Blade_merc:

Well proton rockets are not even affected by this, so I don't understand what you mean about that. As for Assault missiles you pay 5 freaking points for a chance to hit an do one damage to other possible ships within range 1. It's almost the cost of heavy laser, no issue here accept that now they are worth their points. Homing missiles don't need a fix, keeping your target lock after firing is how they are, and still a good card. Versus ships with free evade tokens like the deci and han or other ships likely to use them. I have used homing missiles on my Z-swarm on just one ship, so I can get by 3po and han's evade to do some serious damage early on.

I don't understand any of your points about them being over powered and not fixed. They are not overpowered and really the ones you mentioned have no issues with this change that I can see.

You have to explain better why it's so overpowered. Because I don't see it.

Well, I never said anything about proton rockets when replying to you...

If you can't see why keeping a TL to modify attacks with any missile/torpedo (which is almost the same as the benefit of a homing missile) would be bad, I dunno man.

Concussion Missiles that don't need to spend TL to fire and turn a blank to a hit for 4 points. Homing missile for 5 points. Who would ever take a homing missile at that point? Concussion becomes decisively better.

Assault missiles that do not have to spend TL to fire? That's crazy good. Again, makes homing missile completely pointless. Why ever take a homing missile for the same points when assault missiles have the same benefit AND splash damage?

And Jonus. Why ever take Jonus in a ordnance-heavy list? Your idea completely screws over his usefulness.

Assault missiles - now 3 points

Advanced Proton Torpedoes - now 5 points

Concussion missiles - 3 points

Proton Torpedoes - 3 points

Homing missiles - 4 points.

Cluster missiles - 3 points

Ion Torpedoes - 4 points

Major Rhymer - discount of a few points that way he is worth taking.

Captain jonus - reroll 2 dice for friendlies at range 1, 1 die for friendlies at range 2. His bonus also affects himself.

Munitions failsafe - 0 points. Still costs you in opportunity cost of not being able to take another modification. Might have to remain at one cost to prevent auto-inclusion though, but still.

All these fixes that cost even more points would just make the problem worse. I don't want to have to put even MORE points onto my bombers to make ordnance useful.

If assault missiles suddenly became part of the the meta, you'd see swarm players splitting up their swarm so it wouldn't be as OP as you'd think, just would require different formations on the part of the swarm player.

To everyone thinking this would be overpowered, remember: Un-modified attack dice are crap and cannot be relied on. Most missiles end up being unmodified attacks AND you're paying extra points for them. If they were priced reasonably they'd actually play a part in the meta. Flechettes are priced very reasonably and are used. So are ion pulse missiles. *shrug*

I like the idea of re-useable ordnance that Red Castle mentioned, but then you risk swarms of A-wings/Z-95s/Scimitars with re-useable proton rockets/flechettes/(insert missile/torp here) wrecking stuff.

That's why it should cost an action to put them back face-up. So that unless you take someone that pass actions, you would be able to fire them once every two rounds and are left without any action to help you defend the turn you rearm your ordnance. Heavy Scyk fighter could actually consider equiping something else than a cannon with their title; Chardaan refit would not be the autoinclude it currently is on A-Wing; having mutliple ordnance slot like on the bombers could actually be useful so you could equip different ordnance to have variety during combat.

We have a secondary weapon that cost 7 (3 more points than a Proton Torpedo) that allow you to attack at 4 dice every round without needing a TL, I think that being able to reuse your torpedoes that you paid a premium price for once every two turns would not be too much.

There are two basic problems with most ordnance:

1) Most of it is very situational. Assault Missiles, for instance, are great against swarms, not great against bigger ships. Homing Missiles Would be great against Tie Fighters, if they were priced a lot lower. Cluster Missiles trade 1 high quality attack for 2 low quality attacks. Etc. If there was a way to choose which of your missiles you'd load after seeing your opponent list, it might be better.

