The Dodge action specified that you may attempt to dodge the attack if you weraware of it. This has caused some discussions in my group, with players claiming they just need to either see their attacker, or even just know he is there.

I'd like some input to hoe other GMs handle this, as I find adding in Awareness rolls for each disputed attack slows things down.

For ranged fire my view is this: The players are not Neo from the Matrix, they do not dodge bullets. What the Dodge action allows for is throwing oneself to the side if you see some thug bearing his weapon to point at you . If you wait until he pulls the trigger, you're too late.

This means that if someone is pointing his weapon at you, either a sniper from a distance or across the table in the bar, you can't dodge. Some might argue that a scrutiny test might allow you to predict the moment he will squeeze the trigger, but this will definately not work for the sniper 200 metres away.

For melee combat you might find yourself outnumbered and surrounded. Would you allow a person to dodge the blow struck from behind? If you are circling and trying to cover all directions, I'd say yes, but what if you're trying to break through a bunch of mooks to get to the boss-man behind? The mooks are virtually ignored/unopposed as they stab from behind. Would you allow a dodge or a parry here?

Scenario 1:

Bob is hiding behind a truck, and wants to run across the street and through a doorway. To get there is a one-round Run action. Bob knows that down the street are 2 people, lying in 2 different positions, waiting to shoot him. He runs. He gets shot. He claims his dodge.

Bob was "aware" of the attack in the sense that he expected it. He can not possibly know exactly at what instant the bullets will hit home, however. Trying to look for movement, muzzle flashes or whatnot from the different positions way down the road while running in a different direction is difficult? Impossible?

Scenario 2:

Greg is sitting in a booth at The Happy Heretic , discussing payment for a smuggling operation. Suddenly he feels a barrel poking into his ribs as the man beside him makes a subtle point of persuasion. Greg figures "Well, I'm most definately aware of this barrel, so I'll just dodge, whip out my sawn off with my Quick-Draw and give him bith barrels at point-blank"

Scenario 3:

Rob decides to Charge past/through 2 mooks, to attack Harry the Heretic standing right behind them. They obviosly try to whak him with their Nasty Pointy Things as he charges past, and follow up by turing around and hitting him in tha back as he engages their boss. Rob is now engaged in combat with Harry, but does he posess the superhuman perception to be aware of the mooks manouvers and attacks behind him?

Scenario 4:

Mike is involved with a pitched battle against some gangers, and has taken cover behind a fallen rockcreet pillar. His enemies are similarly holed up behind cover some distance away. Every round, he pops his head and autpistol over the top of the pillar, and squeezs of a burst against his enemies. And they, similarly, shoot back.

So he gets shot. Most of the hits will actually hit the cover, but some might hit his head as he pops it over the top. Can he dodge? What if one of the enemies does not worry about his own cover, but stayts up, pointing his rifle at the point where Mikes head will pop up. He Aims, and Delays. When Mikes head appears, he calls in his Delay action and sends a Called Shot against Mikes noggin. Is Mike aware of this? In the fraction of a second he has to observe his surroundings as he pops his head up? Does he get to "dodge" by retracting his head?

Barring snipers and enemies that the character is completely unaware of, I believe in the heat of combat players should be able to dodge anyone that is actively engaging them. I had a GM that started having us make awareness checks for every single enemy that we might not be aware of and #1 it bogged down combat immensely and #2 it takes all the fun out of combat when you feel like there is no chance of surviving.

Honestly, DH combat is deadly enough without taking the dodge away, i mean for the most part the player can only dodge once unless they have step aside so if your swarming them with gangers it should be no trouble hitting them a few times.

Yeah, I basically agree with what Emprah Horus said. Saying you have to guess when the trigger is going to be pulled using scrutiny is to miss the point - the dodge skill is the ability to guess when the trigger is going to be pulled. It is a mixture of reflexes, physical agility, combat awareness and judgement. The skill percentage includes an assumption that you are in combat, i.e. a chaotic, messy, noisy swirl of events. The reason you have to roll dodge is because there is a chance you were looking the wrong way when the trigger was pulled, or were caught flat-footed for some reason. If you succeed, it means you weren't.

