Ok. The correction is....

I didn't mean to imply that you said anything wrong... I, like you, found Rauhughes example confusing.

It isn't clear to me if Rauhughes meant that:

A) his Barrel Roll was a tight fit and people disagreed as to whether or not his ship could fit

B) he wanted to Barrel Roll into a position where his ship was "touching" another ship, and therefore could not be shot at by said ship

His use of the word "touching" is confusing, especially since he is trying to point out the technical difference between "touching" and "overlapping".

Using generic X-Wings. Putting Turbo Lasers on a Corvette. Bringing a Corvette for epic. Using ordnance to deal damage.

Ok. The correction is....

I didn't mean to imply that you said anything wrong... I, like you, found Rauhughes example confusing.

....

I was just trying to keep it light. Adding no correction there was the same as agreeing.

I guess another misconception can be taking the idea of "fly casual" too far.

OP, thank you for making this topic, as I have learned about several things that I had no idea that I was doing wrong. I may actually use Homing Missiles now, for one thing...

For me, the biggest one I see is people don't understand the difference between TOUCHING and OVERLAPPING. I lost my first game in a store championship last weekend due to this against the eventual winner who wouldn't let me barrel roll as I ended touching his ship(debateable but close) but in no way shape or form overlapping. All 13 other people in the store said it was not allowed and first game in a new store with a new group, I wasn't going to cause a stink.

Such a common misconception caused by people referring to 'bumping' all the time, which is in no way a game term, instead of correctly referring to overlapping.

Edit: for typos

You know, I believe I know the difference but I'm finding the example to be confusing.

You weren't allowed to BR because there wasn't going to be space available to fit or because you wanted to BR into a spot where he couldn't shoot you despite being in arc? The "debatable but close" part makes me think it was just a call on what would have been a tight fit; the only way a BR can save you from getting shot is by either getting you out of arc or out of range.

I will agree that the difference between touching and "Touching" can be a big misconception in the game.

The situation was my ship wanted to barrel roll out of arc of his ship, but the only place to go was between his ship and an asteroid. It was tight, and although I didn't overlap either the ship of asteroid, the only way to fit was to slide my base to touch the edge of either the asteroid or his ship. Everyone at the event declared you couldn't barrel roll if it meant you would TOUCH an obstacle or ship, when the rules only refer to OVERLAPPING.

I didn't realise until then so few people understood the difference

For me, the biggest one I see is people don't understand the difference between TOUCHING and OVERLAPPING. I lost my first game in a store championship last weekend due to this against the eventual winner who wouldn't let me barrel roll as I ended touching his ship(debateable but close) but in no way shape or form overlapping. All 13 other people in the store said it was not allowed and first game in a new store with a new group, I wasn't going to cause a stink.

Such a common misconception caused by people referring to 'bumping' all the time, which is in no way a game term, instead of correctly referring to overlapping.

Edit: for typos

You know, I believe I know the difference but I'm finding the example to be confusing.

You weren't allowed to BR because there wasn't going to be space available to fit or because you wanted to BR into a spot where he couldn't shoot you despite being in arc? The "debatable but close" part makes me think it was just a call on what would have been a tight fit; the only way a BR can save you from getting shot is by either getting you out of arc or out of range.

I will agree that the difference between touching and "Touching" can be a big misconception in the game.

The way I see it is as follows, please correct me if I'm wrong.

"Touching" another ship means the bases are in contact and the ships can therefore NOT shoot each other.

"Overlapping" another ship means that your ship would end it's maneuver on top of another ship.

The only way to be "Touching" another ship is if you "Overlap" it while performing your maneuver.

You cannot end your maneuver, boost, or barrel roll in a "Touching" position without "Overlapping" (of course, barrel rolls and boosts cannot be performed if you "overlap").

Either you "Overlap", or you don't, and if you don't "Overlap", you are not "Touching".

You cannot Barrel Roll your ship into a "Touching" position to avoid fire, like the green ship tries to do in the image.

No, this is not correct. There is no restriction or consequences in the rules for ships which are touching. For example, it's perfectly legal to deploy two ships side by side touching. If they both then 4 straight that is again a perfectly legal move. Both ships would get thier actions because despite finishing thier move touching bases, neither ship overlapped the other.