Problem 2: most ordnance is unpredictable. You're spending a lot of points to spend several actions to make a low quality attack. Think about which ordnance are actually used: Flechette Torpedos (Cheap, has effect even on a miss), Ion Missiles (Cheap, same odds as any 3 die attack, making it more predictable. Also has a nice on-hit effect.), Proton Rockets (Cheap, has the same odds as any 4/5 dice attack). And, of course, any attack Blount can make, that's has on-hit effects, are great.

So: fixing Ordnance needs to either make them hit more consistently than a primary attack of the same number of actions used, plus a bit harder than that, because points. Or, ordnance needs to have an effect even if it misses.

As far as Deadeye goes: it would be phenomenal if it let you spend a focus token in place of a target lock in all circumstances. That way it would have value even after you fire your ordnance.

Gods, and give Horton an EPT. Pretty please.

Blade_merc:

Well proton rockets are not even affected by this, so I don't understand what you mean about that. As for Assault missiles you pay 5 freaking points for a chance to hit an do one damage to other possible ships within range 1. It's almost the cost of heavy laser, no issue here accept that now they are worth their points. Homing missiles don't need a fix, keeping your target lock after firing is how they are, and still a good card. Versus ships with free evade tokens like the deci and han or other ships likely to use them. I have used homing missiles on my Z-swarm on just one ship, so I can get by 3po and han's evade to do some serious damage early on.

I don't understand any of your points about them being over powered and not fixed. They are not overpowered and really the ones you mentioned have no issues with this change that I can see.

You have to explain better why it's so overpowered. Because I don't see it.

Well, I never said anything about proton rockets when replying to you...

If you can't see why keeping a TL to modify attacks with any missile/torpedo (which is almost the same as the benefit of a homing missile) would be bad, I dunno man.

Concussion Missiles that don't need to spend TL to fire and turn a blank to a hit for 4 points. Homing missile for 5 points. Who would ever take a homing missile at that point? Concussion becomes decisively better.

Assault missiles that do not have to spend TL to fire? That's crazy good. Again, makes homing missile completely pointless. Why ever take a homing missile for the same points when assault missiles have the same benefit AND splash damage?

And Jonus. Why ever take Jonus in a ordnance-heavy list? Your idea completely screws over his usefulness.

As I stated above, Concussion would be better in some instances, but Homing missile stops players from using evades and 3p0, and isanne, and other effect that use them. They have their uses I used them on my z's to get that shot in that Han cannot avoid, with his MF, and 3p0.

As for Jonus you are correct in some ways. But as far as I know, I thought I was one of the few people who use him with ordnance now.

Plus his ability still helps all secondary weapons, and he can now easily deliver his payload on target, where as before he couldn't consistently, so he basically becomes better in a lot of lists because before he couldn't re-roll his own results and now he can.

As for why it would be bad to have all missiles and torps work the same way as homing missiles with Target locks. I don't see why you think it's so bad. So you get to re-roll the dice it's not a certain hit, like a focus would turn. and in most it only helps you get one extra hit per 3 to 4 dice.

Make it a Mod for 0 points;

Ordnance Targeting System

Ordnance (Missiles and Torps) Target locks spent to fire ordinance are not removed until the end of the attack, if not used.

or

Possible Change as for you:

Make it a Mod for 0 points;

Ordnance Targeting System

Ordnance (Missiles and Torps) Target locks spent to fire ordinance are not removed until the end of the attack, if not used. However, any target locks spent to re-roll the ordnance attack, must re-roll all dice in the attack again.

(Just like Han's ability) That would allow a little more accuracy without going overboard and forcing you to make some decisions about them.

Could always make a torpedo slot that reduces the cost of torpedoes by 2.

Ban ACD? Maybe. But I'd just as soon ban hyper-mobile turreted ships.

I think we just need a bonus for shooting from the front arc, just a thought, I don't claim to be a meta thinker or anything.

Ahhhh..... No! Makes no sense. Serves no purpose.

Mostly just makes no sense.

Ban ACD? Maybe. But I'd just as soon ban hyper-mobile turreted ships.

The whole dumb turret list thing is a response to the Phantom. You nerf the super phantom and you'd see less people playing turrets. Super turrets are annoying and I don't see the point from a 'fun' perspective in flying a ship incessantly that gets to shoot no matter what in a game all about maneuvering, but they aren't what I would consider OP. You fly a swarm against one and they still melt.