Similarly if an attack comes from "behind" is an open question, because in melee you are constantly moving around. Just because your model is facing one way doesn't mean he is literally standing stationary facing in that direction - he is likely ducking and weaving and constantly changing facing to fend off the guys who are dog-piling him. But the fact he has only one, or perhaps if he is very good indeed, two dodges, means he isn't likely to avoid them all.

Exceptions are things like snipers, invisible opponents and so on, where you couldn't feasibly anticipate the attack.

Well... what they said.

Its a strong point: reducing the opportunities to dodge removes "value" from the skill and its XP investment, and does not produce "fun". Any additional tests and restrictions will slow down gameplay, and feel like punishments by the players.

However, I come from the WFRP world, and carry a little baggage from this system, which after all is like DH's big brother. In WFRP you cannot dodge ranged attacks. Period. Further, a characters moving about, evading and trying very much not to be hit is taken into account with the WS/BS test to hit in the first place, the rules actually state that a character who is not moving, either unaware of danger or not bothering to evade, will automatically be hit. The Dodge skill represents additional skill and training, letting you pull off improbable moves of evasion and confounding the enemy.

With melee, this worked out well. We se this all the time in movies and in Conan comics, the hero moves with lightening speed and ducks at the last second, while the less skilled "redshirts" die by the numbers. However, nobody dodges crossbofire, let alound lasshots or high-velocity, solid projectiles.

With this baggage, I find it strange to think one should be able to "dodge" a burst from an Autocannon 250m away, when all you can make out is a vague shape of the gunner.

As for a melee where you fight enemies on all sides, I agree. Penalizing the character with undodgeable blows would be mean, as the enemies are already racking up outnumbering bonuses.

I guess one could just say that the Dodge skill represents a general aptitude at evasion, making for a harder target. Mechanically then, you may always dodge (unless surprised/unaware of danger), and increased number of misses just goes to show you move like the wind. This would be the simplest ruling to follow, but there are still situations I am unsure of, ie Scenarioes 2 and 4 above. Suggestions?

Scenario 2 looks like a case of common sense prevailing over the RAW; just as you can't miss a shot where you literally have the gun pressed against the subject's body, such a shot can't be dodged either.

Scenario 4, however, is handled fine by the RAW. Successful dodge check = he ducked his head back just at the right moment. Even if the person was sitting there aiming, there's a reaonable chance you could evade their shot. Think of it this way - if there's any scope at all for the character to vary where he pops up from cover (in the case of the column, left side vs right side), there's scope for the sniper to be aiming at the wrong spot. Beyond that it's just a test of whose reflexes are quicker.

I'm inclined to go along with your suggestions, however there is one "test" I always try to administer to any rule or interpretation of rules: Will it work if you reverse the positions of the actors?

I find that often my players argue one way when they find themselves on the receiving end, and another when on the distributing end

"What? I don't even get to dodge? I am Supa-Fast!". Righteous indignation at Evil GM.

"No way would he have chance to doge! I am pointing the gun in his face for Fraks sake!". Righteous indignation at Evil GM.

To avoid dissent and arbitrary decisions, I would like to arrive at a simple set of rules to determine wether or not a character may attemt to dodge. And I'll take Simple and Easy over Realistic

But the "You may always Dodge unless blissfully unaware" approach still has me unconvinced: Covering someone with a gun becomes a little meaningless if you are only able to fire a single shot (Delay reserves a half action each round) and a modestly proficient opponent fith a Fate Point to spend can comfortably rely on dodging the shot.

This situation can result in endless discussions about Quick Draw, Delays, Initiative orders, Rapid Reactions and whatnot, and is somewhat beyond the scope of this thread. But as a general principle I feel that succesful use of tactics (either by the PCs or the opponents) leading to one party "getting the drop" in the other, should provide a definitive advantage. Having guns aimed at you by people itching to pull the trigger should at the very least present some penalties to the dodge attempt.

