7 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I don't really see how a Jedi v. Jedi duel is going to show us a clear example of movie Jedi. If it has to be Clone Wars inspired, I'd much rather see both of them run a gauntlet through battle droids of various types.

It's about which style is the better fit as well. Since Tramp has asserted that Niman is the least combat focused Lighsaber tree and the inferior choice, it's now time to show it.

12 hours ago, SithArissa said:

Basic Jedi training gym. No obstacles, no outside interference. One chooses high or low. Other rolls a D10. If the 1st person guesses correctly they get to pick their choice of light or dark destiny points else the other does. Each character gets at least a single destiny point to spend. I will roll a D10 before each round, low initiative is vigilance, high is cool. Matches with be run with modified old navy rules "first guy to die (or pass out) loses!"

Tramp can just choose light or dark destiny points I don't care. Also the d10 for initiative only affects tramps build because mine has the constant vigilance talent.

On 8/2/2018 at 1:18 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

And, once again, you go overkill . You don't need three 3s and a 4. You don't even need a 4. What you have there is a "lead character" build, ala Obi-Wan, and Anakin. not a "typical" Jedi Knight.

Sentinel : Shien Expert / Seer (20 XP)

Agility 3, Brawn 2, Intellect 3, Cunning 3, Willpower 3, Presence 2. (120 XP)

Morality: 50

Shien Expert talents:

• Street Smarts (5)
• Reflect (5, 10, 20)
• Shien Technique (10)
• Grit (15)
• Improved Reflect (15)
• Saber Throw (20)
• Disruptive Strike (25)
• Supreme Reflect (25)

Total 150

Seer talents:

• Forager (5)
• Uncanny Reactions (5, 10)
• Keen Eyed (10)
• Rapid Reactions (10)
• Grit (15)
• Sense Danger (15)
• Force Rating (20, 25)
• Sense Advantage (20)
• Uncanny Reactions (10)
• Expert Tracker (5)
• Toughened (10)
• Forewarning (15)
• The Force is my Ally (20)
• Natural Mystic (25)
• Preemptive Avoidance (15)

Total XP: 225

Total XP for talents: 375

Force Powers:

Enhance :

• Base power (10)
• Control: Force Leap 1(10)
• Control: Force Leap 2 (10)
• Range: (10)
• Control Force Leap 3: (10)

Total XP: 50

Foresee:

• Base: (10)
• Control: Initiative (10)
• Strength: (5)

Total XP 25

Influence:

• Base: (10)
• Control Emotion: (10)

Total XP: 20

Move:

• Base: (10)
• Magnitude: (5)
• Strength: (10)
• Range: (5)
• Control Hurl: (10)
• Control secured mountings: (5)

Total XP: 45

Seek:

• Base: (10)
• Control Vigilance: (10)

Total XP: 20

Sense:

• Base: (10)
• Control Defense: (10)
• Control Thoughts: (10)

Total XP: 30

Total XP for Force Powers: 190

Ranked Skills:

• Deception: 2 (10) YYGFFF
• Perception: 1 (0) YGG
• Stealth: 2 (10) YYG
• Athletics: 1 (0) YGFFF
• Lightsaber: 4 (45) YYYG
• Knowledge (Lore): 1 (5) YGG
• Discipline: 3 (30) YYY
• Vigilance: 2 (15) YYG
• Charm: 1 (0) YGFFF
• Mechanics: 1 (0) YGG

Total Skill XP: 115

Total XP: 700

By Ogg Dude's calculation you have another 50 xp to spend... you didn't apply the jedi mentor bonus, and maybe I didn't get the build right (the way you wrote it up wasn't the easiest to read).

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ivnfv2ln4r22wwg/Tramp's_Movie_Jedi_Shien_Seer.pdf/file

I want this to be a fair fight so you can't claim the niman build had an unfair advantage.

12 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I think your evidence supports Tramp's position.

Read the whole article then. He’s saying because there was a sword style thousands of years ago called Jar’kai, that the more modern lightsaber technique Niman is there fore derived from it. Which I don’t even disagree with him on, it clearly states that in the article. So he’s for some reason repeatedly repeating that there was a sword style called Jar’kai.

He was also wrong about all other points he made like Ahsoka Tano during our thread which was initiated by him. This is the one he’s still clinging to.