As I have mentioned other times, whenever this topic rears it's head...

All ordnance is designed with a particular target in mind. They can be expensive but they must be cost effective against the specific type of target s they were designed to be used against. Not all will be worth taking in standardFor example: most (but not all) disposable ordnance is designed to take out large, heavily protected targets, not small, highly maneuverable snubfighters. Other ordnance is designed as anti-fighter weapons, and should be more effective against those targets than against more heavily armored/shielded ones. Some may be somewhat effective against both types of target or have special effects (Assault Missile, Ion Pulse Missile, Ion Torpedo, for example). Regardless of cost, they MUST be cost effective (and MORE effective than standard fighter "guns") against the targets they were meant to be used against and less so against those they were not designed to engage, if they do not do that, then they are WRONG and need to be fixed!

I wonder if it is really possible to make ordnance 'too cheap'. Imagine if missiles and torpedoes cost significantly less points. Torpedoes would be included on a lot of ships, but still limited by the number of slots available. Corran Horn would still have to rely on his primary weapon most of the time; when his torpedo is gone, it's gone. And a low amount of wasted points is still a waste. When your torpedo does an amount of damage that you typically do with your main weapon, you've wasted points.

Problems would arise with those ships capable of 'spamming' ordnance, mainly the TIE bombers and maybe the B-Wings (personally I don't see a problem with Y-Wings becoming da new thang, but maybe that's just me). The Bloated Bomber swarm would still, however, require careful play because once one bomber has delivered its payload, the next one has to be in position. Concentrated fire is not the best option, because overkill is also a waste.

So cheap ordnance also makes arc dodging more important. Especially if you consider the effect on turreted ships. If they carry cheap missiles, they still have to get the enemy in their firing arc to make it work. So turreted ships would need to maneuver more.

One problem with making ordnance cheap is that it becomes less differentiated - there are missiles and torpedoes costing everything between 2-6 points, and a decrease in points values across the board might make some of these equally cheap where they used to be priced. Epic play would probably suffer, as a torpedo run could become a too dealy tactic, knocking out the enemy's huge ship before it has a chance to do anything. Huge ships could become obsolete. Decimators also have quite a bit to lose here.

But at the same time, when going through the lists I see discussed on forums, I don't see a lot of wiggle room for even cheap ordnance to become an important factor. Now that squads of two or three ships are very viable, limiting ordnance through available slots more than through points might not change that much.

Maybe the following errata:

Torpedoes: No longer requires a target lock to use. Player may choose to use a target lock when firing a torpedo, removing the range limitation of the torpedo completely.

Missiles: No longer requires (focus? target lock?) to use. Player may choose to use a target lock to remove the requirement for the enemy ship to be within the primary firing arc.

This may not be balanced or even very effective, but it feels thematic:

Torpedoes are able to deliver long-range strikes across the board if targeting telemetry data is provided (i.e. a friendly ship hands them blue target lock tokens). An upgrade card could allow dedicated bombers to acquire TL at any range.

Missiles are used for dogfighting and hitting fast targets. They can be fired cold (within firing arc) or hot (locked on), in which case they chase the targeted ship regardless of firing arc.

Ban ACD? Maybe. But I'd just as soon ban hyper-mobile turreted ships.

The whole dumb turret list thing is a response to the Phantom. You nerf the super phantom and you'd see less people playing turrets. Super turrets are annoying and I don't see the point from a 'fun' perspective in flying a ship incessantly that gets to shoot no matter what in a game all about maneuvering, but they aren't what I would consider OP. You fly a swarm against one and they still melt.

Really, I recall people complaining about HSF long before Phantom. The 'whole dumb turret list thing' has been around since almost forever. Maneuvering isn't as important; the game isn't as fun; your whole skill set is don't run off the side or hit asteroids; meanwhile all of the arc dodging interceptors, etc... you practiced so hard with you only need to line them up and shoot.

I'm probably one of the few people on this board that doesn't have a problem with ordnance. With the right build and the right ordnance, it's actually pretty great.

