This seems pretty clear to me that any touch, other than the one exception for Inline Ships given in the FAQ, is considered an overlap, with all the effects that carries with it.

Then either you typed that wrong or you need to go and read it again, because it really says the exact opposite of that.

ships are only touching if they had overlapped a ship after executing a maneuver

Makes it pretty clear that other ways of coming into physical contact with a ship, barrel rolling or just deploying in contact do not count as touching because there was no overlap.

An overlap aways results in touching, but just being in physical contact does not equal overlap.

I put the question about barrel rolling into a touching position, among others, to FFG and got this reply:

Hello Dave,

In response to your rules question:

If I barrel roll and end up not overlapped with an enemy ship, but touching it exactly, am I still prohibited from declaring it a target, and it the same to me?

If ships are set up so their bases are touching, either parallel or one behind the other, and each makes the same move, their bases will still be touching. Does this prevent either, or both, of the ships from using an action?

I guess the base question in all this is - is touching considered as overlapping, whether it occurs from an actual overlap and move backwards or just occurs naturally?

I am a new player and there is a current discussion on this in the forum's Misconceptions thread, which I found quite confusing. Thanks!

Dave

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From the technical definition of “touching,” ships are only touching if they had overlapped a ship after executing a maneuver. Therefore a ship cannot barrel roll, boost, or decloak into a position that it is touching since you cannot overlap another ship with those game effects.

Since you are new player, I would recommend that you read the FAQ. It also explains the idea of “overlapping inline ships” which is the second case you brought up.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

This seems pretty clear to me that any touch, other than the one exception for Inline Ships given in the FAQ, is considered an overlap, with all the effects that carries with it.

I'm not sure what to say other than read the first sentence very carefully:

“ships are only touching if they had overlapped a ship after executing a maneuver” (Emphasis mine)

So just to be clear in ANY other situation where ships are in physical contact, but there was no overlapping, the ships are NOT touching.

I can see why you would infer that, but we don't really know that they intended to set that precedent, rather than just make that one specific case.

Your right, we need the clarification (and I don't think the email in Toyguy's post is sufficient, though it helps).

The problem is that it doesn't really matter what they intended with that FAQ entry because what it does is establish that it is possible within the game to be in physical contact and not be "touching". It has been mentioned upthread that "touching" isn't a defined game term, what this FAQ entry does is demonstrate that it IS a particular game state, we just don't know the full definition of that state. Their intention with the entry is irrelevant because the entry creates a need for a more precise definition.

Toyguy's email verifies that "touching" has to be accompanied by an overlap, but still leaves some issues vague regarding ships that overlapped in a previous round and still remain in physical contact.

It took me a long while to realize that bases are actually square. For some reason, their shape always looked that they were longer than they were wide. Knowing they are perfectly square has large ramifications to maneuvering.

It looks rectangular because your eyes are discounting the raised edges that hold the pilot insert onto the base.

I mention this because it's part of another huge misconception: the standard firing arc is not 90 degrees. It's actually closer to 88 degrees. This was discovered when bringing the game to vassal.

This is the one I see most often, along with the associated problem of people stubbornly retaining the "if you're in range to shoot me, I'm in range to shoot you" mindset of other gaming systems.

Lots of people don't get that range has to be measured from within your arc, and that it's totally possible for one ship to have arc and range to a target, but for the target to have arc and *not* have range for the counter-attack.

I've had to let this slide numerous times during competitive events and endured technically-illegal return fire (because I didn't want to sour my opponent by bringing in a judge, or because I didn't trust an inexperienced TO to make the right call). The worst example happened in a game where I would have lost if my opponent's final (illegal! beyond range 3!) shot had connected. Thankfully I evaded enough damage to preserve the win, but I was gritting my teeth.

Can you explain how if two ships are both in arc of one another, one might be in range 3 and one might not be? This feels like I'm missing something big.

Can you explain how if two ships are both in arc of one another, one might be in range 3 and one might not be? This feels like I'm missing something big.

It is difficult to explain without pictures, but basically, because the bases are square instead of circular, it is possible for ship A to be straddling the line of the firing arc of ship B in such a way that the closest point to closest point in arc from A to B is at one range, but the closest point to closest point in arc from B to A is slightly further away, and thus it is possible that they might not be at the same ranges.

It is a pretty rare corner case (ha ha, see what I did there) but it does happen.

The problem is that it doesn't really matter what they intended with that FAQ entry because what it does is establish that it is possible within the game to be in physical contact and not be "touching". It has been mentioned upthread that "touching" isn't a defined game term, what this FAQ entry does is demonstrate that it IS a particular game state, we just don't know the full definition of that state. Their intention with the entry is irrelevant because the entry creates a need for a more precise definition.

Toyguy's email verifies that "touching" has to be accompanied by an overlap, but still leaves some issues vague regarding ships that overlapped in a previous round and still remain in physical contact.

