Make a *shudder* trilogy surrounding the Horus Heresy and show Darth Vader how it's supposed to be done.

Thermite flair like the lightsabres in Gundam?

www.youtube.com/watch

I used to watch star wars when I was a kid. I enjoyed it. But then at 13 I found Warhammer 40,000 and it struck a chord. I don't know why, but I pretty much forgot about Star Wars and immersed my self in dark gothic wierdness. The story was much more 'adult' in my teenage eyes. The 2nd ed codicies didn't talk down to you and I learned quite a few words I'd never heard of before.

HOWEVER: I get pissed at SPACE MARINES for pretty much the same reasons people dislike the Jedi. I am sick to death of GW spewing marinewank at a thousand miles an hour. Space marines are the jedi of 40k in terms of plot protection and ridiculousness. And I LIKE 40k.

As for a 40k movie, given unlimited funds:

This is my response to all these threads (assuming it was done right):

Whether they make a movie or not, this is how I'd do one:

I would do the Horus Heresy in a quintilogy told from the perspective of an Imperial Scribe who is cataloguing it in the 41st Millenium (thus acting as narrator and putting the story in 40K perspective).

It would have a narrator voice over at the beginning from this scribe, explaining the existence of the god emperor and his great work.

SCRIBE: Terra, cradle of Mankind and Throne to Lord of us all, The Undying Emperor. It was here that the Blessed race of Man took his first tentative steps into the Void.

These words being scribed onto parchment as a scribe's voice reads them. This is superimposed over an image of the Earth.

As the voice continues to speak the numbers of years climbs higher at an ever increasing rate. As it flies past 2000 we start to see signs of activity. As the decades and centuries pass more and more activity begins to surround the planet. Rockets, shuttles and stations appear then disappear only to be replaced by bigger and better structures. The Green and blue masses of the planet morph into different shapes, more and more land disappears beneath the blue torrent. All the while, the white wisps of clouds appear, move then swirl around the globe at incredible speed.

SCRIBE: Many were the wonders our forebears encountered, and many were the horrors. Xenos filth, upstarts, usurpers possessed all that was Man's by divine right. War was waged, extermination achieved. Humanity prospered, ushering in the Golden Age of Man. Such hubris came at a price, and the follies of those who bent the dark sorceries of science to their wills were destroyed for their arrogance. And so, Man entered his darkest hour, the Age of Strife.

Here we see fading in and out images to accompany the narration, until we get to the earth being wracked with explosions and wars, ships being destroyed in orbit, and the colonies of man degenerating into barbarism.

SCRIBE: It was at our darkest that our brightest light appeared, delivering us from destruction. The God Emperor, Him on Earth, strode the domains of Man, raising us from our barbarism and bringing about a holy age. By his will was the Imperium forged. This is the tale of those times...

We follow the camera now, having flashed through history to the ~29th millenium, down through the atmosphere, across the ruins of ancient cities, the desolation of innumerable wars, and fields of the dead. We zoom to the walls of the Last Bastion, last wall between the Emperor and total dominion of Terra. The wall explodes inwards and the Custodian Guard pour through, killing all before them. Through the smoke and dust strides the Emperor, surrounded with a golden aura. Constantin Valdor strides forward dragging the last TechnoBarbarian chief of Earth to kneel before the Emperor of Mankind.
"It is done my Lord. Your Dominance is assured."
"Excellent Captain." The Emperor turns his gaze to the Barbarian. "Do you surrender yourself to me, to the Imperial Truth? Will you join me in bringing enlightenment to the Galaxy?" The Barbarian chieftain is unbowed, and spits at the Emperor's feet.
"None of my men will follow your falsehoods, daemon! Your death is worth any price." So saying the chieftain leaps forward, powered dagger in hand. A split second look is passed between Valdor and the Emperor, and nodding, Valdor turns his back, as do all the Custodians. The chieftain charges the last 10 feet toward the Emperor, but never makes it.
"So be it." He says, no expression in his voice, just the weight of ages. He raises his hand, and the chieftain lifts into the air. His cries of rage turn to cries of terror as, slowly, the Emperor clenches his fist, and the chieftain slowly crumples, his chest collapsing and his skull shattering. We see a shot over the shoulder of Valdor as blood sprays across his gold pauldron. The shredded corpes slips to the ground almost gently.
"Now Captain. Now my dominance is assured. And the enlightenment of Humanity awaits."

EDIT: The point of this is to say: THIS IS THE GOOD GUY!! If THIS is the good guy, what the **** are the bad guys like?

***

The first film would follow the Emperor's conquest of the Sol System, his creation of the primarchs, their subsequent loss and his development of the Space Marines. Horus would be found toward the end of the film and the Great Crusade put in motion (mybe with the origins of some of the other primarchs).

