A quick question about whether multiple instances of the same plot 'stack' or are just considered duplication:

The Winds of Winter

Let's say that you're playing in a three player melee and it is currently Winter. Your two opponents have both played The Winds of Winter as their plot card ( While it is Winter, opponent's characters get -1 STR ). Obviously each of their characters are at -1 STR, but are my characters now at -2 STR (cumulative effect) or just at -1 STR (duplicated effect)?

Laban Shrewsbury said:

There are no "duplicate effects" in this game. Each card is treated as a separate card and a separate effect. So in your example, all of your characters have 2 separate "-1 STR" effects being applied to them, for a cumulative total of -2 STR. Pretty much everything in this game is cumulative. (So if each of your opponents are running the Kings of WInter Agenda, too, you have the potential of losing 2 cards each round, too, depending on relative hand sizes and which player's Agenda resolves first.)

Thanks ktom. You must love answering all these dumb questions

So, if both players reveal Valar Morghulis , characters are killed twice (two saves are needed to rescue a character).

And with 2 x Golden Tooth Mines on table Lannister player draws two cards when he reveals plot.

Correct?

Yep.

Rogue30 said:

~And if two separate players play Rhaegar's harp on the same character, that character is twice the bastard it would normally be (or in Jon Snow's case, 3x the bastard )

Twn2dn said:

~And if two separate players play Rhaegar's harp on the same character, that character is twice the bastard it would normally be (or in Jon Snow's case, 3x the bastard )

~ Better yet, put them on Sansa. Then she's once, twice, three times a lady.

yeash.......................................................................

Two times deadly on the same character thus counts as two times deadly?

C

Castorp said:

Well, yes and no.

If you have a character with Deadly and use a "character gains Deadly" effect on it then yes, technically the character has "two times Deadly." So an opponent would need two "character loses Deadly" effects to take Deadly away from that character. So in that sense, yes, a character with Deadly twice would be two times Deadly. The same is true for Stealth, Renown, a military icon, etc.

However, there is no practical advantage in game play for having Deadly (or Stealth, Renown, a military icon, etc.) twice. The rules for resolving Deadly say that if there are more characters with Deadly on the attacking side, the defender must choose and kill a defending character. So when you go to count how many attacking/defending characters you have with Deadly, having it twice on a single character does not give you more participating characters with the keyword. So having the keyword twice does not make a single character "super Deadly" or anything like that.

Similarly, a character with Stealth twice cannot bypass more than one defender, a character with Renown twice only gets one power and a character with 2 military icons only attacks or counts its STR once in a military challenge.

So in that sense, having Deadly twice does not make a character any more "Deadly" than having it once.

I agree with above, but as for military icon, what about that in Rules Clarification (Lasting Effects Conflict, page 13):

A character can never have more than one icon of a specified kind.

And what if there's a two-time-Deadly character and a Feral Pack in play? Does the character lose all Deadly keywords or just 1?

eloooooooi said:

I´m basically just referring to what what Ktom already wrote. Feral Packs effect is a "Charachter loses deadly" effect. So one feral pack removes one instance of deadly, tow feral packs will remove two instances of deadly. So you add/subtract keywords just like you would add/subtract icons on charachters.

Rogue30 said:

True, but keep in mind that if a character has a printed military icon and has an effect that says "gains a military icon" on it, you will still need two separate "character loses a military icon" effects to remove the icon completely. That's because, as p. 13 says, you always start over from scratch when calculating these things. Said another way, even though:

"1 military icon" + "1 military icon" = 1 (effective) military icon,

you can't continue from there and say "1 (effective) military icon" - "1 military icon" = 0 military icons. You have to go all the way back to "1 + 1 - 1 = 1".

That clarification is there mostly because there are effects that say "choose a character with more than 1 icon." So people were saying "that character has 2 military icons, so it has more than 1 icon." The clarification stops that line of reasoning.

Just the way I thought. Thanks!

ktom said:

Ok. Now it is less confusing for new players like me :-)

So, basically: character is deadly or not. You just have to check sum of all "gains" and "loses" every time you need.

Rogue30 said:

Exactly. Having "twice Deadly" only matters when you are checking the sum of "gains" and "loses." Because of the way Deadly resolves, you either have it or you don't when figuring out if a defending character dies.