theclash24,

I usually try to think of the environment for setback dice. It's often fun to mix up the environment so you have variety. This way you can get some extreme conditions.

If your last scene was a mild, sunny day, perhaps your next scene is in a rainstorm. Maybe the next scene's at night. The next scene could be in a sandstorm. The next could be windy. Some or all of these could mean one or two setbacks to most combat or action checks.

For social checks, it can be fun to put your characters in places they're not comfortable. If you have grungy, lowlife PCs, a fancy dinner party, society reception, governmental event, etc, might mean a setback. If your PCs are noble or high society, then dive bars, dangerous cantinas, thieves dens, or wilderness might give them setbacks.

You don't have to always amp it up to 11 but if you can get some variety in, your PCs might remember the epic fight they had on top of that skyscraper when it was raining hard and windy and they had 2 or 3 setback to every check.

Man, what a great thread. I was just thinking about this stuff today (about to start GMing my first FFG campaign), and here you guys have been talking about it for a month.

I'm seeing two schools of thought here, as regards upgrading:

1. Upgrade if something really bad could happen (seemingly supported by the published modules)
2. Upgrade if something really bad could happen, but spend a Destiny point to do so.

So here's a situation (altered so that my players don't know what's gonna happen) that I'd love to hear how you'd run (please disregard Setbacks in this instance, as those are pretty clear cut):

The PC is a chef, who's tasked with cooking a steak for a visiting food critic. If he fails, the restaurant will get a bad review. But If he rolls a Despair, the critic is going to be extremely displeased and the chef is going to lose his job...

Would you spend that Destiny point to upgrade, or just upgrade as part of the difficulty?

Awayputurwpn,

First, I mean you no harm. (Sorry, the temptation was way too high.)

Second, I think you've got a good point, and you are right--the rules do support that. The reason I mentioned where things could go horribly wrong is because in some of the published adventures, the difficulty is something like PPR or even PPPR. Unfortunately it's lunchtime and I'm away from my books so I can't give you a concrete example, but I recall in Beyond the Rim there are tasks that have a challenge die added to the difficulty, without the text stating that a Destiny point should be used.

First, let me say I'm not trying to argue either side of this dicussion (though I personally lean towards awayputurwpn's points).

I just flipped through Beyond the Rim, giving every page a scan as well as skimming through some things. Its pretty easy to pick out the little pictures of the dice, as well as the symbols for the results.

3 rolls tell you to use challenge dice. One is an opposed check. The other two seem arbitrary. One is for when the PCs are trying to sleep in a jungle and the other is for a piloting check at the end.

Another thing to note is that almost all rolls give advice on how to use a despair, despite not having red dice naturally. So it seems odd they expect you to be using the destiny points frequently, but then force those red dice into two checks anyway.

So it is a very low number of rolls, but it does happen.

Man, what a great thread. I was just thinking about this stuff today (about to start GMing my first FFG campaign), and here you guys have been talking about it for a month.

I'm seeing two schools of thought here, as regards upgrading:

• Upgrade if something really bad could happen (seemingly supported by the published modules)
• Upgrade if something really bad could happen, but spend a Destiny point to do so.

So here's a situation (altered so that my players don't know what's gonna happen) that I'd love to hear how you'd run (please disregard Setbacks in this instance, as those are pretty clear cut):

The PC is a chef, who's tasked with cooking a steak for a visiting food critic. If he fails, the restaurant will get a bad review. But If he rolls a Despair, the critic is going to be extremely displeased and the chef is going to lose his job...

Would you spend that Destiny point to upgrade, or just upgrade as part of the difficulty?

Spend the destiny point. Despite the very few times published adventures do include challenge dice arbitrarily, I think the rulebook is pretty clear the destiny pool should be used to upgrade checks, as well as the benefits previously discussed to using destiny points in your games.

I nearly always use setbacks, except for the few situations where the external conditions, the equipment, and the characters physical/mental situation are IDEAL, but only rarely more than three. If one of these parameters even is superior to the ordinary setup, then I grant boosts.