I'd like to have the cake, and eat it too.

On a tangent: Bob is taking a Full Action Aim, intending to shoot Greg on his next turn. His attack will "follow immediately" so this should not be a problem. However, Greg whips out his Shoota and pops a shot at Bob before Bob gets to take his carefully aimed shot. Bob dodges as a free action. Does Bob still get the benefits from his careful Aim?

But the "You may always Dodge unless blissfully unaware" approach still has me unconvinced: Covering someone with a gun becomes a little meaningless if you are only able to fire a single shot (Delay reserves a half action each round) and a modestly proficient opponent fith a Fate Point to spend can comfortably rely on dodging the shot.

Um... that's exactly what Fate Points are for. If someone spends one of his usually at most three "have a second chance" attempts per evening, he deserves a chance. After all, how many action movies have you seen where the protagonist through his good reflexes (and the bad guy's poor ones) is able to get out of exactly this situation?

Having guns aimed at you by people itching to pull the trigger should at the very least present some penalties to the dodge attempt.

Having a gun aimed at you by people itching to pull the trigger already gives a +50 bonus (Full Action aim, Point Blank range) to the shooter. If that weapon happens to be accurate, Full Auto or Scatter capable, this will hurt and there's at most a 50% chance of not getting horribly minced.

Cifer said:

Those bonuses do not affect my chance to dodge. Remember, you may only make a standard attack, as the Delay Action required to shoot if the target decides to move only allows for a Half Action. Aim and Range bonuses affect your chance to hit, but not my chance to dodge. The Accurate quality may add to the Damage IF you hit and I can't Dodge.

Cifer said:

Well, Fate Points can be spent to re-roll a failed test, but I don't see tham as a "get out of jail free" card that can let you out of any situation. If you can't dodge an attack (if your opponent used a Feint, for example), a Fate Point won't help you.

I can agree with the movie-referance, but you don't really need super-stats to be able to dodge comfortably safely. A regular agility focused character will after only a few rank have Dodge +10 at 40 Ag. Throw in a Fate Point and you're almost certain to dodge one, single attack. Saying that John McClaine could do it would be saying that a 8000+ XP Assassin should be able to do it. Thats fine, he would have lotsa lovely talents and high stats to reflect it too.

I guess my gripe is that you can relatively easily (ab)use the RAW to negate the effects of tactics and clever manouvering. Se this old thread for more musings on this subject. Why bother sneaking up on people, getting the drop on them and pointing a loaded gun at them to aid your "persuasion", if a simple Quick Draw and Dodge will get them out of it scott-free? At the very least one should impose a difficulty on the Dodge test. Some form of opposed test would be appropriate, but would mean re-writing the rules too much. However, Dodge difficulties are adressed in the RAW (Dodging while Prone, in deep snow, etc are given penalites)

^^^^ Well, if you were to sneak up on someone and they failed to pass an awareness test then they wouldn't get a dodge when you pulled the trigger because they are unaware.

I can dodge bullets baby!

unless you don't know the attack is coming (ie someone is hidden or surprises you) you can attempt to dodge the shot. thats how we play.

just as you can't miss a shot where you literally have the gun pressed against the subject's body, such a shot can't be dodged either

perhaps you can't miss, but most assuredly, the gun can jam

you can't have your cake and eat it too!

what a stupid saying. what the hell am I going to do with cake I cant eat?

___________

as far as delay goes, we use a house rule for our delay actions. You can delay, and get a half action, OR you can delay, and get a FULL action, however you sacrifice your reaction (ie you cannot dodge or parry until next turn). just something to throw out for those interested.

