punching technique that is used in many fighting styles, but that doesn't mean that there needs to be a jab-specific school of fighting. Expanding out, there are many punching techniques, and no specific "punching" art (even boxing is as much about footwork and body positioning as it is about punching). Jar'Kai is much like punching--it's the techniques of using two lighsabers, but those techniques can be incorporated into any of the named lightsaber styles (or even to the raw talent of a lightsaber user untrained in the formal styles)

Exactly. however, in the case of Jar'Kai, it did indeed originate from its own specific formal school, and distinct fighting style.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I think you're going down the wrong path here. A jab is a punching technique that is used in many fighting styles, but that doesn't mean that there needs to be a jab-specific school of fighting. Expanding out, there are many punching techniques, and no specific "punching" art (even boxing is as much about footwork and body positioning as it is about punching). Jar'Kai is much like punching--it's the techniques of using two lighsabers, but those techniques can be incorporated into any of the named lightsaber styles (or even to the raw talent of a lightsaber user untrained in the formal styles)

Explain this further my contention is that it's a technique under modern practice. I'm not disagreeing with this " Rather, the other lightsaber forms incorporated Jar'Kai techniques into themselves. "

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The information from the Wookieepedia articles on Niman and Jar'Kai, are taken from canon, and from the SW Encyclopedias for each movie. Jar'Kai is a lightsaber style in and of itself that was then incorporated into other styles. Unlike what you asserted, Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman . That is the key issue we have. Jar Kai is its own fighting style. it was adopted by the Jedi at the same time as Niman was, but eventually was incorporated into the various main lightsaber forms, creating multiple variations, such as Ataru Jar'Kai, Makeshi Jar'Kai, Soresu Jar'Kai, etc. Even Niman adopted several Jar'Kai tachniques into itself. Thus, Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman. Modern Niman evolved from ancient Niman and simultaneously adopted several Jar'Kai techniques into itself.

Exactly. however, in the case of Jar'Kai, it did indeed originate from its own specific formal school, and distinct fighting style. 

The article is in the legends tab wookiepedia clearly differentiated between legends and canon and none of your argument is contained in the canon tab. Go read the canon article or read what I posted above from the Jedi path. Here it is again Niman is also the combat style associated with the use of twin blades. The art of wielding a sword in each hand is broadly known as Jar’Kai, after the Yovshin Swordsmen. Form VI acts as a foundation for this challenging practice. There is no entry for Jar'kai in the entire book besides this.

Canon link http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jar'Kai

Quote

Modern Niman evolved from ancient Niman and simultaneously adopted several Jar'Kai techniques into itself.

I have been saying this the entire time, thus making Jar'kai a subset of Niman.

sub·set

ˈsəbˌset/

noun

a part of a larger group of related things.

synonyms:subcategory, branch, subdivision, subsection, subsidiary

"the quartet is a subset of our orchestral group"

Was a quartet invented before the orchestral? Probably.

Why are they related because they're taught as a whole unit. Niman is also the combat style associated with the use of twin blades. The art of wielding a sword in each hand is broadly known as Jar’Kai, after the Yovshin Swordsmen. Form VI acts as a foundation for this challenging practice.

Quote

Even Niman adopted several Jar'Kai tachniques into itself. Thus, Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman. Modern Niman evolved from ancient Niman and simultaneously adopted several Jar'Kai techniques into itself.

I am not and never have been debating this, I agree with this.

1 minute ago, Eoen said:

The article is in the legends tab wookiepedia clearly differentiated between legends and canon and none of your argument is contained in the canon tab. Go read the canon article or read what I posted above from the Jedi path. Here it is again Niman is also the combat style associated with the use of twin blades. The art of wielding a sword in each hand is broadly known as Jar’Kai, after the Yovshin Swordsmen. Form VI acts as a foundation for this challenging practice. There is no entry for Jar'kai in the entire book besides this.

And Niman was created by a completely different group of people . That's the key difference here. Both styles are associated with two weapon fighting, but they are distinct styles. In fact, the Canon article for Jar'Kai never even mentions Niman. It simply states that Jar'Kai is a method for two lightsabers in combat. In fact, none of the practitioners listed in said article (whether dedicated, or simply dabblers) used Niman at all. Darth Maul was an Ataru practitioner, Obi Wan was a Soresu practitioner, Ahsoka is a Shien practitioner, etc. Pon Krell used his own unique style of Jar'Kai suited to his four arms. And, as for Niman, its canon article says this:

Quote

Form VI , also known as Niman was the sixth form of lightsaber combat used by members of the Jedi Order . It was used to combine double-bladed lightsaber combat with other Force abilities , like pushes and lifts . ^[1]

Once again, no mention of the other style. Niman and Jar'Kai, in new canon, are still completely different styles , just like in Legends.