Frank Brooks' e-mail gives us the definition of the game term. I found it quite explicit in FFG's email to Toyguy...

From the technical definition of “touching,” ships are only touching if they had overlapped a ship after executing a maneuver. Therefore a ship cannot barrel roll, boost, or decloak into a position that it is touching since you cannot overlap another ship with those game effects.

He starts by clearly stating that he is giving the "technical definition of 'touching'". I read this to mean he is defining the game term "touching."

He then proceeds to say that "touching" can ONLY be a direct result of overlapping during whilst attempting a maneuver. And he makes it explicitly clear that boost, barrel roll and decloak CANNOT cause you to be "touching".

Which issues remain vague?

I cannot think of a case that is not covered by Frank Brooks' definition of "touching" and the 2 relevant FAQ entries.

Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. If both ships are the same base size and execute the same unobstructed straight [ ] maneuver during the next round, the ships do not overlap each other and are not considered touching, even though they remain physically adjacent.

If a model begins its activation touching another ship and executes a [0] maneuver, the ships are considered touching.

Edit: I hope this post didn't come off as arrogant or anything of the sort. I'm just trying to settle this issue for good.

Which issues remain vague?

I already mentioned them/it.

Toyguy's email verifies that "touching" has to be accompanied by an overlap, but still leaves some issues vague regarding ships that overlapped in a previous round and still remain in physical contact.

The FAQ on stationary maneuvers doesn't address whether they remain touching because of the maneuver or because the ship didn't move out of physical contact. What if the ships remain in physical contact next round? There was an overlap, they were touching, they are not "inline ships". Basically, Frank's email addresses when ships enter the state of "touching", but doesn't fully clarify when the state ends, and the FAQ on stationary maneuvers doesn't say WHY they stay touching..

Toyguy's email verifies that "touching" has to be accompanied by an overlap, but still leaves some issues vague regarding ships that overlapped in a previous round and still remain in physical contact.

The FAQ on stationary maneuvers doesn't address whether they remain touching because of the maneuver or because the ship didn't move out of physical contact. What if the ships remain in physical contact next round? There was an overlap, they were touching, they are not "inline ships". Basically, Frank's email addresses when ships enter the state of "touching", but doesn't fully clarify when the state ends, and the FAQ on stationary maneuvers doesn't say WHY they stay touching..

How do you propose they remain in physical contact, without being in either of the 2 cases addressed in the FAQ?

Seems like either the ships performed a non-0 maneuver and overlapped again, and therefore are touching, or one of them performed a "0" maneuver, and therefore they are still touching.

It seems to me that the "touching" state ends as soon as one of the 2 ships performs a maneuver, barrel roll, boost or decloak. I don't see us needing a clarification on this?

Maybe there's just some scenario I am not thinking of?

A ship can perform a maneuver and overlap a ship, causing it to not move and remain in contact with a DIFFERENT ship that had overlapped it the previous round.

Reference this thread (among others, this topic comes up a lot) which has pictures

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/132076-oicunn-surrounded/

I also lodged a rules query yesterday on the same issue, I think Frsnks response is a little clearer for the naysayers who still think ships can be touching (game sense) without overlapping;

Good morning,

I was wondering if you could clarify some points regarding overlapping and touching.

I was informed at a recent event that I was unable to execute a barrel roll as to fit my base would have to end up touching either another ship or an asteroid, but would be overlapping neither. My understanding is only overlapping prevents the barrel roll, and that I am free to slide my ship along the template to touch either an obstacle or a ship, providing I don't overlap either. Is this correct?

As we discussed this, there was also confusion as to whether you could target a ship you were touching but did not overlap in the activation phase. The rules state you cannot target a ship you are touching, but it only discusses this under the section of the rules dealing with overlapping. For example, if two ships who overlapped in the previous turn both moved the same distance in the same direction the following turn, the ships would end up touching although neither overlapped the other. Are these ships legal targets to each other?

I appreciate any enlightenment you can shed here.

Kind regards,

Paul

In the FAQ we have made a better definition of touching. Touching only occurs if ships had previously overlapped; therefore ships cannot be touching if they didn’t overlap. Although ships may appear to “touch” if there was no point that the bases were overlapping and had to be moved back, they are not touching from the game’s perspective.

The example you bring up in the second paragraph is also discussed in a section called “overlapping inline ships” in the FAQ. In this case, during the second turn of movement, since the ships did not need to back up since they didn’t overlap one another, they are not touching and therefore can shoot one another.

Hope that clears things up a bit,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

wow! I've been playing for almost two years and just now I'm realizing that not all of the missiles/torpedoes cards say "spend your target lock"

this is embarrassing

Don't worry, you're in good company. Several others in this thread (plus me) have said something similar.

*raises hand*

Same here.

By the way, I'm glad that the overlapping, touching, adjacent/contact discussion is being had again. I do think this is one of the most confusing (but necessary) rules in the game. I'm glad that my understanding has been reconfirmed.