Smokes said:

Actualy, if you have a gun you should never, ever have it pressed against someone you intend to shoot. For that matter, you should never, ever be within arms reach of someone you have drawn a gun on. That's just a real good way to have the gun taken from you and used against you even after you pull the trigger (contrary to popular holllywood myth, people don't die instyantly from gun shots and, in fact, due to adrinaline and a host of other chemicles, many don't realize they've even been shot for untill a few seconds or minuts have passed... pleanty of time to grab the gun and shoot you with it as well). Of course, being that close with a weapon opens up the target being able to hit your gun asside, twist out of it's way, etc, all of which could be assumed to be a part of the Dodge check.

Smokes said:

Ah, but 12 hours after you eat your cake, you will no longer have it, will you? ;-p

Well, Fate Points can be spent to re-roll a failed test, but I don't see tham as a "get out of jail free" card that can let you out of any situation. If you can't dodge an attack (if your opponent used a Feint, for example), a Fate Point won't help you.

I can agree with the movie-referance, but you don't really need super-stats to be able to dodge comfortably safely. A regular agility focused character will after only a few rank have Dodge +10 at 40 Ag. Throw in a Fate Point and you're almost certain to dodge one, single attack.

No, you're 75% certain. Generally, that's about 25% less certain than I'd prefer being when it comes to that funny "Turn around real slow, mistah" situation, since as I've explained above, not making that dodge will usually maim the character if he is up against anything with either Accurate or Full Auto (oh, and dodging a FA burst with somewhere around 4-5 DoS isn't fun either).

Saying that John McClaine could do it would be saying that a 8000+ XP Assassin should be able to do it. Thats fine, he would have lotsa lovely talents and high stats to reflect it too.

Er... are we talking about the John McClane who was 11 years on the force in the first movie? The one who didn't receive any Training From Hell from a "Learn or Die" society like the Inquisition? That's more like third rank in my book - which, funnily enough, is where the first careers are getting the +10 dodge.

I am almost convinced by some of this. It does feel as though, if you have a gun pointed at someone at point-blank range and have taken a full-round action to aim, the attack should be undodgeable.

But I think I've worked out why the above feeling is wrong.

In game terms, the shooter takes a full round action to aim, then pulls the trigger. He has a +50% chance to hit. Now that he has pulled the trigger, the target has a chance to dodge (which may incidentally be FPable, though given that he may have a 50% chance to evade a near certain-death situation, the FP feels like the icing rather than the cake).

In real life, the shooter aims, and then there is a period of time - possibly less than a second - in which he is waiting to take the shot, lining it up, making sure he won't miss. If the target realises he is about to get shot at this point, he can move aside, thus ruining the shooter's careful aim. In fact in many ways, you could argue for an aware target getting a bonus to their dodge against anyone who takes the time to aim, provided that they don't themselves take an action in the interim, in effect "aiming" their dodge. But I don't in fact wish to argue this.

In other words, life doesn't have an initiative order.

Don't forget that dodge is

1. only allowed once per round (barring special talent)

2. Only avoids 1 bullet per degree of success. Thus a semi or fully auto attack could still get hits even if the target successfully dodged, as long as the shooter got more degrees of success than the target.

Basically, if the target knows there is an enemy and their approsmiate location they can dodge. Yes, even if the shooter had a gun to their head. Dodge is a reaction. It represents reflexes and timing, as well as avoidance. For example, the target notices the minute tighening of the trigger finger and jerks to the side (in reaction) just before the gun goes off. If his dodge roll succeeds, he beat the trigger squeeze ... if it fails, he was too slow.