I would film every single primarch's discovery, but put in only a few and leave the rest for the DVD.

The second Film would begin several decades later with the Great Crusade in full swing, Horus the loyal Primarch by the Emperor's side. We would see the finding of the rest of the primarchs, and watch legions of marines and their lords smiting the enemy.

Basically the 2nd film would be one huge extended battlescene, hoping from warzone to warzone, with the interaction of the primarchs for character development (scenes that show the animosity between certain primarchs or Angron's hatred of the Emperor).

The third film would have Horus becoming the Warmaster about half way through, and the Emperor disappears almost entirely from the film. This is the beginning of the end for Horus.

The Lodge of Davin and Horus' corruption would be the last scene of the film.

The fourth film would begin with the attack on Istvaan, and show the legions turn traitor.

All the great marine vs marine fights in the background would be in this (Prospero et al).

The fifth film would be an extended siege of terra and the simultaneous plot arcs of the traitors, the Emperor and the space wolves/Dark angels attempting to get there in time. All this culminating in the storming of horus' battlebarge and the deaths of Sanguinius, the Emperor, and Horus (oh and an Imperial fist terminator and one Olanius Pious).

It would probably end with the Emperor's internment into the golden throne with the other primarchs returning to earth.

I think a fade scene would be cool - showing the grandeur of the 31st Millenium fading to the gothic ruin of the 41st (say, by fading from 31st Terra, to 41st Terra).

And it couldn't be more 40K than to end with the Inquisition storming the scribes quarters and executing him for committing heresy against the god emperor by compiling an account of the Heresy - an account sanctioned 300 years earlier and then rescinded (but of course the termination order had yet to be received by the adept before he finished it ).

CGI would play a big part, I'm talking an ork wavefront in the billions charging across a continent toward an Imperial gunline.

Spaceship battles where 10 km long ships are blown apart etc.

CG is the only way to capture the ridiculous scale of 40k effectively.

And what cooler promo teaser could there be than Orf's O Fortuna playing with a black screen and flashes of carnage interspersed with the tag line:

In the Grim Darkness - of the Far Future - there is only - War.

Hellebore

I'm finding it hard to place when I finally got pissed with GW spewing Marinewank material...There was Apocalypse (play the game like loads of people already did!), and then, when I walked past GW and saw the adverts for the new Empire army torn down, to be replaced by pictures of Space Marines firing bolters with banners draped over them.....

I love the Space Marines. They're just...awesome, for all the marinewank material and more. I love 'em, but the overruse by GW just pisses me off :@

At least...so far, the Marines arn't all Telepathic ala Jedi...

cyclocius said:

Enter the Gray Knights! ;-p

Graver said:

The Grey Knights are different They're a specific, driven force, not required to help old ladies across the screen. Required to beat the crap out of deamons bigger thanhive spires. Also, they have Storm Bolters.

cyclocius said:

The overuse annoys me, too. One of the reasons why I cannot stand Star Wars anymore; Jedis are ridiculously overused (as well as being uninspiring, and morally simplistic).

I think it an amusing statement about modern culture that people no longer want to hear the exploits of Supermen, but of heavily flawed and morally "complex" everymen. I find that the former can be an excellent ideal against which to compare the latter.

Star Wars is meant to be morally "simplistic" - the black and white concepts of good and evil, right and wrong, are important elements in the setting. It is really not so easy to live in such a setting without trying to impose our own perceptions of "Grey morality" upon everything - just as my SW players. There is a real challenge in playing characters in a setting where one can't justify their actions there the argument of moral ambiguity, but accept the inherrent good and evil in everything they do. For the Jedi, whom are meant to be the pinacle of this ideal, it is even harder - trying to live a life in service to a very tangible "light side".

Space Marines, to me, are interesting in that they are subject to being morally flawed, yet they have incredible power at their fingertips. From their god like vantage they have to decide how that power will influence their actions. Sure, a battlefield may not seem like a morally difficult realm to navigate, but there are still plenty of opportunities for compassion and cruelty - to one's enemy, to one's allies, to those caught in the way of their efforts to purge the unclean and preserve the Empire.

And what is wrong with a little macho flexing from time to time? Has no one ever wanted that kind of power at their fingertips?

Hellebore said:

But then again, wouldn't much of the stuff that really typifies the 41st millenium get lost if you make the movies about the Horus Heresy? I mean, during the Heresy (which was during the 31st millenium) the Imperium didnt have many of the things that we associate with WH40K, like the Imperial Creed (because the Emperor was a secular guy back then), Commissars were also non-existent. The divide between the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Fleet hadn't happened yet. The Inquisition didnt begin to exist until after the Heresy etc. etc.