Similarly, let's say my high PS ship is chasing your low PS ship, and we're both flying perpendicular to the board edge. You take a short move and I pull a longer one and we end up overlapping. I reduce my move until I can fit, And end my move touching your base. Because we overlapped, we cannot target each other this turn. Next turn we both straight 3. Now because we both move the exact same same distance in the exact same direction, our final base positions will be exactly the same too, I.e they will be touching. This time however, I completed my move without overlapping your base. As such I get my action and can declare you as a target, despite the fact our bases are touching.

This difference applies in the same way to actions. Both barrel roll and boost state you may not execute the action if it would cause you to OVERLAP an obstacle or ship. Neither refers to touching at any point, and the rules for overlapping clearly explain that it occurs when your final position causes your base to end ON TOP of another base or obstacle. The rules for not being able to target a ship are also in the overlapping section of the rules. After you overlap a ship, you move back till you can fit, end touching and may not declare the ship you overlapped as a target. Nowhere in the shooting rules does it say you cannot target a ship you're touching, only a ship you overlapped in the activation phase.

So yes, you can boost/barrel roll to be touching a ship, and yes, you may declare that ship a target. You just can't overlap it.

Is that clear now? Look it up if you don't believe me!!

For the longest time I didn't realize that some missiles don't require you to spend the target lock to fire them, just to maintain one. I have finally *knock on wood* broken myself of the habit of dialing the wrong direction maneuver of my own ships that are facing me.

Done this.

I see people forgetting that you don't get the extra evade dice at range 3 against secondary weapons. I know I forgot that a bunch when I was new.

And this

For the longest time I didn't realize that some missiles don't require you to spend the target lock to fire them, just to maintain one. I have finally *knock on wood* broken myself of the habit of dialing the wrong direction maneuver of my own ships that are facing me.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of people make the same mistake as the TL with Proton Rockets. They thought they needed to spend the focus to fire the missile.

I've started to build a habit of turning the dial upside down when my ships are facing me, just to make certain that the maneuver on the dial is the one I want to make. I've sent myself into the weeds too many times.

and of course this

Forgetting effects caused by critical damage. Always put a crit marker on ships with face up damage cards (exception for direct hit)

Forgetting actions and forgetting that stress and overlaps cancels actions.

I never used them before but I will now, somehow I missed this in the book.

The way I see it is as follows, please correct me if I'm wrong.

"Touching" another ship means the bases are in contact and the ships can therefore NOT shoot each other.

"Overlapping" another ship means that your ship would end it's maneuver on top of another ship.

The only way to be "Touching" another ship is if you "Overlap" it while performing your maneuver.

You cannot end your maneuver, boost, or barrel roll in a "Touching" position without "Overlapping" (of course, barrel rolls and boosts cannot be performed if you "overlap").

Either you "Overlap", or you don't, and if you don't "Overlap", you are not "Touching".

You cannot Barrel Roll your ship into a "Touching" position to avoid fire, like the green ship tries to do in the image.

No, this is not correct. There is no restriction or consequences in the rules for ships which are touching. For example, it's perfectly legal to deploy two ships side by side touching. If they both then 4 straight that is again a perfectly legal move. Both ships would get thier actions because despite finishing thier move touching bases, neither ship overlapped the other.

Similarly, let's say my high PS ship is chasing your low PS ship, and we're both flying perpendicular to the board edge. You take a short move and I pull a longer one and we end up overlapping. I reduce my move until I can fit, And end my move touching your base. Because we overlapped, we cannot target each other this turn. Next turn we both straight 3. Now because we both move the exact same same distance in the exact same direction, our final base positions will be exactly the same too, I.e they will be touching. This time however, I completed my move without overlapping your base. As such I get my action and can declare you as a target, despite the fact our bases are touching.

This difference applies in the same way to actions. Both barrel roll and boost state you may not execute the action if it would cause you to OVERLAP an obstacle or ship. Neither refers to touching at any point, and the rules for overlapping clearly explain that it occurs when your final position causes your base to end ON TOP of another base or obstacle. The rules for not being able to target a ship are also in the overlapping section of the rules. After you overlap a ship, you move back till you can fit, end touching and may not declare the ship you overlapped as a target. Nowhere in the shooting rules does it say you cannot target a ship you're touching, only a ship you overlapped in the activation phase.