14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And Niman was created by a completely different group of people . That's the key difference here. Both styles are associated with two weapon fighting, but they are distinct styles. In fact, the Canon article for Jar'Kai never even mentions Niman. It simply states that Jar'Kai is a method for two lightsabers in combat. In fact, none of the practitioners listed in said article (whether dedicated, or simply dabblers) used Niman at all. Darth Maul was an Ataru practitioner, Obi Wan was a Soresu practitioner, Ahsoka is a Shien practitioner, etc. Pon Krell used his own unique style of Jar'Kai suited to his four arms. And, as for Niman, its canon article says this:

Doesn't matter who created it, that's the past the only thing that matters is how it's used now. To further reiterate Niman is also the combat style associated with the use of twin blades. The art of wielding a sword in each hand is broadly known as Jar’Kai, after the Yovshin Swordsmen. Form VI acts as a foundation for this challenging practice. -Jedi path

I agree Jar'kai is used with other forms, because Jedi initiates learnt it in Niman class.

Quote

Once again, no mention of the other style. Niman and Jar'Kai, in new canon, are still completely different styles , just like in Legends.

Not according it Lucas Arts in the past decade, which is not canon now.

Seeing as this thread about Padawans , granted it's a necromantic thread, but still, has been totally derailed into a nitpick debate for like 3 pages worth of posts now, how about you guys either continue this in your own thread specifically designed for this pedantic debate, or just let it die?

Neither of your opinions on the subject actually matter at all, and it's basically a preference of historicity regarding a style, that is 100% fictional no matter how matter it did/didn't evolve, so there is no "right answer" truly.

I mean you guys have completely killed any actual on topic discussion of this thread entirely at this point. So let this zombiefied thread reanimate on topic, or let it die again, since it's no longer about Padawans at this point anyway.

Just now, Eoen said:

Doesn't matter who created it, that's the past the only thing that matters is how it's used now. To further reiterate Niman is also the combat style associated with the use of twin blades. The art of wielding a sword in each hand is broadly known as Jar’Kai, after the Yovshin Swordsmen. Form VI acts as a foundation for this challenging practice. -Jedi path

Jedi Path is also no longer canon, Regardless, Jar'Kai and Niman have two completely different sources. In Legends, both started out as unique styles created completely independently of one another. Both were adopted by the Jedi Order. Eventually, Jar'Kai was adopted into all of the other lightsaber forms. In fact, modern Niman itself was derived from all of the other five main lightsaber forms (except Makeshi), as well as the ancient two-weapon Niman and Jar'Kai. But in a far more relaxed fashion. That is why many modern Jar'Kai practitioners often use Niman as a foundation. Niman is a simpler, more relaxed style to start out with, whereas Jar'Kai is far more rigorous and complex. However, jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman. Modern Niman evolved from ancient Niman, Jar'Kai, and the other five main Lightsaber forms (except Makeshi).

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Jedi Path is also no longer canon, Regardless, Jar'Kai and Niman have two completely different sources. In Legends, both started out as unique styles created completely independently of one another. Both were adopted by the Jedi Order. Eventually, Jar'Kai was adopted into all of the other lightsaber forms. In fact, modern Niman itself was derived from all of the other five main lightsaber forms (except Makeshi), as well as the ancient two-weapon Niman and Jar'Kai. But in a far more relaxed fashion. That is why many modern Jar'Kai practitioners often use Niman as a foundation. Niman is a simpler, more relaxed style to start out with, whereas Jar'Kai is far more rigorous and complex. However, jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman. Modern Niman evolved from ancient Niman, Jar'Kai, and the other five main Lightsaber forms (except Makeshi).

I don't care who evolve from what it was never my claim, my claim is that there related. Niman is also the combat style associated with the use of twin blades. The art of wielding a sword in each hand is broadly known as Jar’Kai, after the Yovshin Swordsmen. Form VI acts as a foundation for this challenging practice. -Jedi Path Yes I know its not canon anymore but its still a official star wars product making it higher on the legends scale than a wookie article.

