Last we played, one of my players kept wanting to knock opponents prone. She has a Performer/Infiltrator, so she's a light melee combatant. I pointed out the Knockdown Talent on the Infiltrator spec sheet. I also told her that some weapons, not many, have the Knockdown quality.

With Knockdown Talent, it takes a Triumph to put an opponent prone. (Plus additional Triumphs for larger Silhouettes.)

With Knockdown Quality, it takes 2 Advantages to put an opponent prone. (Plus additional Advantages for larger Silhouettes.)

I would like anyone to have the opportunity to knock an opponent prone. I suppose I could simply say you can do that by spending 2 Triumphs, but I think that's very expensive.

So I'm thinking, as a house rule, making the Knockdown Talent cost the same as the Quality: 2 Advantages. And allowing anyone to spend a single Triumph to knock an opponent prone.

Is this a bad idea?

There's no need for a house rule if you just want players to be able to narratively trip an opponent or punch him in the face and knock him flat. All unarmed attacks have the Knockdown quality (p. 211 ECRB). If they want to knock someone prone, have them make a Brawl check for an unarmed attack, spend 2 advantage, and knock them down.

When making an unarmed combat check using Brawl, the character's attack has a base damage of his Brawn rating, a range of engaged, a critical rating of 5, and the Disorient 1 and Knockdown qualities.

The knockdown talent lets you apply that quality to any melee attack, including a vibroknife, and that is why it costs a triumph.

Not just unarmed, but any Brawl attack can cause knockdown. Brawl weapons add any qualities they have to the standard unarmed qualities (Disorient 1, Knockdown), besides adding damage and, usually, increasing crit rating. So gloves, knuckles, and vamblades can all do knockdown.

Ohhhh... I never caught that 'bout Brawl attacks. Oops.

And this is why we ask on the message boards if a house rule is a good idea, or a bad idea.

Thanks, guys!

No problem, it is easy to miss. I've always wondered why they didn't also put the unarmed attack on the Melee Weapons chart with the brawling weapons, or also add the unarmed attack quality (Disorient 1, Knockdown) to the brawling weapons (like brass knuckles, etc.).

Given that the Disorient talent allows for a character to activate the Disorient X quality (X = ranks in talent) with any combat check, and given that Unarmed attacks only carry the Disorient 1 quality, I am perfectly fine with the Knockdown talent simply granting your melee attacks "Knockdown" quality, allowing for 2 Advantage to be spent.

If you sense some imbalance there, maybe 3 Advantage is more appropriate. But for my games, a Triumph is too rich, and I've knocked it down to 2 Advantage myself.

I am perfectly fine with the Knockdown talent simply granting your melee attacks "Knockdown" quality, allowing for 2 Advantage to be spent.

This is the way to do it in my games too. That way the character with the Knockdown talent doesn't have to put ranks into their melee skill in order to use their talent.

Given that the Disorient talent allows for a character to activate the Disorient X quality (X = ranks in talent) with any combat check, and given that Unarmed attacks only carry the Disorient 1 quality, I am perfectly fine with the Knockdown talent simply granting your melee attacks "Knockdown" quality, allowing for 2 Advantage to be spent.

If you sense some imbalance there, maybe 3 Advantage is more appropriate. But for my games, a Triumph is too rich, and I've knocked it down to 2 Advantage myself.

I think the core balance concern is that the majority of the weapons that have the Knockdown quality tend to have a pretty low damage output.

Off the top of my head, the best damage you can get with a Brawl-based weapon is Brawn+2, with the average being Brawn+1. In contrast, many Melee weapons tend to hang around in the Brawn+2 or Brawn+3, on top of having Pierce and/or Vicious on top of that. Lords of Nal Hutta introduced some absolutely insane Melee weapons.

Disorient is simply one setback die for a number of rounds, which can be worrisome if rolling a small dice pool, and can largely overcome with the Aim action, as the boost die is generally more beneficial than the setback die is detrimental. So having talents that grant Disorient and making it cost the same as the weapon quality isn't a big deal because Disorient is more of a nuisance than a serious penalty.

Conversely, Knockdown equates to a free Aim for anyone using a melee attack, so the target either burns their maneuver to stand up and not be such a target, and thus can't get away (important thing if the target would prefer to shoot you at short range with their blaster rifle) or they have to burn their action for a second maneuver. It's less of an issue with a Nemesis who can burn strain for a second maneuver, but since minion's can willingly suffer strain at all and rivals take that strain as wound damage it's a much bigger deal for them, to say nothing of the rival may already be pretty badly injured after taking a Melee attack to the face.

Off the top of my head, the best damage you can get with a Brawl-based weapon is Brawn+2, with the average being Brawn+1. In contrast, many Melee weapons tend to hang around in the Brawn+2 or Brawn+3, on top of having Pierce and/or Vicious on top of that. Lords of Nal Hutta introduced some absolutely insane Melee weapons.

The Blast Knuckles are nasty at Brawn+4 (see <http://swrpg.viluppo.net/equipment/weapons/category/7/>), but you do have to take strain damage yourself in order to use them, and since you take that “willingly”, I don’t think that the Resolve talent would help.

I’m definitely looking long and hard at those melee weapons in LoNH.

Conversely, Knockdown equates to a free Aim for anyone using a melee attack, so the target either burns their maneuver to stand up and not be such a target, and thus can't get away (important thing if the target would prefer to shoot you at short range with their blaster rifle) or they have to burn their action for a second maneuver. It's less of an issue with a Nemesis who can burn strain for a second maneuver, but since minion's can willingly suffer strain at all and rivals take that strain as wound damage it's a much bigger deal for them, to say nothing of the rival may already be pretty badly injured after taking a Melee attack to the face.

There might be somehing there with the damage considerations, but my thoughts are more connected to the other end of the economy of gameplay: Aiming, moving and disengaging are all worth 1 maneuver, which is worth 2 Advantage. 2 Advantage can also be spent to give oneself a Boost die for one's next turn, which is much more reliable than depending on a given target to "stay put" once one sets him on his keister.

Further, Minions are never really much of a concern for me when it comes to "balancing" game elements that are clearly in a PC's favor, and Rvials...I can just picture a henchman-type getting knocked on his butt and trying to do a mad scramble/shuffle to get away from the scary Trandoshan with the big ax. 2 Wounds sounds appropriate there.

All things considered, I just still find the Knockdown talent utterly underwhelming, hence the house rule. I've only ever had one player take that talent, and more often than not he was using 2 Advantage to cause Critical Injuries or heal strain. But when he did do Knockdowns, it was cool and didn't feel at all over-powered. It was just another tool in his toolbox.