So yes, you can boost/barrel roll to be touching a ship, and yes, you may declare that ship a target. You just can't overlap it.

Is that clear now? Look it up if you don't believe me!!

I think you may have misunderstood me.

Let me redefine my terms:

Overlapping: When attempting a maneuver, boost or barrel roll, ships can sometime overlap other ships and obstacles. If your maneuver would "cause the final position of [your] base to physically overlap another ship’s base", move your ship back along the template until it no longer overlaps and "place the ship so that the bases of both ships are touching." (Blue text from rule book.)

"There is no restriction or consequences in the rules for ships which are touching."

There are many effects which reference the touching game state:

• Rulebook, p.17: Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching.
• Arvel Crynyd: You may declare an enemy ship inside your firing arc that you are touching as the target of your attack.
• Intimidation: While you are touching an enemy ship, reduce that ship's agility value by 1.

You cannot barrel roll a ship with Intimidation into a touching position with another ship to reduce it's agility by 1.

"Next turn we both straight 3. Now because we both move the exact same same distance in the exact same direction, our final base positions will be exactly the same too, I.e they will be touching in contact."

"Nowhere in the shooting rules does it say you cannot target a ship you're touching, only a ship you overlapped in the activation phase."

Rulebook, p.17: Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching.

"So yes, you can boost/barrel roll to be touching in contact a ship, and yes, you may declare that ship a target. You just can't overlap it."

This may seem tedious, but if you're in a rules discussion and trying to make a technical distinction between terms, I'm afraid tediousness is a necessary evil

I agree wholeheartedly. The term in contact as an alternative to touching certainly clears up my point. I'm glad we're in agreement.

Either way, finishing a barrel roll 'in contact' is perfectly allowable and still allows you to target the ship you are in contact with, which was my argument at the event, even though I was over ruled my the majority who misunderstood the overlapping rule and consequently the effects of ships being 'in contact'

I agree wholeheartedly. The term in contact as an alternative to touching certainly clears up my point. I'm glad we're in agreement.

Either way, finishing a barrel roll 'in contact' is perfectly allowable and still allows you to target the ship you are in contact with, which was my argument at the event, even though I was over ruled my the majority who misunderstood the overlapping rule and consequently the effects of ships being 'in contact'

And this is all why it is a great example of misconceptions in the game although have an initial example that was a little ambiguous doesn't help.

I kind of like the idea of using 'in contact (with)' instead of 'touching' when giving descriptions but it does require more characters and in today's lazy world that may not be a good thing. Just look at all of the abbreviations we already use on this forum.

It took me a long while to realize that bases are actually square. For some reason, their shape always looked that they were longer than they were wide. Knowing they are perfectly square has large ramifications to maneuvering.

It looks rectangular because your eyes are discounting the raised edges that hold the pilot insert onto the base.

I mention this because it's part of another huge misconception: the standard firing arc is not 90 degrees. It's actually closer to 88 degrees. This was discovered when bringing the game to vassal.

This is the one I see most often, along with the associated problem of people stubbornly retaining the "if you're in range to shoot me, I'm in range to shoot you" mindset of other gaming systems.

Lots of people don't get that range has to be measured from within your arc, and that it's totally possible for one ship to have arc and range to a target, but for the target to have arc and *not* have range for the counter-attack.

I've had to let this slide numerous times during competitive events and endured technically-illegal return fire (because I didn't want to sour my opponent by bringing in a judge, or because I didn't trust an inexperienced TO to make the right call). The worst example happened in a game where I would have lost if my opponent's final (illegal! beyond range 3!) shot had connected. Thankfully I evaded enough damage to preserve the win, but I was gritting my teeth.

I'm surprised Heavy Laser Cannon hasn't been mentioned yet

I've forgotten the amount of times I've had to explain that the defender doesn't get a range bonus at R3

Could someone point me in the direction of the rule for that? I'd like to be able to quickly pull it up once I start running the outrider, but I didn't see it when I checked the main rulebook's section on secondary weapons.