Just now, Eoen said:

I don't care who evolve from what it was never my claim, my claim is that there related. Niman is also the combat style associated with the use of twin blades. The art of wielding a sword in each hand is broadly known as Jar’Kai, after the Yovshin Swordsmen. Form VI acts as a foundation for this challenging practice. -Jedi Path Yes I know its not canon anymore but its still a official star wars product making it higher on the legends scale than a wookie article.

Yes, and all of the information from the wookieepedia articles are taken from sources which are just as official. However, the new Canon specifically states that Niman is a style that uses a double-bladed lightsaber , not two lightsabers. Now, Jar'Kai is the only two-weapon style, thus distinguishing them further from one another. and secondly, your primary argument in several of your previous posts, and what started this whole debate , has been that Jar'Kai evolved from Niman. This is false . So don't try to change the argument. Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman, Jar'Kai does not use the same techniques as Niman. Jar'Kai is simply a lot harder to learn than Niman , so many Jar'Kai practitioners start out learning the simpler form before taking on the challenge of learning Jar'Kai. However, the two styles are not, and never have been related. One is simply easier to learn than the other.

40 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, and all of the information from the wookieepedia articles are taken from sources which are just as official. However, the new Canon specifically states that Niman is a style that uses a double-bladed lightsaber , not two lightsabers. Now, Jar'Kai is the only two-weapon style, thus distinguishing them further from one another. and secondly, your primary argument in several of your previous posts, and what started this whole debate , has been that Jar'Kai evolved from Niman. This is false . So don't try to change the argument. Jar'Kai did not evolve from Niman, Jar'Kai does not use the same techniques as Niman. Jar'Kai is simply a lot harder to learn than Niman , so many Jar'Kai practitioners start out learning the simpler form before taking on the challenge of learning Jar'Kai. However, the two styles are not, and never have been related. One is simply easier to learn than the other.

Just because there taking facts from primary sources doesn't mean the unpaid volunteers always write consistent and concise articles. The old EU had a great many conflicting story lines, spread out over books, cartoons, comics, video games. Just throwing all of that information in the same article doesn't mean it's not going to be a jumbled mess.

Yes but we are not going by new canon in this debate the baseline is the wookie legends article. Yovshin Swordsmen are not canon for instance, so Jar'kai may not even be invented by them. I mean a Moon fell on Chewie. Ahsoka Tano is an in canon Niman practitioner she doesn't use a saber staff.

I don't believe I used the word evolved even once but if I did I was probably just reacting to you.

Niman is supposed to take 10 years or more to master it can very easily have advanced techniques most practitioners will never learn, Exar Kun comes to mind. My contention is Jar'kai is taught in Niman class at the academy, and saber staffs are really rare in the ranks of the Jedi.

I'm not sure the padawan survivor spec accurately reflects a clone wars padawan in the clone wars setting. There are two many dark times themed talents in the spec and redundant talents like the one that lets you learn lightsaber. Also having no bonus skills sucks for an apprenticeship.

It reflects a very young or inexperience padawan sort of.

1 hour ago, Eoen said:

Just because there taking facts from primary sources doesn't mean the unpaid volunteers always write consistent and concise articles. The old EU had a great many conflicting story lines, spread out over books, cartoons, comics, video games. Just throwing all of that information in the same article doesn't mean it's not going to be a jumbled mess.

Yes but we are not going by new canon in this debate the baseline is the wookie legends article. Yovshin Swordsmen are not canon for instance, so Jar'kai may not even be invented by them. I mean a Moon fell on Chewie. Ahsoka Tano is an in canon Niman practitioner she doesn't use a saber staff.

I don't believe I used the word evolved even once but if I did I was probably just reacting to you.

Niman is supposed to take 10 years or more to master it can very easily have advanced techniques most practitioners will never learn, Exar Kun comes to mind. My contention is Jar'kai is taught in Niman class at the academy, and saber staffs are really rare in the ranks of the Jedi.

Ahsoka Tano is a Shien practitioner. Her reverse grip is a dead giveaway on that. You have said that Jar’Kai is a subset of Niman, and yes, you have said it is derived from Niman as well, neither of which is true . Jar’Kai is its own style, one much more difficult to master than Niman. This is why many (but not all) Jar’Kai practitioners learn Niman first. It’s not because Jar’Kai is a subset of Niman, it’s because Niman is easier (but not necessarily easy) to learn. So no, Jar’Kai is not taught in the Niman class. Rather, Niman is sometimes taught in the Jar’Kai class to give some basic two weapon techniques before moving on to the much more challenging style of Jar’Kai. In fact, pretty much every Jar’Kai user has had to master at least one of the six main forms since it can be used in conjunction with all of them. Ahsoka uses Shien Jar’Kai.