However the the article also says that Niman and Jar’kai pretty much the same thing in modern Star Wars terms. It also states Jar’kai is a blanket term for all two lightsaber techniques no matter what there origin.

He he also seems to think that the word subset implies a chronological order.

So if a Taiwan do teacher teaches you a technique derived from Karate, he’s still teaching Taiwan do at the end of the day because he’s a Taiwan do instructor. When a Jedi teaches Jar’kai he’s not teaching an ancient sword technique he’s teaching a modern lightsaber technique derived from a previous disciplines teaching.

Though I have no doubt some Jedi went out of their way to learn fencing, sword fighting and other techniques.

sentry/niman

Thats as close to a jedi knight you'll get with low xp.

Throw seer or sage or ascetic and it gets real mean real quick.

1 minute ago, TheShard said:

sentry/niman

Thats as close to a jedi knight you'll get with low xp.

Never seen a movie Jedi who couldn’t fly a starfighter.

Give it enhance and your flying like a champ.

You'll get to use that 3fr on piloting.

Sure you won't be a skywalker but you'll be able to be close to obi.

26 minutes ago, TheShard said:

sentry/niman

Thats as close to a jedi knight you'll get with low xp.

Throw seer or sage or ascetic and it gets real mean real quick.

24 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Never seen a movie Jedi who couldn’t fly a starfighter.

23 minutes ago, TheShard said:

Give it enhance and your flying like a champ.

Hmm the niman/sentry build I posted already has enhance with the pilot upgrades so rolls 3 green + 3 white for piloting (unless the 2nd dedication gets put in agility which means 4 green + 3 white)

It's almost as if I had seen the same movies as you ?

49 minutes ago, TheShard said:

You'll get to us that 3fr on piloting.

Sure you won't be a skywalker but you'll be able to be close to obi.

Obi sure flies a lot, and military starfighters too for a guy who doesn’t like flying.

23 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

That sounds like you're trying to talk your way out of lightsaber duel that you know you're going to lose without losing face. By the way both specs provide dedication, and since the second one is used in intellect rather than willpower (so my build wasn't specifically built to duel) the only benefit I'll be getting from sentry is force rating and initiative grit and toughened... you won't be able to claim that it isn't the niman-disciple that beat your build.

By the way there are multiple definitions of "standard" I believe that obiwan and anakin in ep 2 set the "standard" by which the abilities of all jedi *knights* should be judged, it's the goal to aspire to even if you don't achieve it.

Anakin was nowhere near the “standard” Jedi in terms of skill or power. He was the Chosen One, for the Force’s sake; far more powerful than any Jedi of his day. That’s why Palpatine wanted to corrupt him so badly. The standard Jedi were the Quinlan Vos’ the Aayla Securas the Ki Adi Mundis, not Anakin, not Obi Wan, not Yoda, not Mace Windu. The “standard is the capability of the average Jedi of the day, not the most powerful of them.

21 hours ago, Dayham said:

Okay, details! Where is the fight taking place? Arena? Apartment? Alley? Bridge? Barricade? Shop? Ship?

To the death, there rounds, or any crit above 100?

Elias is fighting Tramp!

*Insert Matrix gif under 40 kBs here*

Not interested. Having two characters fighting it out doesn’t prove anything. Comparing stats to an actual “average” movie Jedi is really the only accurate measurement to go by.

7 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

By Ogg Dude's calculation you have another 50 xp to spend... you didn't apply the jedi mentor bonus, and maybe I didn't get the build right (the way you wrote it up wasn't the easiest to read).

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ivnfv2ln4r22wwg/Tramp's_Movie_Jedi_Shien_Seer.pdf/file

I want this to be a fair fight so you can't claim the niman build had an unfair advantage.

I deliberately chose not to use any “bonuses”.

6 hours ago, Eoen said:

Read the whole article then. He’s saying because there was a sword style thousands of years ago called Jar’kai, that the more modern lightsaber technique Niman is there fore derived from it. Which I don’t even disagree with him on, it clearly states that in the article. So he’s for some reason repeatedly repeating that there was a sword style called Jar’kai.

He was also wrong about all other points he made like Ahsoka Tano during our thread which was initiated by him. This is the one he’s still clinging to.