The difficulty, in my opinion, is set by the, well, difficulty of the basic task under "laboratory conditions".

In case of active resistance or countermeasures, or a really nasty setup, I upgrade.

To recapitulate: difficulty - basic task; boost/setback - external conditions; upgrade - intrinsic complexity.

So here's a situation (altered so that my players don't know what's gonna happen) that I'd love to hear how you'd run (please disregard Setbacks in this instance, as those are pretty clear cut):

The PC is a chef, who's tasked with cooking a steak for a visiting food critic. If he fails, the restaurant will get a bad review. But If he rolls a Despair, the critic is going to be extremely displeased and the chef is going to lose his job...

Would you spend that Destiny point to upgrade, or just upgrade as part of the difficulty?

Have them roll an opposed check against the Critic's skill (Discipline, or whatever) and make the skill pool whatever you think is appropriate.

No Destiny Point needed, and you can upgrade it all you want, because of skill ranks.

Also, this:

Spend the destiny point. Despite the very few times published adventures do include challenge dice arbitrarily, I think the rulebook is pretty clear the destiny pool should be used to upgrade checks, as well as the benefits previously discussed to using destiny points in your games.

Can't say I agree with that. It's the DP flips that are arbitrary...the GM needs no reason at all, you can't get more arbitrary than that. (My excuse is usually something like "your pool is looking pretty dark, let me help you out with that...")

And I'll disagree the BtR examples are arbitrary. First, I don't think that's something that FFG would let slide in their first standalone module. Second, sleeping in a jungle could be more nasty than generating a few threat...a Despair lets you put a tarantula on somebody's face to wake up to

I will say I don't upgrade-without-DP lightly...normally it's only when rolling opposed against someone else's skill. But sometimes there are good reasons for an upgrade-without-DP, reasons that probably aren't immediately visible to the player, and don't need to be explained. So long as the GM isn't arbitrary about their application, it's not a problem.

Spend the destiny point. Despite the very few times published adventures do include challenge dice arbitrarily, I think the rulebook is pretty clear the destiny pool should be used to upgrade checks, as well as the benefits previously discussed to using destiny points in your games.

Can't say I agree with that. It's the DP flips that are arbitrary...the GM needs no reason at all, you can't get more arbitrary than that. (My excuse is usually something like "your pool is looking pretty dark, let me help you out with that...")

And I'll disagree the BtR examples are arbitrary. First, I don't think that's something that FFG would let slide in their first standalone module. Second, sleeping in a jungle could be more nasty than generating a few threat...a Despair lets you put a tarantula on somebody's face to wake up to

I will say I don't upgrade-without-DP lightly...normally it's only when rolling opposed against someone else's skill. But sometimes there are good reasons for an upgrade-without-DP, reasons that probably aren't immediately visible to the player, and don't need to be explained. So long as the GM isn't arbitrary about their application, it's not a problem.

I called the two instances of red dice being called for (outside of an opposed check) in Beyond the Rim arbitrary because the book doesn't give any explanation as to why you are using the red dice. Potential uses of despair can't be used as reasoning here, because the book gives you those on 75% of the all purple dice rolls too (interesting note, the book doesn't even give suggestions as to how to use the results for the sleeping in the jungle roll). So based on how the adventure presents dice rolls, those two seem very arbitrary.

Personally, I am very much of the mindset that you shouldn't use the challenge dice unless you flipped a destiny point, a rule or ability calls for it, or it is an opposed check. So if my players need to cook for a critic, and this guy is stuck up and could royally ruin things for the players on a failure with despair, destiny is moving against them and the point is being flipped. But that is just me.

Though arguably, it's a competitive check, not an opposed one - the critic is just the judge. What you're really rolling against is the cooking skill of the other restaurateurs in town.

That is, unless the critic is actively trying not to be impressed, in which case, you're rolling against his Cool.

Personally, I am very much of the mindset that you shouldn't use the challenge dice unless you flipped a destiny point, a rule or ability calls for it, or it is an opposed check.

