Regarding the StarViper and formation flying, couldn't you just give Xizor a wingman or 2 of other StarVipers? They all share the same dial and maneuverability, so the others should be able to keep up with Xizor.

The other thing people are ignoring is that Xizor's ability makes him very likely to be your endgame piece. So even if he starts out flying in formation, there will come a break point where the leash comes off and he starts pulling crazy maneuvers.

I still can't say if he'll be really effective, but his options aren't as binary as "fly in formation the whole game" and "don't ever fly in formation".

Another thing I thought to do along those line is give him Lonewolf as an EPT, start in formation where your buddies soak some hit IF your opponent decide to target him and then, once the field is cleared and you get in the end game, start flying on your own and benefit from lone wolf.

Here's a sqaud idea I have that fit both idea: Pure Chaos or formation until the end-game:

Xizor + Virago + Autothruster + Advanced Sensor + Inertial Dampeners + EPT (Push the Limit or Predator or Lonewolf)

Syndicate Thug + Ion Cannon Turret

Binayre Pirate

Binayre Pirate

Binayre Pirate

Another thing I thought to do along those line is give him Lonewolf as an EPT, start in formation where your buddies soak some hit IF your opponent decide to target him and then, once the field is cleared and you get in the end game, start flying on your own and benefit from lone wolf.

Xizor's EPT slot was bugging me, because aside from VI or Predator (which go with basically everything) nothing really seemed to click. Thanks for the idea!

I think it's going to change up the meta for a while simply because there will be a glut of new ships, but I don't see the Phantom going away anytime soon. Mux is anti-Phantom, but so is Roark. Anything that counters the Phantom and is meh at everything else doesn't actually counter the Phantom because no one will play it consistently enough in tournament settings. See: Roark.

Agressors are PS 6. Can't win PS bid against a Phantom.

M3-A Interceptor 'swarms' will suffer the same fate that TIE Swarms or low PS TIE Interceptor 'swarms' like 5x Avenger Squadron do against Phantoms. They still won't get any shots and the Phantom will kill one every time it fires.

Scum Z-95's are still Z-95's. Crap against Phantoms.

Since everything will be crap against the Phantom still, no one will play swarms and fat turrets will still be a thing. Everyone will be excited for scum and buy a ton of ships for it and fly scum swarm and star vipers and all this neat wizbang stuff, then after a while they won't be played any more except for 1-2 scum builds that can compete with phantoms and fat turrets. Same thing that has already happened with all the rebel and imperial ships.

Have you actually tried proxying them through Vassal, or are you just speculating? Because the people who've actually flown them on Vassal can tell you that Scum have a lot of tricks against the Phantom that also work well against other builds.

Mux is miles ahead of Roark. Roark takes one ship and allows that ship to shoot before anyone else. Against any list that doesn't have a Phantom, this is not a huge deal.

Mux takes any enemy ship within range 2 and forces that ship to shoot last. It's not hard to mark one enemy ship to PS0 and burn it down, or at least saddle it with a ton of crits, before it ever gets a shot off. He's also a great setup piece for pilots using the Predator EPT.

Scum Z95s can take Feedback Array. A swarm of Scum Z95s can create huge no-fly zones for Phantoms, while still requiring multiple attacks to actually kill. For those willing to make the investment, seven Feedback Z95s should be a very strong list. Even five Feedback Z95s with a 25-30 point attacker should be able to do well, akin to the Tarnation X-Wing/Z95 list that's already won Store Championships in the current meta.

The Star Viper will go through a very interesting set on trials

The Star Viper is nowhere as durable as a loaded E-wing (took E'athn with sensors, PTL, and R2-D2 at the helm of a Z-95 squad and he never died, he even took down a full health Chiraneau mano a mano, the rest of the squad though...) but given the boost action and the potential for Segnor's, it will most likely be a hell of a lot more maneuverable.