[...]

You're not the only one. I like them too.

...5 points for an assault missile is just crap for all the hoops you have to jump through.

It's actually a thorny design problem.

It's easy to assign a price to an effect that's very consistent. Think about an HLC: it performs exactly the same way every time you use it, on every ship and in every context. Every time you fire it, it makes a secondary attack with 4 dice and a drastically decreased chance to crit.

Now compare that to an Assault Missile, which has a floor of a single secondary attack with 4 dice, and a ceiling of that attack plus 7 more damage. The extra damage is conditional not only on your chance to hit or miss (although that's already a pretty broad range of possibilities when you look at attacking a naked Patrol Leader vs attacking Soontir Fel + Push the Limit + Stealth + Autothrusters), but also on your opponent's list and your opponent's in-game decisions.

You probably can't price it at the floor, because then it's overpowered in some contexts. You definitely don't want to price it at the ceiling, because then it's overpriced in most contexts. (Arguably this is what happened, but never mind that.) You have to put it at some arbitrary point in the middle, but where you perceive the middle to be is also context-dependent.

And then you add in the fact that it can't be too far from the price of Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes, because those are already hanging out in a similar design space and you don't want to make them look either overpowered or overpriced. And on top of that, you add in the fact that Assault Missiles were very likely just as Wave 1 was released or even a bit earlier, so they didn't know what the metagame really looked like.

Frankly, it's amazing they came out usable at all.

But the Assault Missile can still be devastating to a TIE Swarm. I agree with the problem of pricing a one shot weapon when it has such a big gap between it's base and max damage. But unlimited weapon racks would be over powered, IMHO, and even minor bumps makes them too powerful in Epic/Cinematic play.

What if rather than trying to tweak everything into a perfect Zen balance, which I don't personally believe is possible, people only used ordnance in higher point games. The higher points would allow for multiple ships there by forcing a tendency toward the mean.

It seems to me that most people are concerned more with the fact that... ready... here it come... dice are fickled.

Ordnance can be very powerful but sometimes, especially in a one shot weapon, you're just firing blanks. Think of WWII torpedoes. If they hit then wow! But if not, or the range was not calculated correctly, or it was a dud, or if it turned around, or, or, or... But when they hit. The dice are fickled and on ordnance that exaggerates the issue.

I apologize for not getting off my same ole soap box (not trying to offend) but really, somethings might just be better off being used only when the situation calls for them. Next people will be calling to buff the X-Wing because a TIE Interceptor can out maneuver it or because one or two pilots out of eight don't get used as often. Oh wait!

I'm stepping down now if anyone wants to borrow my soap box.

I do quite enjoy playing ordnance equipped ships. Played a cheese list against a local at my FLGS who has done well for himself flying swarms at Regionals and Nationals. The list was:

4x Scimitar Squadron

Flechette Torpedo

Ion Pulse MIssile

Proximity Mine

Munitions Failsafe

Was quite fun versus his list:

4x Academy

2x Alpha

Dark Curse

Now admittedly the list was designed to fight smaller squads than swarms. But it held its own. Took out DC, an Alpha, and 2 Ties before running out of ordnance. Would have been better if the last 2 proxy mines I dropped did any damage. (The first pair did 4 hits and a Crit to the single Tie that set them off).

So playing with ordnance is not impossible.

Yeah, but turret lists pre-Phantom and wave 5 weren't nearly as common as right now. When I go to casual night at the FLGS and everyone but me is flying at least one turret it's hard not hate the cause of it.

Ban ACD? Maybe. But I'd just as soon ban hyper-mobile turreted ships.

The whole dumb turret list thing is a response to the Phantom. You nerf the super phantom and you'd see less people playing turrets. Super turrets are annoying and I don't see the point from a 'fun' perspective in flying a ship incessantly that gets to shoot no matter what in a game all about maneuvering, but they aren't what I would consider OP. You fly a swarm against one and they still melt.