I don't know why this needs to be such a hard line. I'd agree with all that in principle most of the time, except I think there's space for a little wiggle room in the application of upgrades. You're saying "no wiggle room allowed", and I'm saying "this much > < wiggle room".

It's not a lot of difference, even though mathematically speaking my wiggle-room space is infinitely greater than yours

For me, I consider it well within my prerogative as a GM to assign a Challenge die at any time and for virtually any reason. I wouldn't do it just because I wanted to, I'd do it in cases where it was a dangerous check and I had something in mind for a Despair result.

That said, I try to flip a Destiny Point for it whenever I can, just to keep the Destiny Point economy flowing back and forth. If I don't make a point to do it, I often forget to flip them and then the PCs end up with a full dark side destiny pool and I'd rather them have a few points to use.

Fantastic thoughts everyone, and thank you!

About that food critic: I confess that, in my desire to disguise the real scenario from my players, I blew the analogy by adding a second character (the critic). Let's try another one:

The player is juggling chainsaws in the privacy of his own home. If he fails, he drops one and screws up the routine. If he rolls a Despair, he suffers an extremely nasty critical injury.

Destiny point to upgrade, or no?

If they're doing it carefully, yes, I'd use a destiny point if I wanted to upgrade the difficulty. However, this is one of those cases where I'd allow the PC to choose to gain one upgrade, at the cost of upgrading the difficulty by one. (the equivalent of both of us spending a destiny point) to represent them pushing themselves beyond what they can do safely.

Though arguably, it's a competitive check, not an opposed one - the critic is just the judge. What you're really rolling against is the cooking skill of the other restaurateurs in town.

That is, unless the critic is actively trying not to be impressed, in which case, you're rolling against his Cool.

You could have Competitive Check whose difficulty is set by an Opposed dice pool. In fact, an unimpressed food critic would be a fantastic example of that. Also, I like Cool. Cool is cool.

Fantastic thoughts everyone, and thank you!

About that food critic: I confess that, in my desire to disguise the real scenario from my players, I blew the analogy by adding a second character (the critic). Let's try another one:

The player is juggling chainsaws in the privacy of his own home. If he fails, he drops one and screws up the routine. If he rolls a Despair, he suffers an extremely nasty critical injury.

Destiny point to upgrade, or no?

It depends on why he is juggling chain vibrosaws. (Space chainsaws!) The reason behind the check, i.e. the purpose of the check, i.e. the intended outcome of the check, is part of what sets the difficulty.

"I juggle vibrosaws" is a character trait. No rolling required.

"I juggle vibrosaws as an example of my prowess to Zollo the Hutt" is an action. Roll em up.

"I juggle vibrosaws to distract the crowd from my pickpocket friend" is an action.

"I juggle vibrosaws to confuse/intimidate our enemies" is an action.

If a character is juggling chainsaws in the privacy of his home, then all that really needs to happen is the narration.

Am I being entirely unhelpful? I'd be happy to weigh in on something for your table if you want to PM me, and if you want my opinion

The player is juggling chainsaws in the privacy of his own home. If he fails, he drops one and screws up the routine. If he rolls a Despair, he suffers an extremely nasty critical injury.

Destiny point to upgrade, or no?

How talented are they in general, and how skilled are they in the specific area of juggling chainsaws? Is this something they do on a very regular basis, or are they just starting out?

If they do it regularly and they’re throwing several yellow dice, then yeah — I’d flip a DP to upgrade. But if they’re not very talented or not very skilled, then I’d upgrade at least once without flipping a DP, just because they are more likely to fail and those failures are more likely to be catastrophic. If I was feeling really nasty, I might spend a DP to do another upgrade.

Here's something I missed in the rules. Page 20, under Applying Task Difficulty. Challenge dice "most often" come into the mix when facing

• skill opposition,
• particularly challenging circumstances, and
• Destiny Point expenditure.