Xizor's ability might roughly correlate to R2-D2 in terms of canceling damage on him (not to the poor squad, though). Even if the text of the ability does literally undo the damage (someone else takes it), it + 3 agility base + thrusters could well make him an anti-Biggs and "cancel" damage by making him a very unattractive target.

Xizor's ability might roughly correlate to R2-D2 in terms of canceling damage on him (not to the poor squad, though). Even if the text of the ability does literally undo the damage (someone else takes it), it + 3 agility base and access to focus/evade + thrusters could well make him an anti-Biggs and "cancel" damage by making him a very unattractive target.

The StarViper doesn't get Focus/Evade access. They only get access to Focus, with Boost, Barrel Roll and Target Lock as their other three actions.

Xizor's ability might roughly correlate to R2-D2 in terms of canceling damage on him (not to the poor squad, though). Even if the text of the ability does literally undo the damage (someone else takes it), it + 3 agility base and access to focus/evade + thrusters could well make him an anti-Biggs and "cancel" damage by making him a very unattractive target.

The StarViper doesn't get Focus/Evade access. They only get access to Focus, with Boost, Barrel Roll and Target Lock as their other three actions.

oh my mistake

though having four actions in its bar hardly qualifies as "only"

I've actually killed Whisper with 4 Feedback Zs in about 2 turns. They're pretty interesting. Personally I don't see the Phantom's maneuverability as all that difficult to predict (aside from Echo). I haven't faced it too often, but I watch a lot of matches on vassal, an I know where Whisper is going to be 80-90% of the time, and maybe 70% for Echo. And I've see it roll 5 blank green dice too many times to worry about it's defenses.

With the Starviper, I've only used Guri so far and her ability didn't proc very often but it along with AT it really saved her from being hit a few times. I see the SV as a multirole, it does well as a flanker, but can also keep in a formation with most of the other small S&V ships, and you have to option to do either whenever necessary, like in Vorpal's example.

The only blatant issue I can see with the starviper is the generics

I don't think FFG learned enough from the e-wing

The only blatant issue I can see with the starviper is the generics

I don't think PP learned enough from the e-wing

...Privateer Press?

Assuming you mean FFG , the StarViper is 2 points cheaper by default than the E-wing, and far more maneuverable than the E-wing (better dial, S-loops, and boost!) It obviously remains to be seen whether they learned enough, but it looks like they at least learned something.

The only blatant issue I can see with the starviper is the generics

I don't think PP learned enough from the e-wing

...Privateer Press?

Assuming you mean FFG , the StarViper is 2 points cheaper by default than the E-wing, and far more maneuverable than the E-wing (better dial, S-loops, and boost!) It obviously remains to be seen whether they learned enough, but it looks like they at least learned something.

aye, changed that

freudian slips are sometimes the cost of being involved with more than one game

Well, I will agree they learned something (at least it's cheaper). At the same time, though, is it cheap enough to warrant having a far lesser ability to customize its loadout (particularly in a faction with some very useful and very cheap upgrades)? Without Virago, it might as have an empty upgrade bar.

Then again, if I doubt we'll ever see one generic starviper then I can't really complain about not being able to customize two.

Well, I will agree they learned something (at least it's cheaper). At the same time, though, is it cheap enough to warrant having a far lesser ability to customize its loadout (particularly in a faction with some very useful and very cheap upgrades)? Without Virago, it might as have an empty upgrade bar.

Then again, if I doubt we'll ever see one generic starviper then I can't really complain about not being able to customize two.

Moreover, if one of the principal problems with the E-wing is that the generic pilots are too expensive for what they accomplish, it doesn't make sense to complain that you can't spend a lot of points on upgrades for a generic StarViper.

I mean, I get what you mean, and it would be really great to be able to throw Advanced Sensors or Accuracy Corrector on the PS1 Black Sun Goon or whatever. But if they're bad by themselves, upgrades are going to struggle to make them good, and if they're good by themselves they won't necessarily need a lot of upgrades.

Well, I will agree they learned something (at least it's cheaper). At the same time, though, is it cheap enough to warrant having a far lesser ability to customize its loadout (particularly in a faction with some very useful and very cheap upgrades)? Without Virago, it might as have an empty upgrade bar.