However the the article also says that Niman and Jar’kai pretty much the same thing in modern Star Wars terms. It also states Jar’kai is a blanket term for all two lightsaber techniques no matter what there origin.

He he also seems to think that the word subset implies a chronological order.

So if a Taiwan do teacher teaches you a technique derived from Karate, he’s still teaching Taiwan do at the end of the day because he’s a Taiwan do instructor. When a Jedi teaches Jar’kai he’s not teaching an ancient sword technique he’s teaching a modern lightsaber technique derived from a previous disciplines teaching.

Though I have no doubt some Jedi went out of their way to learn fencing, sword fighting and other techniques.

Modern Niman is derived primarily from ancient Niman, just as Jar’Kai is its own style that developed independently of ancient Niman. Both styles were adopted by the Jedi, and Niman evolved into the “ diplomat’s style of today, but with its own unique two weapon form, whereas Jar’Kai came to encompass many different two weapon fighting styles. Regardless, it did not evolve from Niman. The two are not related. They are as separate from each other as Niten Ichi Ryu is from Italian Two weapon fighting, which itself covers multiple different styles. To make the comparison, Niman would be akin to Niten Ichi Ryu, while Jar’Kai would be akin to the various Italian two weapon fighting styles.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Anakin was nowhere near the “standard” Jedi in terms of skill or power. He was the Chosen One, for the Force’s sake; far more powerful than any Jedi of his day. That’s why Palpatine wanted to corrupt him so badly. The standard Jedi were the Quinlan Vos’ the Aayla Securas the Ki Adi Mundis, not Anakin, not Obi Wan, not Yoda, not Mace Windu. The “standard is the capability of the average Jedi of the day, not the most powerful of them.

Anakin in episode 2, as a padawan, who had not yet even come close to hitting his peak, was in terms of his ability the standard that jedi knights should strive to live up to (not all would). Obiwan as of episode 2 also was not nearly as impressive as he was in episode 3, he was still a knight rather than a master. You seem to be neglecting the very important factor of time. In ep 3 anakin and obiwan stood out from Quinlan voss, etc., not so much in episode 2. Quinlan voss etc. were also very likely above average jedi. There is also more than one definition of standard, you seem to want to use typical rather than benchmark/reference point. If you're using the "typical" meaning then you are incorrect to apply that to Quinlan voss, Ki Adi Mundi, etc. who were also higher than the nameless typicals. PCs should outclass npcs and Quinlan voss etc. got enough face time in other works besides the movies to be PCs. But I don't recall Quinlan voss being in any of the movies so he's not really relevant to the discussion.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not interested. Having two characters fighting it out doesn’t prove anything. Comparing stats to an actual “average” movie Jedi is really the only accurate measurement to go by.

Separate issue, you said niman was a wussy/weakest lightsaber form, that's what you need to prove and effectively concede to being wrong about by backing down from the challenge.

Something you may have noticed but probably didn't connect the dots on... niman doesn't have improved reflect so a diplomat jedi that only took niman and not sentry/shien/soresu wouldn't stand much of a chance against a lot of blaster fire (e.g. genosis), even if they were reasonably capable at dueling. I imagine that jedi more focused on lightsabers wouldn't limit themselves to a single lightsaber specialization (they are probably also at least taking "half lightsaber" specs like sentry/padawan (survivor minus the survivor side of things). Also while niman practitioners dying en masse at genosis does prove they were weak against blasters (because their adversaries were using blasters from the BATTLEFIELD point of view, probably more than sufficient for dealing with blasters from a law enforcement point of view) does not prove they were weaker than average duelists because they did not fight other lightsaber wielders at genosis (it also doesn't prove they were good duelists, genosis is a non statement on that issue).

Like it or not, whether it matches your head cannon or not, in the ffg edition of the game, the niman disciple spec is better at dueling than shien expert, and soresu defender, probably on par with shii cho knight, and weaker than makashi duelist and ataru striker. Juyo berseker is really hard to compare to the other primary lightsaber specs.

The advantage of niman is primarily that it is a well rounded lightsaber form, it's not amazingly strong or weak offensively/defensively, it does pretty much everything adequately to the point where it's very tempting to have it be your only lightsaber spec, because unless something unexpected like the clone wars comes along, you don't really need to know more. With the other specs (with the possible exception of soresu), you can't really get by as a police force with a single lightsaber spec, you have to take something else to compensate for the weakness of your primary form or you're probably not going to live very long as a peace keeper, and since you have put the effort into compensating for your primary forms weakness you stand a better chance of surviving genosis.