I'm surprised Heavy Laser Cannon hasn't been mentioned yet

I've forgotten the amount of times I've had to explain that the defender doesn't get a range bonus at R3

Could someone point me in the direction of the rule for that?

The only rule there is states that primary weapon attacks at range three grant the defender one extra defense die. The HLC is a secondary weapon.

I'm surprised Heavy Laser Cannon hasn't been mentioned yet

I've forgotten the amount of times I've had to explain that the defender doesn't get a range bonus at R3

Could someone point me in the direction of the rule for that? I'd like to be able to quickly pull it up once I start running the outrider, but I didn't see it when I checked the main rulebook's section on secondary weapons.

Yeah, rulebook, page 10, under "Ranged Combat bonuses" is pretty explicit that it only applies to PRIMARY WEAPONS. (emphasis theirs)

I'm surprised Heavy Laser Cannon hasn't been mentioned yet

I've forgotten the amount of times I've had to explain that the defender doesn't get a range bonus at R3

Could someone point me in the direction of the rule for that? I'd like to be able to quickly pull it up once I start running the outrider, but I didn't see it when I checked the main rulebook's section on secondary weapons.

Yeah, rulebook, page 10, under "Ranged Combat bonuses" is pretty explicit that it only applies to PRIMARY WEAPONS. (emphasis theirs)

Ah, that was the next place I was going to check.

Could someone point me in the direction of the rule for that?

Bottom of page 10 of the core rulebook.

Range Combat Bonuses

Depending on the range between the ships, the attacker or defender may roll additional dice during this attack (see “Roll Attack Dice” and “Roll Defense Dice” on pages 11–12). Range combat bonuses only occur when a ship is attacking with its primary weapon.

Since it says and bolds Primary Weapon then that means it only applies to those types of weapons.

The way I see it is as follows, please correct me if I'm wrong.

"Touching" another ship means the bases are in contact and the ships can therefore NOT shoot each other.

"Overlapping" another ship means that your ship would end it's maneuver on top of another ship.

The only way to be "Touching" another ship is if you "Overlap" it while performing your maneuver.

You cannot end your maneuver, boost, or barrel roll in a "Touching" position without "Overlapping" (of course, barrel rolls and boosts cannot be performed if you "overlap").

Either you "Overlap", or you don't, and if you don't "Overlap", you are not "Touching".

You cannot Barrel Roll your ship into a "Touching" position to avoid fire, like the green ship tries to do in the image.

No, this is not correct. There is no restriction or consequences in the rules for ships which are touching. For example, it's perfectly legal to deploy two ships side by side touching. If they both then 4 straight that is again a perfectly legal move. Both ships would get thier actions because despite finishing thier move touching bases, neither ship overlapped the other.

Similarly, let's say my high PS ship is chasing your low PS ship, and we're both flying perpendicular to the board edge. You take a short move and I pull a longer one and we end up overlapping. I reduce my move until I can fit, And end my move touching your base. Because we overlapped, we cannot target each other this turn. Next turn we both straight 3. Now because we both move the exact same same distance in the exact same direction, our final base positions will be exactly the same too, I.e they will be touching. This time however, I completed my move without overlapping your base. As such I get my action and can declare you as a target, despite the fact our bases are touching.

This difference applies in the same way to actions. Both barrel roll and boost state you may not execute the action if it would cause you to OVERLAP an obstacle or ship. Neither refers to touching at any point, and the rules for overlapping clearly explain that it occurs when your final position causes your base to end ON TOP of another base or obstacle. The rules for not being able to target a ship are also in the overlapping section of the rules. After you overlap a ship, you move back till you can fit, end touching and may not declare the ship you overlapped as a target. Nowhere in the shooting rules does it say you cannot target a ship you're touching, only a ship you overlapped in the activation phase.

So yes, you can boost/barrel roll to be touching a ship, and yes, you may declare that ship a target. You just can't overlap it.

Is that clear now? Look it up if you don't believe me!!

I think you may have misunderstood me.

Let me redefine my terms:

Overlapping: When attempting a maneuver, boost or barrel roll, ships can sometime overlap other ships and obstacles. If your maneuver would "cause the final position of [your] base to physically overlap another ship’s base", move your ship back along the template until it no longer overlaps and "place the ship so that the bases of both ships are touching." (Blue text from rule book.)