As for the Yovshin swordsmen, according to Legends, yes, they did create Jar’Kai. The original Niman, while similar, was created by the Royal Macheteros.

Slowly starts to tear down posters

Oo-okay then. No fight.

10 minutes ago, Dayham said:

Slowly starts to tear down posters

Oo-okay then. No fight.

And I had 10k on Elias...... My bookie will never give that back. ?

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Niman, as a pure lightsaber combat style is indeed weaker. But that's not the main point regarding creating the "most efficient movie style Jedi." The main problem is what you consider a "standard" movie style Jedi and what I consider a "standard" movie style Jedi are two different things . Let's take Anakin, for example. Even in AotC Anakin was way more powerful than any other Padawan . He was already as powerful as many experienced Knights . What he lacked was discipline and humility. by RotS he was as powerful as many Masters, while he was still only a Knight. As such, he is never a "standard" Jedi. He always overpowers every other Jedi of his equivalent "rank" within the order. The same with Obi-Wan, though to a lesser degree.

As for having to take multiple specs, every lightsaber style needs to do that. This is because a proper Jedi Knight does need multiple Force Rating increases, and most Lightsaber specs don't grant that.

The only way to properly adjudicate the "most efficient" "movie style" Jedi is to set an agreed upon standard of exactly what skills (at what rank), what Force Rating, what talents, and what Force powers (and upgrades for each) are required to meet the base line standard. Then see which build can meet that specific standard with the least amount of XP. It's not a question of what lightsaber spec is more or less powerful, nor who can make the most powerful Jedi with the least XP.

If you're going to claim niman is weaker and not be discounted out of hand you're going to have to prove it with a duel.

Umm, *I* was claiming Anakin as of AotC (i.e. as a padawan) was the standard/benchmark by which Jedi KNIGHTS should be measured, that's *MY* argument not a counter to it.

We can't even agree on which definition of the word "standard" to use (typical vs benchmark), we're just not going to agree on which skills, talents, etc. are required to meet the "standard", therefore the only feasible measure of efficiency is how capable a build is for a specific amount of xp, in this case 700 earned xp. That can be judged *objectively* without us agreeing on a what capabilities the movie jedi standard should consist of.

Multiple lightsaber specs don't increase force rating because other than niman they don't provide force rating, so that's a completely bogus argument.

The "half lightsaber" specs, sentry, arbiter, padawan survivor, armorer (there might be others, but that's what I got off the top of my head) do, but most lightsaber specs would need 2 half lightsaber specs to address their deficiencies and get +2 force rating, and another way to get that is another lightsaber spec and hermit/seer/sage, so that's also bogus. The plus of going with 2 half lightsaber specs is that you'd get 3 total rather than 2 total dedications out of 3 specs.

But the real reason multiple lightsaber specs are required is to get the necessary *capabilities*, makashi, and shii cho have zero defenses against ranged attacks, ataru and shien have laughable ranged defenses, ataru also has laughable melee defense, shien can have reasonable melee defense with a suitable force rating and good enough attack roll, soresu has good defenses but weak offensive capabilities, niman has similar defensive capabilities to soresu and much better offensive capabilities (not to the level of ataru or makashi). Niman is the *least deficient* lightsaber spec which make it very tempting to NOT address those deficiencies... it lacks improved reflect (whether that "needs to" or merely "should" be addressed is debatable) and needs +1 force rating, it'd be beneficial to get more ranks of parry and reflect.

No, a head to head battle based on a set XP value doesn’t prove what makes an efficient standard Jedi build. All it does is show what build is more powerful (or lucky) for a given XP. It doesn’t settle the real issue. Sure, I could min-max the heck out of a character of a given XP value, but that would not equate to a typical movie style Jedi.

As for Anakin, you missed my point. Anakin was a Padawan in AotC, and was as powerful, if not more so , as many fully trained Jedi Knights with years more experience. How can that be considered the “standard”? A standard is the baseline requirement , not the epitome of what something could become. That is where you fall short. You look at the most powerful members of the order as the standard . If they were the standard, all Jedi would need to be that level of power to even be considered Jedi Knights. The standard is the minimum requirements for being a Jedi Knight, not the highest potential one can achieve. Thus, to determine the most efficient means of creating a true “standard“ Jedi, we first need to determine what the minimum requirements are and then build to those minimum requirements for the lowest XP cost . That is what would determine what combination would be the “most efficient”, though not necessarily the most powerful.