That's an explanation that's perfectly consistent with both cannon and ffg game mechanics, and the message is that niman is better than average in the sense of having fewer weaknesses than other forms which makes it (too) tempting to not compensate for the weaknesses it does have. But if you pair it with sentry then the primary weaknesses are largely compensated for, which "coincidentally" makes niman/sentry the most efficient way to get abilities comparable to the archetypal movie jedi (those with the most screen time)

Sort of unrelated I think anakin had racer, padawan survivor, and shien expert at the time of ep 2, so he would have more than 700 earned xp

Obiwan probably had ataru striker (not completely filled out), padawan survivor, shien expert (not completely filled out), and teacher (not completely filled out) as of ep 2. so again more than 700 earned xp.

The 700 earned xp niman sentry build while "comparable to" (in the same ballpark as) them is not them, they definitely have more xp and a broader range of abilities.

I'm guessing that they might have picked up starfighter ace (anakin) or warleader or protector by the time ep 3 rolled around.

9 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Anakin was nowhere near the “standard” Jedi in terms of skill or power. He was the Chosen One, for the Force’s sake; far more powerful than any Jedi of his day. That’s why Palpatine wanted to corrupt him so badly. The standard Jedi were the Quinlan Vos’ the Aayla Securas the Ki Adi Mundis, not Anakin, not Obi Wan, not Yoda, not Mace Windu. The “standard is the capability of the average Jedi of the day, not the most powerful of them.

Not interested. Having two characters fighting it out doesn’t prove anything. Comparing stats to an actual “average” movie Jedi is really the only accurate measurement to go by.

I deliberately chose not to use any “bonuses”.

Modern Niman is derived primarily from ancient Niman, just as Jar’Kai is its own style that developed independently of ancient Niman. Both styles were adopted by the Jedi, and Niman evolved into the “ diplomat’s style of today, but with its own unique two weapon form, whereas Jar’Kai came to encompass many different two weapon fighting styles. Regardless, it did not evolve from Niman. The two are not related. They are as separate from each other as Niten Ichi Ryu is from Italian Two weapon fighting, which itself covers multiple different styles. To make the comparison, Niman would be akin to Niten Ichi Ryu, while Jar’Kai would be akin to the various Italian two weapon fighting styles.

Your analogy is flawed we are talking about thousands of years from the founding of these sword fighting schools until the clone wars. Given that amount of time there wouldn’t be any chance of the two disciplines taught under one school not merging, no matter how much distance or time is between the two systems originally.

I idea that the Jedi would maintain an ancient sword fighting system intact is silly, especially since the don’t use swords as their weapon of choice.

Within a few centuries of global trade we have seen many real world martial arts such as Taekwon do , Sambo, Savate, Krav Maga to name a few hybridize from traditional martial arts from all over the world; and then there’s the MMA where they all meet, and hybridize further. Fighters adopt techniques from other fighters all of the time and to not do so is potentially hazardous to their health.

2 hours ago, Eoen said:

Your analogy is flawed we are talking about thousands of years from the founding of these sword fighting schools until the clone wars. Given that amount of time there wouldn’t be any chance of the two disciplines taught under one school not merging, no matter how much distance or time is between the two systems originally.

I idea that the Jedi would maintain an ancient sword fighting system intact is silly, especially since the don’t use swords as their weapon of choice.

Within a few centuries of global trade we have seen many real world martial arts such as Taekwon do , Sambo, Savate, Krav Maga to name a few hybridize from traditional martial arts from all over the world; and then there’s the MMA where they all meet, and hybridize further. Fighters adopt techniques from other fighters all of the time and to not do so is potentially hazardous to their health.

While I agree with your real world analysis of blending traditions, I do caution relying on "reality" too much when dealing with magical space wizards with laser swords. There are a TON of things that would fail if we applied the Reality Hammer to them, when it comes to the franchise, so I always try and shy away from cherry picking things to apply it to, while avoiding others.