Somehow I feel that a Horus Heresy quintology would just provide even more Space Marine wanking than we had from the beginning.

I'd rather see realizations of either Gaunts Ghosts or perhaps a trilogy about Eisenhorn. Partly because these stories concern normal people and not power armoured supermen which would be a lot easier for an audience not familiar with the WH40K setting to connect with, and partly because I like the stories about simple Guardsmen on the front line and Inquisitors travelling throughout several worlds hunting heretics and aliens more than I like stories about Space Marine wanking...

Jack of Tears said:

I have two theories regarding the matter. Either it's because exploits about supermen (in both the moral and power sense) have been done to death already. The modern culture is simply sick of it, because the same concept have been jammed down their throats for so long. Historically it started with the bible (many of the stories in the bible can pretty much be summed up as "exploits of moral supermen"), and it has went on since then. No wonder that people get a little tired of the same thing being repeated over and over for almost 2000 years now is it?

OR

It's a maturity thing. When you're a kid and still haven't learned much of the world or people, and your parents try to influence you with concepts of "right" and "wrong", you want to see stories that play in to these very simplistic ideas of "right" and "wrong". But as you grow older you realize that there is no such thing as right or wong. Sure you may still be holding on to a few ideals that the cartoons and your parents teached you, but you become very much aware of the fact that hardly any normal person actually live in the "right" or the "wrong" area, but rather exist within this huge moral grey area that have, in the past, made people do both fantastic and terrible deeds from finding cure for disease and going to space to commit **** and/or genocide. With that realization in mind and a more adult way of thinking, most people find the cartoonish stories about the exploits of moraly "right" supermen to be somewhat "young" in mindeset and not nearly complex enough to stimulate the imagination of an adult person.

The supermen are simply to "flat" in personality and motivations to be exciting to most people. The heavily flawed and morally complex everymen on the other hand usually provide a much more interesting depth, that very young children usually have a hard time to understand.

But that's just two theories.

Varnias Tybalt said:

It's really more of a change in the way we think. Superman was conceived and had his hay-day in the modernist world which believed in absolutes but the social pendulum has swung back to the relativistic side of tings in the post-modern age. We're now not looking for an ideal or paragon to live up to but for someone we can relate to. It's like the difference in heroes such as Gilgamesh vs Achilles (them Greek fellas really ad the whole flaws of humanity down pat).

Of course, I'm not convinced Superman is any kind of ideal...

But he was polite to the ladies,

Was great at foreign relations,

Is chock full of fatherly wisdom,

And lets not forget

He can sell hatred with the best of them!

Okay, I admit, some of these might ave been taken out of context (not the propaganda cover...) but... they's pretty damned amusing ;-p

As for movies, I think the Horus Heresy idea wouldn't be the best choice... especially if your sick of Spess Mareeens always cropping up any time 40k is mentioned. As mentioned above, it's not really indicative of the setting proper, more like legendary back story which means more to those who know the setting as opposed to those who don't. If a movie were to come out, a nice simple one dealing with the 41st millenium would be great. Hell, i liked Damnatious and, while were making wises tat will never be fulfilled, I believe fallowing in tat movies footsteps would be the way to go (maybe with a plot that has a more coherent and realized end) but something that deals with modern Imperial society and it's people and not it's past.

As a historical note, Superman as originally written in the 1930s was not the goody pro-authority two-shoes he is written as today. He was a leftist who took on corrupt union bosses and so forth. He was patterned after the heroes of the pulps, like the Shadow

bogi_khaosa said:

As a sidenote, when I wrote about "moral supermen" I used the term "superman" as a euphemism and wasn't aiming towards the actual "superman". Still I found those pics linked to, to be hilarious.

Jack of Tears said:

I am not sure if the setting is meant to be morally simplistic (or maybe that's Lucas himself trying to be more meaningful by hiding from deep philosophical issues). If the world is meant to be divided into naive categories of good versus evil, then it comes in to conflict with some of the characters. Vader (only in episode 6 - until then he's essentially a villain in a black suit) and Han for instance actually come across as morally grey individuals. Lucas could have explored this in the average Imperial officer by exploring whether they are 'bad' because they serve the Emperor. Instead, they are just stock-standard foes to make the heroes all the more heroic. There's little depth, and I really think it's a fault and thus not intended. Sure it's escapism, but it's silly escapism.

You'll tend to find that the type of faerie tale story SW is inspired by is very morally black and white. It has always been my assumption that Lucus originally intended this, as it grants the series some significant depth ... not sure if he ever said as much himself though.

Han - I would say Han was always a good guy in the films ... sure he comes off as selfish, (selfish is not the same as evil) but when push comes to shove he does the right thing.