33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, a head to head battle based on a set XP value doesn’t prove what makes an efficient standard Jedi build. All it does is show what build is more powerful (or lucky) for a given XP. It doesn’t settle the real issue. Sure, I could min-max the heck out of a character of a given XP value, but that would not equate to a typical movie style Jedi.

As for Anakin, you missed my point. Anakin was a Padawan in AotC, and was as powerful, if not more so , as many fully trained Jedi Knights with years more experience. How can that be considered the “standard”? A standard is the baseline requirement , not the epitome of what something could become. That is where you fall short. You look at the most powerful members of the order as the standard . If they were the standard, all Jedi would need to be that level of power to even be considered Jedi Knights. The standard is the minimum requirements for being a Jedi Knight, not the highest potential one can achieve. Thus, to determine the most efficient means of creating a true “standard“ Jedi, we first need to determine what the minimum requirements are and then build to those minimum requirements for the lowest XP cost . That is what would determine what combination would be the “most efficient”, though not necessarily the most powerful.

The niman/sentry build is not min-maxed it's max-meaned, it's the most broadly capable has the highest average capabilities not the highest peak at the cost of glaring weaknesses. It's optimized for efficiency not combat.

However, the point of a duel between your shien seer build and my NOT min-maxed niman/sentry build is to give you an opportunity to prove that your claim that niman is a wussy lightsaber form specialization, which you effectively concede by chickening out of the duel.

No I didn't miss "your presumed point" anakin as a knight should NOT be the "standard" for jedi knights, but the "standard" for jedi masters, and anakin as a padawan should be the "standard" for jedi knights. I never proposed requiring all knights to measure up to anakin as a knight. Your implication that I did is a complete falsehood/lie

Another way that you utterly and completely fail is your use of the English language because "Standard" does not denote "minimum requirements" or even "average"

From websters dictionary

No, he isn’t. He’s overpowered by any standard. And, for the record, a “benchmark” is a baseline . It’s what is required for something or someone to meet in order to pass or qualify. Hence being the “standard”. It is The basis by which something is measured. If that person or thing doesn’t make the standard it doesn’t qualify. That is what a standard does. It sets the bar upon which things or people must meet.

To quote the Merrium Webster dictionary:

Quote

Definition of benchmark

1 a : something that serves as a standard by which others may be measured or judged

• a stock whose performance is a benchmark against which other stocks can be measured

b : a point of reference from which measurements may be made

c : a standardized problem or test that serves as a basis for evaluation or comparison (as of computer system performance)

For instance, the US Army standard for marksmanship with an M-16 is 23 hits out of 40 shots fired. That is the bare minimum required to pass qualification. That is the standard to meet.

Anakin is way above the bar in terms of power. He is not the standard. He is way above standard. If he were the standard by which all Jedi were evaluated, no Jedi would qualify.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, he isn’t. He’s overpowered by any standard. And, for the record, a “benchmark” is a baseline . It’s what is required for something or someone to meet in order to pass or qualify. Hence being the “standard”. It is The basis by which something is measured. If that person or thing doesn’t make the standard it doesn’t qualify. That is what a standard does. It sets the bar upon which things or people must meet.

To quote the Merrium Webster dictionary:

For instance, the US Army standard for marksmanship with an M-16 is 23 hits out of 40 shots fired. That is the bare minimum required to pass qualification. That is the standard to meet.

Anakin is way above the bar in terms of power. He is not the standard. He is way above standard. If he were the standard by which all Jedi were evaluated, no Jedi would qualify.

1) You are confusing the definitions of standard and standardized. A standardized test means that the test is the same, not that everyone performs the same on the test. Go learn English better then come back and we'll talk, in the meantime you're just wrong.

2) Anakin as a PADAWAN was the standard/model for jedi KNIGHTS to live up to or not in terms of capabilites. That is not by any stretch of the imagination saying that all jedi knights had to measure up to Anakin as a jedi knight. That you claim it is means you are either delusional or a liar.

11 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Does it? That would only really be true if he's willing to engage with you in the same manner. Tramp tends to make statements based upon his own understanding and then doesn't budge despite whatever comes against it. Over time, you might be the river that wears down his stone, but do you have the centuries to waste on making that progress?

Internet debates are spectator sports. You arent likely to change the find of your opponant. It will however likely sway spectators.