Then again, if I doubt we'll ever see one generic starviper then I can't really complain about not being able to customize two.

Moreover, if one of the principal problems with the E-wing is that the generic pilots are too expensive for what they accomplish, it doesn't make sense to complain that you can't spend a lot of points on upgrades for a generic StarViper.

I mean, I get what you mean, and it would be really great to be able to throw Advanced Sensors or Accuracy Corrector on the PS1 Black Sun Goon or whatever. But if they're bad by themselves, upgrades are going to struggle to make them good, and if they're good by themselves they won't necessarily need a lot of upgrades.

Statwise, I'd argue that the StarViper is superior to the E-Wing. If you don't have PTL, then Boost beats Evade on a 3-agility ship pretty much every time. Clearing stress through speed 1 moves is usually better than clearing it on 2s. The 1-turn is generally better than the 3-turn in a scrum. The only area where the E-Wing really beats it is in shielding, as 3 shields/2 hull is generally better than 1 shield/4 hull unless your meta features a lot of Proton Bombs.

Well, I will agree they learned something (at least it's cheaper). At the same time, though, is it cheap enough to warrant having a far lesser ability to customize its loadout (particularly in a faction with some very useful and very cheap upgrades)? Without Virago, it might as have an empty upgrade bar.

Then again, if I doubt we'll ever see one generic starviper then I can't really complain about not being able to customize two.

Moreover, if one of the principal problems with the E-wing is that the generic pilots are too expensive for what they accomplish, it doesn't make sense to complain that you can't spend a lot of points on upgrades for a generic StarViper.

I mean, I get what you mean, and it would be really great to be able to throw Advanced Sensors or Accuracy Corrector on the PS1 Black Sun Goon or whatever. But if they're bad by themselves, upgrades are going to struggle to make them good, and if they're good by themselves they won't necessarily need a lot of upgrades.

Well, it's kind of like the difference between the Avenger Squadron Interceptor and the Saber Squadron Interceptor

You give me an ept on the generic E or Viper, and you can bet I'll put it on the table

The only blatant issue I can see with the starviper is the generics

I don't think FFG learned enough from the e-wing

I think a BSE with AT for 27 points will be a solid ship. Hard to kill and fairly maneuverable. For the same price I think it will beat out a Knave easily.

Another thing I thought to do along those line is give him Lonewolf as an EPT, start in formation where your buddies soak some hit IF your opponent decide to target him and then, once the field is cleared and you get in the end game, start flying on your own and benefit from lone wolf.

That's actually a solid idea. I hadn't thought about Lone Wolf on Xizor because it runs counter to his ability...when in fact that's an excellent idea, because it covers the zones he doesn't have any advantages in. If you're not able to shuck a hit onto a buddy, odds are good you flew out and repositioned far enough away to trigger Lone Wolf and get a bonus anyway. Even with just Autothrusters, that's a pretty significant endgame ship, never mind Advanced Sensors and/or an Illicit upgrade. Ilike that a lot.

Xizor's EPT slot was bugging me, because aside from VI or Predator (which go with basically everything) nothing really seemed to click. Thanks for the idea!

That was my reasoning as well. Now the only zone where he won't get any defensive bonus is when he's in range 2 of a friendly units. Over that, lonewolf trigger and below, his teamates can take the hit.

The other EPT that I could see working is PtL+AdvSensor. Do your 2 actions and then reveal a green maneuver to clear stress. Being able to boost or barrel roll (or both) before moving should make this ship harder to block and more unpredictable. A little bit like a Phantom, with more starting positions but closer maneuvers. Should be very interesting. Only drawback is that it activates at PS7.

That was my reasoning as well. Now the only zone where he won't get any defensive bonus is when he's in range 2 of a friendly units. Over that, lonewolf trigger and below, his teamates can take the hit.

