Also, if you're going to cite the numbers of the longshoremen's incomes, which are coming from the employers, it's useful to provide the details - that those who are full time make that much on average, but most do not have full-time employment, removing them from the denominator of the average. The longshoremen retort that they make $26-$36 per hour, but how many of those hours that they're not being paid are they functionally 'on call'?

I honestly don't know the answer to any of it, and the numbers that are out there are being massaged by both sides to make their point. It'd be interesting to know the comparative data on injuries and fatalities among longshoremen in comparison to other industries. Do they have a point about the safety standards, or are they using it as leverage for more pay?

Sorry, didn't mean to make this overly political. Since I was responding to someone from outside the USA, I was just trying to put some actual numbers in to clarify the situation.

My numbers came from the claims made by the Union itself, not from the employers. If anything, and considering the source my numbers are probably artificially low. Invisiblecalm quoted the numbers claimed by the employers, which are quite a bit higher (as much as double). The truth is likely somewhere in between, but even that puts the average firmly over $100k USD per year, which is a LOT of money.

Invisiblecalm quoted the numbers claimed by the employers, which are quite a bit higher (as much as double). The truth is likely somewhere in between, but even that puts the average firmly over $100k USD per year, which is a LOT of money.

I laughed when I read this because I just read a section from one of the X-wing series books where Tycho knocks somebody for making this kind of comment. He calls it the Grey Fallacy, a situation where two paarties make opposing claims and those on the outside assume it must be in the middle -- thereby also assuming that there is no way one party might be in the right.

Not trying to make a claim on this subject, I just thought it was funny that Tycho just lectured me on this and here I am bumping into it in real life. Again, I'm no authority on this so I'm just passing along a fun moment.

Sorry, didn't mean to make this overly political. Since I was responding to someone from outside the USA, I was just trying to put some actual numbers in to clarify the situation.

My numbers came from the claims made by the Union itself, not from the employers. If anything, and considering the source my numbers are probably artificially low. Invisiblecalm quoted the numbers claimed by the employers, which are quite a bit higher (as much as double). The truth is likely somewhere in between, but even that puts the average firmly over $100k USD per year, which is a LOT of money.

Fine. I hate being dragged down to fact-correct the right-wing blogosphere.

Based on those union numbers, those are for top "Class A" workers which also includes supervisors, "walking bosses", and foreman and office managers (not the more common "Class B" and "Class C" workers). So this is for the bosses and supervisors. And also those top numbers are for those workers who are also doing (on average) over 60+ hours per week. Considering the average number of hours worked by a US worker is 33, these people are in effect, working 2 jobs back to back each day every day.

So if your point is that the supervisors and bosses who give themselves overtime and work 65 hours a week make $150k a year, then yes I agree with you.

The actual truth is that the base pay of "Senior skilled dockworkers" there is currently $35 an hour. That's for a senior skilled member. I'm not sure what the lower end is, but back in the 90's when I was in a union the rank and file were usually in around 50--70% of the senior guys which would in this case put them in the $17-$25 an hour range.

The more you know.

This has been a very interesting topic. When is Australia likely to see Armada?

This has been a very interesting topic. When is Australia likely to see Armada?

This was the core question fueling my rant

Sorry didnt realise you were ranting. Please continue.

Although I just ordered a Extra Victory SD from Fishpond and they say :

"Star Wars: Armada Victory-Class Star Destroyer Expansion Pack" is not yet released. Your pre-order has been recorded.

This title is due for publication on 15 February 2015. Please note that pre-order publication dates may vary slightly as the publication nears release.

But it was still in preorder mode which is weird.

"This title is due for publication on 15 February 2015. Please note that pre-order publication dates may vary slightly as the publication nears release."

Sounds like a cheap automated system, or a cheap barely-functional worker. That, or someone like me who can barely remember what day of the week it is.

Yea power to the people! Just think about the working conditions in china that results from and are totaly accepted by the "m0ar $$$" thought as only principle. If the dock workers job has such a big impact on the US outsourcing way of producing things than its obviously worth more just because society depends on it that much. The masses will realize they are beeing cheated every now and then and they will want theire share. you gotta put more lies faster to stop them.

anyway : "ha! ha!" as nelson would say .