It's too bad that Rauhughes had to lose his tournament match over it. I'd be pretty miffed if it had happened to me. However, at least there's the opportunity to be righteously indignant when vindicated after the fact. For some people that's just as good as winning!

Cheers mikael, although I'm not bitter about it. It was my first event ever and I went solely to get an idea of the competitive x-wing scene and had a great time on the day. I was more surprised that of the 15 other people there, no one understood this rule correctly.

I will certainly be taking the FAQ to my store championship event this weekend, just to be safe! Haha

It sounds like you have a pretty new X-Wing community, or your veterans are just not really attention-to-detail type people.

At the end of the day (IMO), it's really much more about the social aspect than the alternate art cards and acrylic tokens that you might win. Being the righteously indignant Martin Luther who declares "Here I stand" on some rule in the face of 15 people is not going to be the winner at the end of the tournament, even if he wins 1st place.

One tournament that I attended had an incident where one guy in the heat of the match got quite ornery about the letters on the target lock of his opponent. He was probably technically correct, but the way he handled it was very poor, and the other people there probably lost a measure of respect for him (though he's otherwise a nice-enough-seeming guy).

They're fairly new to the competitive scene I think, but certaintly a few have played in events last year. I Met all the players for he first time at the event though so I'm not really in a position to judge thier experience.

Like I say, it was no biggie for me. I wasn't going to make a hoo-har in my first game with a new group so I let it slide. Those acrylics would have been nice though... Haha!

Well, that does sound cleared up now. You're free to come into physical contact with another ship without penalty, so long as you wouldn't overlap.

Making such a technical use of a generally non-specific word ("touching") is certainly un-intuitive.

Making such a technical use of a generally non-specific word ("touching") is certainly un-intuitive.

Oh aye, it's a bit crap really. I suspect it was more of a correction than a clarification on their part. Changed their minds after putting out the core rules maybe?

Edit: Well, not changed their minds as such, just realised they'd said something they didn't' mean.

The core rules were written in a very loose, casual writing style. I rather suspect that they didn't realize the game would become as big and popular as it did and would have need of a more precise and technical language. For the most part, Abilities in more recent waves have been more precisely worded, but they are still kinda stuck with the lackadaisical phrasing of some things in the core book and wave 1 cards.

I constantly forget to use my Predator rerolls.

I constantly forget to use my Predator rerolls.

That's not a misconception.

There is a "may" in there so it is optional but there is a difference between not taking the reroll and forgetting about the ability. This is type of thing that leads those big thread about whether or not people should remind others of abilities they have. Where X-Wing a video game every time you rolled an attack Predator would come up and you'd elect to use it or not before passing play; some like to say that forgetting about something is the same as saying you don't want to use it.

This is type of thing that leads those big thread about whether or not people should remind others of abilities they have.

Let's not go down that path

I constantly forget to use my Predator rerolls.

That's not a misconception.

There is a "may" in there so it is optional but there is a difference between not taking the reroll and forgetting about the ability. This is type of thing that leads those big thread about whether or not people should remind others of abilities they have. Where X-Wing a video game every time you rolled an attack Predator would come up and you'd elect to use it or not before passing play; some like to say that forgetting about something is the same as saying you don't want to use it.

That reminds me of another one, but I think someone already mentioned it: you can't reroll the same die twice. Which in turn reminds me of another one, although not really a misconception, more a common mistake: using your focus before rerolling! Obviously nobody will stop you turning your retooled focuses into hits, but strictly speaking it's wrong.

Which in turn reminds me of another one, although not really a misconception, more a common mistake: using your focus before rerolling! Obviously nobody will stop you turning your retooled focuses into hits, but strictly speaking it's wrong.

And the distinction can be very important now, especially thanks to the R4 Agromech!

There were other, more contrived ways* of making the distinction important before, but the Agromech is a perfect example!

*For the hell of it: Attack with Garven, spend focus, pass it to Jake Farrell. Jake Farrel does a Barrel-Roll action, triggers Experimental Interface and uses Squad Leader to pass an action to Dutch. Dutch performs a Target Lock action, and allows Garven to acquire a Target Lock. Garven can now re-roll his blank attack dice!

Which in turn reminds me of another one, although not really a misconception, more a common mistake: using your focus before rerolling! Obviously nobody will stop you turning your retooled focuses into hits, but strictly speaking it's wrong.

And the distinction can be very important now, especially thanks to the R4 Agromech!

There were other, more contrived ways* of making the distinction important before, but the Agromech is a perfect example!

*For the hell of it: Attack with Garven, spend focus, pass it to Jake Farrell. Jake Farrel does a Barrel-Roll action, triggers Experimental Interface and uses Squad Leader to pass an action to Dutch. Dutch performs a Target Lock action, and allows Garven to acquire a Target Lock. Garven can now re-roll his blank attack dice!

Good point! Will have to be careful to remember that people can't use change the focus results following the target lock rerolls. I bet that becomes a common mistake.