Hey all,

Topic that came up and I think is a big deal:

Are Skirmish Upgrades counted as being Deployment Cards?

Why the answer is important:

1) If they are, you can use Temporary Alliance to ally in Rebel Command into Scum and Devious Scheme/First Strike /the other Temporary Alliance into Empire

2) If they are, you can exhaust them to play Take the Initiative, so you don't have to exhaust models.

3) If they are, you could buy both Temporary Alliance cards to get Rebel units in Empire...

I originally thought they were not considered Deployment cards because they did not provide models. However, The Skirmish Rules and RRG definitely say they are Deployment Cards and there is no rules that say you cannot exhaust them/select them with Temporary Alliance.

What are ya'lls thoughts?

If they can be used for this I see that as being a big incentive to use at least Temporary Alliance, and a huge benefit to Empire.

EDIT: Temporary Alliance is Unique, so that solves at least one problem.

My gut says no, since Temporary Alliance says it is a "skirmish upgrade" on the card, has no models, and as such is never "activated", nor is it "ready".

Down that rabbit hole, one might try to use that strategy to delay your own activations by activating it, or worse, you would then argue that you are never fully wiped off the table since "Temporary Alliance" cannot be killed and then scored for VP's.

My gut says no, since Temporary Alliance says it is a "skirmish upgrade" on the card, has no models, and as such is never "activated", nor is it "ready".

Down that rabbit hole, one might try to use that strategy to delay your own activations by activating it, or worse, you would then argue that you are never fully wiped off the table since "Temporary Alliance" cannot be killed and then scored for VP's.

You do not activate cards, so that doesn't matter. When you activate a model or group of models, you rotate the card. So there is no issue with delay tactics.

Also, you do not kill the cards, you kill the models. If you have no models you lose. The rules make no mention to the cards themselves, other than calculating VPs for them.

See Skirmigh Guide Page 4 under "Playing a Skirmish" item 1, second paragraph

Then, starting with the player that has initiative, the players take turns activating deployment groups and performing actions with the corresponding figures. Once all Deployment cards are exhausted, players proceed to the Status Phase.

Its weird they use Deployment Cards here, since the state later that Skirmish upgrades are a type of Deployment Card later in the book but they cannot be activated.

And Skirmish Guide pg5 under "Winning a Skirmish", last line

If all of a player’s figures are defeated, he loses the game immediately, regardless of victory points.

Notice "figures"

I'll add the pertinent line from the Skirmish Guide about Deployment Cards as well. Page 6 under "Army Building"->"Choosing Deployment Cards"

Skirmish Upgrade Cards: Some Deployment cards have the “Skirmish Upgrade” trait. These cards provide special abilities, but unlike normal Deployment cards, they do not have corresponding figures. These cost deployment points and often have a game changing ability (for example, allowing an army to contain Deployment cards from multiple affiliations).

I dunno, I still think that's reaching. And I highly doubt that this was intended for how Skirmish Upgrade cards work. For 1 point, you get some flexibility, and you have the card to show for it for ease of reference.

I would still think that since you cannot activate a skirmish upgrade, this would prevent you from exhausting it to play "Take The Initiative".

Let's take it a step further, if you were able to exhaust a skirmish upgrade, the game would never progress, since it would never go beyond the activation phase and hit the status phase, unless someone played "Take The Initiative":

"Activation" RRG, Page 3:

After resolving an activation, exhaust the figure’s activation token (for heroes) or Deployment card (for all other figures).

it is clear here that you resolve activations, then exhaust deployment cards.

"Playing A Skirmish", SG, Page 4:

Activation Phase:
Players first resolve any abilities that are triggered at the start of a round (for example, from the Skirmish Mission card).

Then, starting with the player that has initiative, the players take turns activating deployment groups and performing actions with the corresponding figures. Once all Deployment cards are exhausted, players proceed to the Status Phase.

Nothing inherent to the game allows you to exhaust a Skirmish Upgrade card, because there is no corresponding deployment group associated with it to activate.

Your ruling would break the game.

I think it's implicit on the spirit of the game that a skirmish upgrade card is not considered a deployment card during your skirmish game while resolving it. Yes, in the rules they are refered as "deployment Cards" but that's because all cards you use to "build" your skirmish deck are called Deployment cards. but their trait it's a special trait, because they don't have figures, they just ADD a special ability to your deck, no more.

if during the game they were considered Deployment cards "in play" then your statement contradicts your own arguments. the rules all clear "Once all Deployment cards are exhausted, players proceed to the Status Phase" . If they are deployment cards active in play, then they must exhaust first to continue playing, but how do you exhaust a card with no ability to be exhausted? You are forced to play "take Initiative" to exhaust it and be able to step into the next phase...(for this round)... and how about the next round? and next one?...

Yes they are deployment cards, but because you use them to build your deck and gain that ability. Once you start the game, they are not active, not "in play",so can't be targeted by game effects. I know is not in the rules, it doesn't need to be in the rules in fact, because is the most coherent thing. They already made their part allowing you to use more than one affiliation, or increasing your deployment points. no more. But if you consider them active and in play, then you directly can't play a skirmish game because you will be stuck always in the Activation phase.

Let me start by saying I agree, which is why I originally thought they were not Deployment Cards at all, but a separate type of card.

But if we strictly read the RAW they are deployment cards and there are no rules which say Skirmish Upgrade Deployment Cards cannot be exhausted.