Got me thinking, so I went through the book and enumerated each case with examples of difficulty upgrades (where a Challenge die is introduced) in lieu of a trained/prepared opponent :

• Piloting checks: difficulty can be upgraded based on size or speed of the vehicle, page 240
• Attacking a target engaged with an ally, page 210
• Athletics checks in extremely adverse conditions (hurricanes, etc), page 105
• Purchasing items with a rarity greater than 10, page 150
• Trying to lie while on Avabush Spice page 184
• Being blinded, page 217
• Fear checks, when confronting something of dangerous/deadly repute, page 299

That's all I could find. In a lot of these circumstances, we have nature itself set against the characters, while in other cases it's the characters' utter lack of ability or confidence that stands in their way.

So it makes sense when published modules throw in some Challenge Dice with some of their checks. I think it can really add some flavor, and is dictated by the challenging circumstances.

Still I think it's important to remember the sidebar on page 21, Upgrading (or downgrading) dice is not usually necessary unless a specific rule or ability calls for it. These situations...are generally not applied arbitrarily by the GM. Just because "a Despair could mean something interesting" doesn't mean an automatic Upgrade is appropriate.

In my last session, I started using DP to upgrade more often, and I have to say, it really livened things up. It also helped the flow of destiny points, because I let the players choose first whether or not to flip a destiny. Sometimes, they will use it just to avoid having the difficulty upgraded.

It can also deter some foolishness. If a player with a bunch of yellows wants to try something caizy, I ask "Do you want to flip a destiny point to upgrade?" That makes them think twice. "Is it worth a DP to do this, or worth risking Despair if Stark has a chance to upgrade?"

edit: spelling

It's okay for both GM and player to flip a DP for single check...as long as they both have DPs available in their pool before the check.

Well dip me in oil and call me Threepio , you're right! At least I can see where I initially misinterpreted the rule under "The Limits of Luck" (p.28 EotE, p36 AoR) and it's never been called out. I also noticed another part I've been getting wrong. I've been allowing destiny points to be used to downgrade a difficulty, but that is never listed as an option. I don't know where I picked that one up from. It was just one of those "Free Parking gives you money" things that no one can trace the origin of. That kind of makes my earlier comment moot, but I'm still finding that using Dark Side points more frequently makes for a fun game.

GM Stark, I know folks who prefer that interpretation--personally I don't mind when both I as GM and a PC flip a Destiny Point each, I think it heightens the tension.

But it only heightens the tension if it's always upgrading, not downgrading. Removing the option for a Despair just makes things less fun in my opinion

Hi people! One doubt.

How often do you use to upgrade pools to Challenge dices as GM? My player uses to say to me: "Beware, 3 Reds could be so much difficulty (due to Despair basically)".

Do you use to fear upgrades or use to be more or less common on your games?

How often do you use to upgrade pools to Challenge dices as GM? My player uses to say to me: "Beware, 3 Reds could be so much difficulty (due to Despair basically)".

Do you use to fear upgrades or use to be more or less common on your games?

1. Upgrading difficulty due to circumstance should really only be done once -- the classic walking a tightrope without a net. That's not the only source of upgrading, of course, but the handful of circumstances are usually mutually exclusive. Spending a DP could go with anything, but doing that in combination with the other situations really seems like piling on. If PC's are routinely rolling 3 reds (while not fighting Darth Vader), something's probably going wrong.

2. Fear should be used sparingly, but it has its own rules, and there's really not much need to stray from them.

Thanks Lorne! I'm aware that Red dices (so Despairs) are really powerfull, so sometimes I fear that I'm adding too much reds on pools.

Just had a thought on the upgrading of difficulty dice:

if a player is doing something that they are aware has a very sever consequence then an upgrade with out Destiny Point spend should be warranted

eg:

the classic walking a tightrope without a net.

if there are invisible or unknown consequences for failure then Flipping a DP should be a requirement, to give the player the safety of knowing that your not being nasty, and that there will be opportunity for a good thing to happen in the future because they risked something now.