Really, I recall people complaining about HSF long before Phantom. The 'whole dumb turret list thing' has been around since almost forever. Maneuvering isn't as important; the game isn't as fun; your whole skill set is don't run off the side or hit asteroids; mean while all of the arc dodging interceptors, etc... you practiced so hard with you only need to line them up and shoot.

I'm probably one of the few people on this board that doesn't have a problem with ordnance. With the right build and the right ordnance, it's actually pretty great.

[...]

You're not the only one. I like them too.

...5 points for an assault missile is just crap for all the hoops you have to jump through.

It's actually a thorny design problem.

It's easy to assign a price to an effect that's very consistent. Think about an HLC: it performs exactly the same way every time you use it, on every ship and in every context. Every time you fire it, it makes a secondary attack with 4 dice and a drastically decreased chance to crit.

Now compare that to an Assault Missile, which has a floor of a single secondary attack with 4 dice, and a ceiling of that attack plus 7 more damage. The extra damage is conditional not only on your chance to hit or miss (although that's already a pretty broad range of possibilities when you look at attacking a naked Patrol Leader vs attacking Soontir Fel + Push the Limit + Stealth + Autothrusters), but also on your opponent's list and your opponent's in-game decisions.

You probably can't price it at the floor, because then it's overpowered in some contexts. You definitely don't want to price it at the ceiling, because then it's overpriced in most contexts. (Arguably this is what happened, but never mind that.) You have to put it at some arbitrary point in the middle, but where you perceive the middle to be is also context-dependent.

And then you add in the fact that it can't be too far from the price of Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes, because those are already hanging out in a similar design space and you don't want to make them look either overpowered or overpriced. And on top of that, you add in the fact that Assault Missiles were very likely just as Wave 1 was released or even a bit earlier, so they didn't know what the metagame really looked like.

Frankly, it's amazing they came out usable at all.

But the Assault Missile can still be devastating to a TIE Swarm. I agree with the problem of pricing a one shot weapon when it has such a big gap between it's base and max damage. But unlimited weapon racks would be over powered, IMHO, and even minor bumps makes them too powerful in Epic/Cinematic play.

As if Whisper VI ACD FCS Gunner isn't just unlimited Advanced Proton Torpedoes? Again, we're being so cautious balancing munitions when we have a ship in the game that can already roll 5 modified attack dice without jumping through any hoops. That exists in the game, yet assault missiles at 3 points would be too overpowered? Um, okay.

Please tell me, Major Rhymer + 2x APT's + PtL for 41 points, or any number of super Phantom combinations?

If assault missiles were priced decently and they were used often, I would just spread out my swarm more. If I was flying a 7 or 8 swarm against someone with a list full of assault missiles and one assault missile damaged all of my ships, I kind of deserved it for being so stupid.

I really think if you just allow someone to use the TL or Focus that is required to fire it with the attack, it solves everything. It's not overpowering. It still requires the TL. It saves you from wasting points on one attack that might flub.

I really think if you just allow someone to use the TL or Focus that is required to fire it with the attack, it solves everything.

But you can already do that with both Homing Missiles and Prockets. Yet we don't see those used all that often as is.

Yeah, but turret lists pre-Phantom and wave 5 weren't nearly as common as right now.

How do you know? You said you weren't even here then. So quit trying to tell us that Han wasn't as popular back then or complained about as much, because most of us know better.

I really think if you just allow someone to use the TL or Focus that is required to fire it with the attack, it solves everything.

But you can already do that with both Homing Missiles and Prockets. Yet we don't see those used all that often as is.

Yeah, but turret lists pre-Phantom and wave 5 weren't nearly as common as right now.

How do you know? You said you weren't even here then. So quit trying to tell us that Han wasn't as popular back then or complained about as much, because most of us know better.

I said I started post wave 4, but before the meta was dominated by the Phantom. There were a handful of people playing the Falcon. More people played the firespray than the falcon in my area. Now there are 2/3 Phantom + Decimator players in my area that go to the weekly Friday tournament day among all the other variations of the fat turret list. Fat turret is the vast majority of lists in my area now. Surely you at least somewhat understand my frustration? Maybe not all 60 posts of it but if you had to face essentially the same 1 power list over and over again it be kind of annoying.