"Playing A Skirmish", SG, Page 4:

Activation Phase:
Players first resolve any abilities that are triggered at the start of a round (for example, from the Skirmish Mission card).

Then, starting with the player that has initiative, the players take turns activating deployment groups and performing actions with the corresponding figures. Once all Deployment cards are exhausted, players proceed to the Status Phase.

Nothing inherent to the game allows you to exhaust a Skirmish Upgrade card, because there is no corresponding deployment group associated with it to activate.

Your ruling would break the game.

I 100% agree, which is why I sent it to FFG as well. I think it is pretty clear their intent was that after all models were activated you move to the next phase, even though their own wording is contradictory. The line immediately after the one you quoted is the following:

Status Phase: After all figures have been activated , players resolve the cleanup steps in preparation for the next game round.

I hate for this to turn into a RAW vs RAI debate, but this is the first issue I have hit that I believe needs a clarification and possibly an errata.

At the moment I think the only way to rule it is that they are deployment cards and can be exhausted by card effects given how the Skirmish Rules and RRG are written. My preference is that they say they are not deployment cards at all so that you could not splash them cross-faction (since I believe this makes them difficult to balance and takes away the themes of the factions), but given how the rules are written it is impossible for me to support that position/desire at the moment.

Obviously we have to overlook what you quoted so the game is playable, and assume it was an error, since as you noted Skirmish upgrades do not normally become exhausted but are clearly stated to be a type of Deployment Card.

Yes they are deployment cards, but because you use them to build your deck and gain that ability. Once you start the game, they are not active, not "in play",so can't be targeted by game effects. I know is not in the rules, it doesn't need to be in the rules in fact, because is the most coherent thing. They already made their part allowing you to use more than one affiliation, or increasing your deployment points. no more. But if you consider them active and in play, then you directly can't play a skirmish game because you will be stuck always in the Activation phase.

I want to agree with you, but they never make a distinction on what is 'in play'. This is not a card game so we cannot apply in/out of play logic to the rules. You put the cards out at the same time as all the 'normal' Deployment Cards and they are the same card type. So how can we differentiate them the way you describe? Nothing I have read in the rules supports what you say.

Again, I do agree, I believe their intent was that they simply modify the game and are not able to be used as I described. That being said, the rules do not support that position at all, so what we are left with is a grey area at best.

At the very least, i think it is good that we are finding potential loopholes and/or wording issues like this and bringing them to the attention of FFG so they can be resolved.

For the good of the game!

I think the conversation has veered off topic. The original question was whether or not Imperials could use their Temporary Alliance skirmish upgrade deployment card to pull in First Strike or Devious Scheme. From the rules as written, I've seen nothing that says this cannot be done so an Imperial list can use two points to forge a Temporary Alliance that allows them to use Devious Scheme.

the conversation never went off topic. the second point in the original post talks about using cards like temporary alliance as the exhausted card for the effect on Take initiative. is the thing we have been talking about and waiting for FFG to give us light about that specific point because is really something that needs to be clarified by them

I would expect that this gets some sort of explanation or (more likely) errata when the tournament floor rules are released. It's obviously not the intent, but you're right that rules as written it's allowed.

It says that upgrade cards are traits. It states that traits have no gameplay effect but maybe referred to by other components.

I read this as that that they have an effect but not when it comes to the overall play of the game?

I get they are still a deployment card so I guess you could still act it by take init. I think the point is they have no effect after the game is started. I hope this gets cleared up.

Did anyone email FFG on this one? I would like to add this to the FAQ on the forum.

Copy/paste whole email here please.

yes, i asked FFG about this and still waiting for a reply.

Lemme know and I will add it to the FAQ.

Can you exhaust deployment upgrade cards so you can use command cards like take initiative?

You cannot exhaust deployment upgrade cards for these effects. This will be clarified in an FAQ. Thanks!

-Jonathan Ying

Good news everyone. This was covered in the Official FAQ 1.0.1 . There's quite a few useful pieces of information there for you.

DEPLOYMENT CARDS
The “Deployment Cards” entry on page 11 should include the following bullet:
“Some Deployment cards have the Skirmish Upgrade trait. Rules and abilities that reference Deployment cards do not affect, do not include, and cannot manipulate Skirmish Upgrade cards unless the rule or ability states otherwise.”
For example, a player cannot use the card “Temporary Alliance” to add Skirmish Upgrade cards from other factions to his army. Or, as another example, when using “Take Initiative,” players cannot choose to exhaust one of their Skirmish Upgrade cards.

...whether or not Imperials could use their Temporary Alliance skirmish upgrade deployment card to pull in First Strike or Devious Scheme. From the rules as written, I've seen nothing that says this cannot be done so an Imperial list can use two points to forge a Temporary Alliance that allows them to use Devious Scheme.

This is what I've been trying to figure out, googling hasn't help me find a confirmation at all.

Has this been confirmed 100% anywhere that during skirmish Imperials/Rebels using Temporary alliance can also use First strike or Devious scheme?

To me it seems like an obvious Yes. but I just wanted to make sure 100% before Regionals this weekend.

Thanks.

This was addressed in the FAQ:

"a player cannot use the card “Temporary Alliance” to add Skirmish Upgrade cards from other factions to his army. "

So no, you cannot use Temporary Alliance to use First Strike or Devious Scheme.

Thanks. Good to know.