The dock workers strike was one of the main stories on the NBC news last night. They said its costing the US economy 2 billion a day... gads... they also said the container ships could be backed up for months.

Sorry, didn't mean to make this overly political. Since I was responding to someone from outside the USA, I was just trying to put some actual numbers in to clarify the situation.

My numbers came from the claims made by the Union itself, not from the employers. If anything, and considering the source my numbers are probably artificially low. Invisiblecalm quoted the numbers claimed by the employers, which are quite a bit higher (as much as double). The truth is likely somewhere in between, but even that puts the average firmly over $100k USD per year, which is a LOT of money.

Fine. I hate being dragged down to fact-correct the right-wing blogosphere.

Based on those union numbers, those are for top "Class A" workers which also includes supervisors, "walking bosses", and foreman and office managers (not the more common "Class B" and "Class C" workers). So this is for the bosses and supervisors. And also those top numbers are for those workers who are also doing (on average) over 60+ hours per week. Considering the average number of hours worked by a US worker is 33, these people are in effect, working 2 jobs back to back each day every day.

So if your point is that the supervisors and bosses who give themselves overtime and work 65 hours a week make $150k a year, then yes I agree with you.

The actual truth is that the base pay of "Senior skilled dockworkers" there is currently $35 an hour. That's for a senior skilled member. I'm not sure what the lower end is, but back in the 90's when I was in a union the rank and file were usually in around 50--70% of the senior guys which would in this case put them in the $17-$25 an hour range.

The more you know.

And I hate having to refute the left wing propaganda machine with mere math. $35 an hour, with no differentials, working zero overtime, and getting zero vacation, sick, or holiday pay is $72800 per year. These workers get several weeks of paid vacation ($4200), 10 holidays ($2800), 2 weeks paid sick leave ($2800), and shift differentials (more pay for working non daylight weekday hours). Of course, they DO work overtime as well, which brings their pay to exactly what I said it was (which was taken from the Longshoremens website, by the way).

Also from the Longshoremen website, the starting pay is just over $20 per hour ($41600), with benefits ($6000). They receive shift differentials as well, and this wage is only for the first 2 years then their pay goes up dramatically. Since the majority of workers have over 10 years of service, this puts the typical pay well north of $70,000 per year NOT COUNTING OVERTIME for any dockworker that has completed his probationary period, which is exactly what I said it was.

"But they have to work overtime to earn that money" is really not the way to engender sympathy. A doctor works 80+ hours per week (40+ hours OT), management weeks start at a base of 50 hours per week (10 hours OT) but average well over 60 (20 hours OT), and business owners like myself usually work well over 80 hours every week as well. None of these gets time and a half for their hours over 40, in fact none of these get paid at ALL for working over 40, and unlike the dock workers they don't have the opportunity to decline that OT. Most fully employed adults in the USA work more than 50 hours per week, many of whom are working multiple jobs (so no OT pay). Your claim of 33 hours is comparing dock workers to all workers, including teen agers with part time jobs, and is hardly an apples to apples comparison. Median HOUSEHOLD income in the USA (counting every working person in the house) is only $51900 with 43 hours worked, which means that the typical dockworker with less than 5 years of experience earns more on his own than the typical US household while working fewer hours, and even a probationary dock worker earns more than the typical US worker does. Not the US starting pay, pay for everyone of all ages and professions. And if you do the math for a senior dock worker at 60 hours per week you get an income of more than $130,000 per year, more than a typical airline pilot (who works more hours, incidentally) which COMPLETELY wrecks the "poor dock workers" storyline.

Bottom line is that no matter how you massage the numbers, dock workers are paid very, very, VERY well for what they do. To achieve income levels as high as theirs with comparable hours you would need a masters degree and a decade of experience at the very least, and likely not that. They are, according to their OWN numbers, in the top 3% of income in the USA and 1% of the world and if there is any accuracy in the companies claim about the total value of their compensation they are grossly understating their income. Comparing Longshoremen to minimum wage workers or claiming "greed" is only pertinent to one side of the argument is disingenuous at the very best.

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