Scenarios

1. Bob sees a reflected glint of light as the shooter shifts his rifle to take a shot and leaps to the side/dives for cover fast enough (or otherwise feels/knows the enemy is about to shoot). Or, Bob just naturally runs across the street in a manner that makes it difficult to be hit (using cover). Both could represent the results of dodging.
2. As mentioned earlier in my post. Greg reads the man's body language, realizes the man is about to shoot his gun, and throws himself to the side just in time to avoid the shot. Recovering quicker than the surprised shooter (due to Quick draw) Greg whips out his own weapon and returns fire. Quite plausible.
3. Yes. He is in combat with all of them, and may strike all of them. Remember, he can only attempt to dodge once per round unless he's got a talent allowing a second reaction. So, he can't dodge all of his opponents' attacks, only one opponent's attack. Obviously, that opponent is the one he happened to be concentrating on/aware of more than the others during the round. Not particularly superhuman per se.
4. Yes. Mike obviously reacted faster. He popped his head out, noticed the enemy aiming at him, and ducked back in before the shooter got an accurate enough aim, or moved before the bullet struck where his head was. Etc. Or perhaps even that the dodge represented that Mike *didn't* stick his head out in the exact same location, different enough position that the bullet missed.

If a target is aware that there is danger, and has a reasonable idea where the danger is coming from, he has the opportunity to dodge. Being aware of danger, I think, is the most important condition. Against a sniper, for example, normally a target wouldn't get a dodge. Why? because the target is unaware and is not expecting danger. Now, if the target was in a combat situation and knew there was a sniper/enemy in the area, he should get a dodge because he is moving cautiously and is alert for attacks. Dodging isn't necessarily a Matrix-style bullet-time maneuver. It represent also can represent reflexes and reaction speed and intuition where the target avoids the area where the bullets *will* be. You could even chalk the results of dodging up in some part to luck.

Cardinalsin said:

Indeed! Something we must all keep in mind.

Oh, and an average (30) shooter who lines up a shot for a full round at point blank range would have an 80% hit rate barring dodge. ;-)

Either way, what you said about the target moving and thus mucking up the aiming the other is a great explanation of dodging. I think it's best not to get caught up on BS hitting then target dodging the shot. What you want to focus on is the end results -did the shot hit or miss? Anything else can be explained away in the narative. After all, when one guy's moving erratically trying not to get shot while another keeps aiming and pulling the trigger but not hitting the erratic fella, what is at fault? Did the shooter just miss is shot or did the fella move out of harms way? Dose it matter which it was? The guy was moving which meant the chance of getting hit was reduced. In what way it was reduced isn't all that relevant to the end results (and no one would ever know the truth of it anyways even if said truth was so clean cut).

In real life gun fights at point blank distances, there is still a hell of a lot of bullets not finding their target. A chance that you'll miss with your BS check plus the chance that the target will dodge if you succeed mirrors this rather well.

Good points, fellas!

I think I will go with "Fun, Drama and Heroic Cinema Action" over "Boring, Drudging Reality" here, and allow dodges to all attacks that did not surpise the character. Period.

I'll accept the excellent suggestion put forth by several people to treat Dodge as a mix of evasive manouvers, luck and aptitude for keeping ones head down and out of trouble. Just a more tricky person to hit, basically.

However, I am quite certain I will impose modifiers to Dodge tests. After all, some attacks will be easier to anticipate than others.

From the Core Rulebook, p. 198, "Combat Difficulty Summary"

Attacking or Dodging whilst in the mud or heavy rain: - 10
Dodging whilst Prone: - 20
Attacking or Dodging whilst in deep snow: - 30

Building on this I might impose a -10 penalty to Dodge from a "static situation". I need a better name here, but I am refering to the situation where someone has surprised you but does not shoot you in tha back as Emprah_Horus suggests, but rather says "Reach for the Sky, boys!". You're standing still, he's got his gun aimed at your noggin, and you decide to move rather than comply.

A -20 Penality might apply if the opponent with the gun is behind you, so you can't even see his finger or read his body language.

Suggestions on this approach?

That certainly sounds reasonable.

A modifier for not knowing the location of the enemy; A modifier for close/cramped quarters; etc.

Be wary of imposing TOO high of penalties. Remember that most skills are pretty low and even trained assassins with dodge bonuses typically don't have more than a 50-60 chance base, and most hover around a 30-40 base dodge (if they're skilled in it).

But it *does* give the players at least a chance to succeed, which IMO is the important thing. Makes it more heroic, especially if they make that 10% chance to dodge, etc