The other EPT that I could see working is PtL+AdvSensor. Do your 2 actions and then reveal a green maneuver to clear stress. Being able to boost or barrel roll (or both) before moving should make this ship harder to block and more unpredictable. A little bit like a Phantom, with more starting positions but closer maneuvers. Should be very interesting. Only drawback is that it activates at PS7.

the aggressor has already given us an idea of how stupid crazy a pre-sengor's boost will be, so we're in for fun times

I do think they designed Sengor's specifically for these low PS ships. Assuming they're close enough, a ship preforming a segnor's can get itself into a position where the enemy ship can't target it without k-turning, while still getting to shoot. I can count the number of times I've seen a phantom k-turn on my third, non-existent hand

That was my reasoning as well. Now the only zone where he won't get any defensive bonus is when he's in range 2 of a friendly units. Over that, lonewolf trigger and below, his teamates can take the hit.

The other EPT that I could see working is PtL+AdvSensor. Do your 2 actions and then reveal a green maneuver to clear stress. Being able to boost or barrel roll (or both) before moving should make this ship harder to block and more unpredictable. A little bit like a Phantom, with more starting positions but closer maneuvers. Should be very interesting. Only drawback is that it activates at PS7.

the aggressor has already given us an idea of how stupid crazy a pre-sengor's boost will be, so we're in for fun times

Indeed!

And except for IG-88D hard k-turn, the possibilities are even greater with a Starviper thanks to the barrel roll. What should make it even more fun is that since the Starviper has a small base, it will be harder to block and easier to pull-off even in a knife fight.

All those maneuver possibilites is the reason why at its core, I don't think the Starviper is meant to be restricted by flying in formation and why, while his ability will definetly be useful, I would have prefered if Xizor had a solo ability similar to Guri, N'dru, Boba, etc... might have to do with balance...

I do think they designed Sengor's specifically for these low PS ships. Assuming they're close enough, a ship preforming a segnor's can get itself into a position where the enemy ship can't target it without k-turning, while still getting to shoot.

Boost + Segnor's Loop is good. If you can handle the PS hit of not running Veteran Instincts, Stay On Target + Boost + Segnor's Loop is even better. The Starviper isn't great with greens but it's good enough, and its dial is otherwise so good that Stay On Target makes you about as unpredictable as you can get.

I can count the number of times I've seen a phantom k-turn on my third, non-existent hand

My dad would have said "You can count how often that happens on a blind butcher's fingers."

Really I k-turn all the time with my phantoms for great effect.

Indeed!

And except for IG-88D hard k-turn, the possibilities are even greater with a Starviper thanks to the barrel roll. What should make it even more fun is that since the Starviper has a small base, it will be harder to block and easier to pull-off even in a knife fight.

All those maneuver possibilites is the reason why at its core, I don't think the Starviper is meant to be restricted by flying in formation and why, while his ability will definetly be useful, I would have prefered if Xizor had a solo ability similar to Guri, N'dru, Boba, etc... might have to do with balance...

I can see the merit of flying Xizor in formation.

His ability makes it a massive pain in the ass to target him when you could be more effectively target his retinue, instead. On the other hand, the less ships he has around him, the more maneuverable he gets.

I just don't want Fel to be the next Phantom with all those soon to be threads about how Soontir is overpowered/breaking the game/easy mode... Please... not him too...

I don't think that's going to happen, because I don't think it's the 4 green dice that is the problem with Phantoms*. The problem is the fact that they get to do so much of their movement selection in the activation phase, when the predicting of moves in the planning phase is such a big part of what makes this game fun. Autothrusters don't give ships any more movement selections in the activation phase.

*If four green dice were invulnerable then we wouldn't need Autothrusters to make Interceptors viable

Interceptors still won't be viable, even after Autothrusters. Soontir will remain the only representative of a dying religion. At the end of the day, it is still a ship with only 3 hull.

I still want to fly a Alpha swarm though. 5 with Autothrusters! Could they do enough damage before being blown up?