I guarantee you that HSF wasn't the majority of lists back then.

I really think if you just allow someone to use the TL or Focus that is required to fire it with the attack, it solves everything.

But you can already do that with both Homing Missiles and Prockets. Yet we don't see those used all that often as is.

Yeah, but turret lists pre-Phantom and wave 5 weren't nearly as common as right now.

How do you know? You said you weren't even here then. So quit trying to tell us that Han wasn't as popular back then or complained about as much, because most of us know better.

I said I started post wave 4, but before the meta was dominated by the Phantom. There were a handful of people playing the Falcon. More people played the firespray than the falcon in my area.

If you started at that time, it's probably because no one could get their hands on a Falcon.

I've been one of the only people in my area with a Falcon for a long, long time.

I really think if you just allow someone to use the TL or Focus that is required to fire it with the attack, it solves everything.

But you can already do that with both Homing Missiles and Prockets. Yet we don't see those used all that often as is.

Yeah, but turret lists pre-Phantom and wave 5 weren't nearly as common as right now.

How do you know? You said you weren't even here then. So quit trying to tell us that Han wasn't as popular back then or complained about as much, because most of us know better.

I said I started post wave 4, but before the meta was dominated by the Phantom. There were a handful of people playing the Falcon. More people played the firespray than the falcon in my area.

If you started at that time, it's probably because no one could get their hands on a Falcon.

I've been one of the only people in my area with a Falcon for a long, long time.

Eh, you could still find Falcons at that time, at least in my area.

[...]

If assault missiles were priced decently and they were used often, I would just spread out my swarm more. If I was flying a 7 or 8 swarm against someone with a list full of assault missiles and one assault missile damaged all of my ships, I kind of deserved it for being so stupid.

And if you did spread your swarm out then Howlrunner's ability would be useless and you would not be able to use the Death Blossom tactic from Hothie. In that case my 5 points would be well spent even if I didn't get to fire the Assault missile.

In this case the points were spent as a deterrent. Better still since I don't have risk the dice with the god's of fate.

[...]

If assault missiles were priced decently and they were used often, I would just spread out my swarm more. If I was flying a 7 or 8 swarm against someone with a list full of assault missiles and one assault missile damaged all of my ships, I kind of deserved it for being so stupid.

And if you did spread your swarm out then Howlrunner's ability would be useless and you would not be able to use the Death Blossom tactic from Hothie. In that case my 5 points would be well spent even if I didn't get to fire the Assault missile.

In this case the points were spent as a deterrent. Better still since I don't have risk the dice with the god's of fate.

I'm saying it would be much more of a soft counter to the swarm than the super phantom.

I really think if you just allow someone to use the TL or Focus that is required to fire it with the attack, it solves everything.

But you can already do that with both Homing Missiles and Prockets. Yet we don't see those used all that often as is.

I use them. I also think there is a difference between 4 pts and 5 pts.

If there was a way to choose which of your missiles you'd load after seeing your opponent list, it might be better.

What if you could include an optional ordnace bid in your list? ie. Say I take 10pts of ordnance and choose which ordnance after seeing my oponents list. It would be a pretty good buff to alot of the more situational ordnance and would only require the tourny rules to be updated. Instead of seeing my 2 flechett torps wasted agains a double falcon list, I could replace them with an ion pulse missle.

If there was a way to choose which of your missiles you'd load after seeing your opponent list, it might be better.

What if you could include an optional ordnace bid in your list? ie. Say I take 10pts of ordnance and choose which ordnance after seeing my oponents list. It would be a pretty good buff to alot of the more situational ordnance and would only require the tourny rules to be updated. Instead of seeing my 2 flechett torps wasted agains a double falcon list, I could replace them with an ion pulse missle.

Hidden upgrades are still very fun to play. You just have to trust your opponent isn't cheating..... and knows how their cards work.

The pilot cards are shown, but all upgrades are beneath the pilot card. Then, you reveal the card and keep it revealed when you use one. That way, you don't know if that firespray is carrying a proton bomb or not.

That's actually a really effective fix for ordinance.