Vader - His redemption is a very important part of the series ... a person can be evil and yet redeamed ... but at that point he ceases to be evil.

The imperial officers aren't much explored in the films, and what we see if them is rather nonspecific, but in the fiction you tend to see them as evil bastards who take pleasure in the suffering of others. I found this quite telling, as it suggested the evil of the Empire had infested - or infected - the people serving within her ranks. The people didn't just serve an evil regime, their exposure to it made them evil in turn. (ties in heavily with the idea of good and evil being tangible in SW)

Admittedly some of the books and comics in the last decade or so have moved away from that idea ... but the media will reflect the expectations of the culture ...

It's totally tangential, but the first appearance of Superman (1938) can be read here: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~UG02/yeung/actioncomics/cover.html

Jack of Tears said:

Where does it grant the series significant depth? It just comes across as morally simplistic. I think Lucas intended to make a movie that was just meant to be fun, but again it's silly.

I said Han is morally grey, not that his selfishness can be equated to being evil. He does the right thing because the Empire being EVIL does not give him much choice; he is forced to survive.

Vader - I know his redemption is part of the series, but he is a complex character around 5 & 6 (especially 6). The whole decision to side with the Emperor reflects more than just "will I be good or evil?".

As for your Imperial officers comment. I'm sorry, I'm not debating the books. Lucas presents the Imperials like 99% of movie makers present Germans in WWII; they serve the Fuhrer, so they must all be evil. Which is pretty simplistic.

Wilfred Owen said:

Uhm, wasn't Han Solo a smuggler to begin with? Meaning he profited of transporting goods through Imperial cordons which he knew to be illegal. Sure Han Solo was a survivor along with his buddy Chewbacca but both of them were in the beginning just as evil as the Empire. They saw a business opportunity in breaking the law, sure these laws were Imperial laws but laws nonetheless. Basically they used these laws by breaking them purely to serve their own interests (making money), they didnt really care about anyone's suffering resulting from the Imperial regime, making them just as bad as the Empire.

Of course that changed when they hooked up with Skywalker and the other idealists, but to begin with Han Solo was hardly a "forced survivor", he was just an evil opportunist. Which of course lends him a bit och charm.

Obviously you don't get it so I'm not going to argue the point. Likely we grew up in different generations, with different expectations, perceptions and ideals. Nothing wrong with that.

Jack of Tears said:

Who? Me or Wilfred Owen? (we have the same avatar so...)

Wilfred Owen said:

The depth originates in the viewer asking himself what it would be like living in a world of blacks and whites - where they could not claim the safety of a "grey zone" to justify their actions and beliefs. Would like be easier or harder to deal with when everything was - by its nature - good or evil? It is easy and lazy to stamp the Empire with a bit EVIL sign and stop thinking about it - but to keep thinking about it, what it means, what the repercussions of that are, etc. causes one to perhaps look at things a different way.

Wilfred Owen said:

No, you did not say being selfish and being evil are the same thing - I was merely clarifying that so it could not be used by anyone else at any point in the argument. And I'm not sure how you perceive Han had no choice but to behave as he did. Yes, he was forced to break his way out of the Death Star and he saved the Princess initially out of greed, but those things did not require him to turn around and risk his life fighting along side the rebels - not to mention making himself an active enemy of the Empire in the process. He turned back because he was a good person and he could not allow his friends to risk their lives while he flew off into the sunset - no matter how very much easier it would have made his life. (he had been doing just fine smuggling up until then - in a place the size of the Galaxy there will always be need for smugglers and scoundrels - so he was not merely pursuing self interest)

Wilfred Owen said:

But it is the question that becomes more complex, not the answer. Turning his back on the Emperor then to save his son meant turning away from everything he had become and facing his past; it meant admitting that he son was correct and he was redeamable dispite the travesties he had committed. But it also meant giving up the power he'd gained, destroying the world he'd helped to build, throwing himself to a rebelion that would very likely have him executed for war crimes, and the very real possibility that he'd either fail or die in the effort. There was no middle ground for him to take here - no half answers he could pander to. He was trapped between the very hard lines of Good and Evil, the only question became would he step over or not?

Wilfred Owen said:

But the question becomes, did they serve because they were evil, or were they evil because they served? And if the latter, then it suggests - as I mentioned before - that the evil of the Empire infested the people within it; it transformed them. And if that is the case, then what does it mean for the people of the galaxy? The battle against the empire really and truly becomes a battle of supremecy between good and evil and the result would change not only the political structure of the galaxy, but the very face of the Star Wars universe.

Oh, and sorry to everyone for being so short with my last response ... I've been tired and not feeling well this last week or so and didn't have the energy to give a proper response.