Touching: This the game state in which ships end up after one of them attempted a maneuver which would have caused it to overlap. Many game effects refer to this state explicitly. The only way for 2 ships to be in this state is if one attempted a maneuver that caused it to overlap another.

In contact: This is NOT a game state, and has no bearing on game play. Two ships can be in contact, without being considered as touching.

Now, a few corrections to your post...

"There is no restriction or consequences in the rules for ships which are touching."

There are many effects which reference the touching game state:

• Rulebook, p.17: Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching.
• Arvel Crynyd: You may declare an enemy ship inside your firing arc that you are touching as the target of your attack.
• Intimidation: While you are touching an enemy ship, reduce that ship's agility value by 1.

You cannot barrel roll a ship with Intimidation into a touching position with another ship to reduce it's agility by 1.

"Next turn we both straight 3. Now because we both move the exact same same distance in the exact same direction, our final base positions will be exactly the same too, I.e they will be touching in contact."

"Nowhere in the shooting rules does it say you cannot target a ship you're touching, only a ship you overlapped in the activation phase."

Rulebook, p.17: Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching.

"So yes, you can boost/barrel roll to be touching in contact a ship, and yes, you may declare that ship a target. You just can't overlap it."

This may seem tedious, but if you're in a rules discussion and trying to make a technical distinction between terms, I'm afraid tediousness is a necessary evil

What makes you think there is this distinction between "touching" and what you've called "in contact"? "Ships who's bases are touching" seems pretty clear cut to me: it's not just some "game state", it's a clear description of physical reality. Have they FAQed it or something?

The wording of assorted rulings in the FAQ relevant to this question has changed several times, and I don't even remember what they all have said at one time or another, but the upshot of most of them was that "touching" was a state that could ONLY be achieved by an overlap.

They REALLY need to add something to the FAQ that clarifies "touching" and "overlap" in a general sense instead of the piecemeal, ad hoc ruling by example that they have done thus far. It is not at all surprising that a new player, even if they have read the FAQ, could come to a different conclusion than a veteran who has read a FAQ that said one thing, then changed so that it sort of said the same thing in a different way, then was changed again so that it can be read different ways, and so on.

What makes you think there is this distinction between "touching" and what you've called "in contact"? "Ships who's bases are touching" seems pretty clear cut to me: it's not just some "game state", it's a clear description of physical reality. Have they FAQed it or something?

The wording of assorted rulings in the FAQ relevant to this question has changed several times, and I don't even remember what they all have said at one time or another, but the upshot of most of them was that "touching" was a state that could ONLY be achieved by an overlap.

They REALLY need to add something to the FAQ that clarifies "touching" and "overlap" in a general sense instead of the piecemeal, ad hoc ruling by example that they have done thus far. It is not at all surprising that a new player, even if they have read the FAQ, could come to a different conclusion than a veteran who has read a FAQ that said one thing, then changed so that it sort of said the same thing in a different way, then was changed again so that it can be read different ways, and so on.

This does sound confusing! I mean, "bases are touching" is so clear, if they've confused that then eep.

Is also very clear, ships can have their bases in physical contact and not be considered "touching", according to the FAQ.

But that quote is not a statement of general principle it is in response to a specific situation, but establishes a precedent. It leaves open the question "What about OTHER situations that result in similar conditions?"

What makes you think there is this distinction between "touching" and what you've called "in contact"? "Ships who's bases are touching" seems pretty clear cut to me: it's not just some "game state", it's a clear description of physical reality. Have they FAQed it or something?

The wording of assorted rulings in the FAQ relevant to this question has changed several times, and I don't even remember what they all have said at one time or another, but the upshot of most of them was that "touching" was a state that could ONLY be achieved by an overlap.

They REALLY need to add something to the FAQ that clarifies "touching" and "overlap" in a general sense instead of the piecemeal, ad hoc ruling by example that they have done thus far. It is not at all surprising that a new player, even if they have read the FAQ, could come to a different conclusion than a veteran who has read a FAQ that said one thing, then changed so that it sort of said the same thing in a different way, then was changed again so that it can be read different ways, and so on.