I am curious though, as I only followed this in passing, regarding the fighting styles, what does it matter? I mean, in an actual game sense, the bottom line is that the various lightsaber trees work how they work, regardless of what their historical evolution might be traced through. So, what does it matter if it is blended from other various traditions, or an isolated style that has been preserved? Not criticizing, just confused to the point of the debate is all. I mean, if the answer is just "we're star wars fans, so we endlessly debate minutia because that's what we do" ok, fine I guess, but I still don't see what it's got to do with any actual impact at a gaming table, in either direction.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

While I agree with your real world analysis of blending traditions, I do caution relying on "reality" too much when dealing with magical space wizards with laser swords. There are a TON of things that would fail if we applied the Reality Hammer to them, when it comes to the franchise, so I always try and shy away from cherry picking things to apply it to, while avoiding others.

I am curious though, as I only followed this in passing, regarding the fighting styles, what does it matter? I mean, in an actual game sense, the bottom line is that the various lightsaber trees work how they work, regardless of what their historical evolution might be traced through. So, what does it matter if it is blended from other various traditions, or an isolated style that has been preserved? Not criticizing, just confused to the point of the debate is all. I mean, if the answer is just "we're star wars fans, so we endlessly debate minutia because that's what we do" ok, fine I guess, but I still don't see what it's got to do with any actual impact at a gaming table, in either direction.

Your completely right of course this debate is over minutia that can only really even be discussed as legends material. It’s not like I‘m in a game with Tramp.

At this point however I’d like to see a Jar’kai universal spec, the lightsaber technique not the ancient sword discipline. ?

26 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Your completely right of course this debate is over minutia that can only really even be discussed as legends material. It’s not like I‘m in a game with Tramp.

At this point however I’d like to see a Jar’kai universal spec, the lightsaber technique not the ancient sword discipline. ?

Pick up a lightsaber. Now pick up a second lightsaber. Make an attack with both weapons. Now say. "Whoa! I know Jar'Kai!"

17 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Pick up a lightsaber. Now pick up a second lightsaber. Make an attack with both weapons. Now say. "Whoa! I know Jar'Kai!"

Nah, if it was that easy there wouldn't even be a term for it.

8 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Nah, if it was that easy there wouldn't even be a term for it.

If you believe that, you've never studied martial arts. There are names for everything, no matter how mundane. Every hand grip has a name. Every stance and step taken from it has a name too. This doesn't mean you have to learn those names to do it.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

If you believe that, you've never studied martial arts. There are names for everything, no matter how mundane. Every hand grip has a name. Every stance and step taken from it has a name too. This doesn't mean you have to learn those names to do it.

I have studied Jujitsu, and Teawon do, though not to a high degree. We didn’t really concern our self’s with names in my Jujitsu classes, though Teawon do had lots of terminology. Jar’kai as discribed is an entire martial art or at least huge discipline within an entire martial art not just a technique.

On 8/5/2018 at 2:47 AM, Eoen said:

Jar'kai on that says at the top This article is about the dual blades fighting technique .

Technique is as technique does, but again, it's fairly meaningless to worry about the semantics.

33 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Technique is as technique does, but again, it's fairly meaningless to worry about the semantics.

I think that Wookiee article rather poorly written, or edited. There seems to be a great deal of confusion about Jar’kai and it’s relationship with Niman and other lightsaber forms. It implies Jar’kai is used with all lightsaber forms while simultaneously being an ancient martial art or wholly incorporated either into Niman or being a blanket term that includes all forms of two lightsaber fighting. It’s also clear some part of the fan base see the terms Jar’kai and Niman as interchangeable because when you look up any other lightsaber form on wookipedea it doesn’t say you may be looking for Jar’kai.

Also the Jar’kai article says Ahsoka is a practitioner, while the Niman article says she’s a Niman practitioner, but both mention two weapon fighting.

I really don't care what they are called personally, or whether Jar'kai is it's own thing or part of something bigger, I would however like to see some two weapon melee talents in the game. My main objection is Tramp trying to enforce his head canon on everyone else.

52 minutes ago, Eoen said:

My main objection is Tramp trying to enforce his head canon on everyone else.

The thing to remember there is that he can say whatever he likes, but you can always ignore what he has to say if it doesn't fit your Star Wars.

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The thing to remember there is that he can say whatever he likes, but you can always ignore what he has to say if it doesn't fit your Star Wars.

I do ignore him, but rebutting him gives me a chance exercise my formal debate and logic training I paid for.