Interceptors still won't be viable, even after Autothrusters. Soontir will remain the only representative of a dying religion. At the end of the day, it is still a ship with only 3 hull.

So is the TIE fighter, and Phantoms only have 4 hull. Proxy Interceptors + Autothrusters a few times before you dismiss the upgrade entirely.

Here's a sqaud idea I have that fit both idea: Pure Chaos or formation until the end-game:

Xizor + Virago + Autothruster + Advanced Sensor + Inertial Dampeners + EPT (Push the Limit or Predator or Lonewolf)

Syndicate Thug + Ion Cannon Turret

Binayre Pirate

Binayre Pirate

Binayre Pirate

I find this funny as the list I developed so far is pretty similar:

Xizor + Virago + Adv Sensors + Autothrusters + Outmaneuver

Syndicate Thug + Ion Turret + Unhinged Astromech

3 x Binayre Pirates

I wouldn't fly it in formation. Well, on the approach, but then I'd scatter and scramble in a giant furball. With the ability to do a boost or barrel roll before I do an action, I can pretty much end up anywhere near one of my own guys for the special ability. I'd like to think that it would be very hard to pin Xizor down. The Z's can even be effective if you ionize someone and then are able to get within Range 1 of such target. Xizor can cover their flanks.

For Xizor, I might see myself going to VI if I'm having a problem with high PS pilots. We will see Soontir Fel more often, too, and it just might be needed. I am going to avoid PTL on him as I don't know if his dial will hurt him enough. Also, I just want to use something different. Predator is neat, but predictable. I think Outmaneuver might really shine on someone like Xizor, especially if I get the Focus or TL before I do the red maneuver to get behind someone.

When it comes to the Scyk, I'm excited about Laetin as a sniper.

Laetin A'shera + Hvy Scyk + Mangler Cannon + Stealth Device = 27 pts

It seems to me that she's been tailor made to withstand Gunner. If only I could get Autothrusters on her. I think she would do well to sit on the flanks and snipe in at people, but be maneuverable enough to zip through a crowd and get to a safe spot again. One bad roll can end her, but that's the same with a lot of ships.

I think the generic Scyk will find use. If you think about it, you have 2 cheap ships; Z-95 and Scyk. Some of us like generic Tie Fighters not flown in formation and have gotten good with them. There are times I'd rather have a Scyk to arc dodge and dance around than a clunky ole Z-95. Here's a list I'm planning on doing just that called Hide and Scyk

Laetin A'shera + Hvy Scyk + Mangler Cannon + Stealth Device

Kavil + Blaster Turret + R4 Agro

2 x Cartel Spacer

Binayre Spacer + Ion Pulse Missile

All but Laetin go into the furball. Z-95 tries to ionize the biggest threat. Cartel's try to position on flanks and/or block. Kavil doesn't need to be in arc to fire. The Z-95 then tries to block while everyone else tries not to get shot and get some shooting in. Laetin is sniping the whole time.

I just don't want Fel to be the next Phantom with all those soon to be threads about how Soontir is overpowered/breaking the game/easy mode... Please... not him too...

I don't think that's going to happen, because I don't think it's the 4 green dice that is the problem with Phantoms*. The problem is the fact that they get to do so much of their movement selection in the activation phase, when the predicting of moves in the planning phase is such a big part of what makes this game fun. Autothrusters don't give ships any more movement selections in the activation phase.

*If four green dice were invulnerable then we wouldn't need Autothrusters to make Interceptors viable

Well, I think the four green dice have something to do with it

Also the four red dice, and the system slot, and the crew slot, and ACD to give it essentially the best red/green stats and upgrade cards in the card while also giving it a pre-manuever decloak every turn which makes it several times more difficult to block. It's a big bundle of powerful things shoved into a tiny ship (but apparently ships that small have a cloaking device)

Fell has literally none of these advantages and he doesn't even get shields naturally (Well, stealth device sure)

He's going to be a strong contender, but anyone claiming that he is worse than or even similar to a phantom is going to have to present some hard evidence because game mechanics do not back up that claim