For me at least there's definitive proof of what you've mentioned above in the FAQ, "touching" is a game state only entered after overlapping - see current FAQ entry below...

Overlapping Inline Ships

Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and

facing the same direction. If both ships are the same base size and execute

the same unobstructed straight [ ^] maneuver during the next round, the ships

do not overlap each other and are not considered touching, even though they

remain physically adjacent.

The above current FAQ entry confirms that after both ships move together and are still physically touching, that they are no longer touching in a game sense. This to me confirms the fact that you cannot ever physically touch anything without overlapping, if you touch another base during movement, you're overlapping and enter a "Touched" state. This is arguably true on an atomic level anyway! There is no way you can prove that a base is merely touching another object and not overlapping even in the slightest sense, you'd have to get some extremely sensitive measuring equipment to ensure that neither of the bases moved whatsoever as the bases contacted!

Overlapping Inline Ships

Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and

facing the same direction. If both ships are the same base size and execute

the same unobstructed straight [ ^] maneuver during the next round, the ships

do not overlap each other and are not considered touching, even though they

remain physically adjacent.

Yep, that'd be the relevant FAQ right there!

For the longest time I didn't realize that some missiles don't require you to spend the target lock to fire them, just to maintain one. I have finally *knock on wood* broken myself of the habit of dialing the wrong direction maneuver of my own ships that are facing me.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of people make the same mistake as the TL with Proton Rockets. They thought they needed to spend the focus to fire the missile.

I've started to build a habit of turning the dial upside down when my ships are facing me, just to make certain that the maneuver on the dial is the one I want to make. I've sent myself into the weeds too many times.

Guess who just had to look this up to realize PRockets don't cost the Focus token to use...

This guy.

For those who don't know, here's a list of ones I just discovered don't cost their token to use:

Homing Missiles

Ion Pulse Missiles

PRockets

The more you know...

For me at least there's definitive proof of what you've mentioned above in the FAQ, "touching" is a game state only entered after overlapping - see current FAQ entry below...

Overlapping Inline Ships

Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and

facing the same direction. If both ships are the same base size and execute

the same unobstructed straight [ ^] maneuver during the next round, the ships

do not overlap each other and are not considered touching, even though they

remain physically adjacent.

The above current FAQ entry confirms that after both ships move together and are still physically touching, that they are no longer touching in a game sense. This to me confirms the fact that you cannot ever physically touch anything without overlapping, if you touch another base during movement, you're overlapping and enter a "Touched" state. This is arguably true on an atomic level anyway! There is no way you can prove that a base is merely touching another object and not overlapping even in the slightest sense, you'd have to get some extremely sensitive measuring equipment to ensure that neither of the bases moved whatsoever as the bases contacted!

I can see why you would infer that, but we don't really know that they intended to set that precedent, rather than just make that one specific case. We need their clarification really. It's not impossible for ships to physically touch without overlapping, not at all - ships set up next to the edge (or a ships width from it, etc) will be aligned with each other and could slide in place next to each other without overlapping.

I put the question about barrel rolling into a touching position, among others, to FFG and got this reply:

Hello Dave,

In response to your rules question:

If I barrel roll and end up not overlapped with an enemy ship, but touching it exactly, am I still prohibited from declaring it a target, and it the same to me?

If ships are set up so their bases are touching, either parallel or one behind the other, and each makes the same move, their bases will still be touching. Does this prevent either, or both, of the ships from using an action?

I guess the base question in all this is - is touching considered as overlapping, whether it occurs from an actual overlap and move backwards or just occurs naturally?

I am a new player and there is a current discussion on this in the forum's Misconceptions thread, which I found quite confusing. Thanks!

Dave

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From the technical definition of “touching,” ships are only touching if they had overlapped a ship after executing a maneuver. Therefore a ship cannot barrel roll, boost, or decloak into a position that it is touching since you cannot overlap another ship with those game effects.

Since you are new player, I would recommend that you read the FAQ. It also explains the idea of “overlapping inline ships” which is the second case you brought up.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks
Associate Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

This seems pretty clear to me that any touch, other than the one exception for Inline Ships given in the FAQ, is considered an overlap, with all the effects that carries with it.