After blunders at two Store Championships, I'm going back to the drawing board. I'm tempted to run my tournament-winning 6 TIE swarm at the next SC, but I'm feeling like larger may serve me better. 7 or even 8 may be the way.

The issue is, I have no real experience with tight formation flying. My 6 TIE swarm consisted of Black Squadron Pilots spamming Predator and I ran them in quite a loose formation. A 7 TIE Howl-swarm or an 8 Academies+Obsidians swarm could really benefit from a tight formation. Thing is, I can't make a pinwheel work to save my life. I find it very frustrating and it seems like others have no issue at all making it work and that makes it even more frustrating. I gave up on the pinwheel last summer and adopted the Predator spam swarm because it could be flown loosely. Now that I'm trying to come back to the pinwheel, I've found nothing's changed. It either sucks and doesn't work as advertised or I just don't know what I'm doing (and as much as it pains me to say, I suspect the latter).

I tried running a few maneuvers last night on my table and again, I had little luck avoiding bumps. I move my ships very accurately and have been setting up exactly as described here:

http://teamcovenant.com/klutz/2014/04/29/understanding-the-pinwheel-formation/

I'm thinking now that I don't understand the fundamentals of how to run it. Last night it seemed like I could hard turn all day long, but as soon as I started doing banks, everything started to break down and bump. I was always under the impression that banks were kosher and a pinwheel could be maintained flying banks, but I'm thinking now that's not the case. Is the main premise hard turn as much as you like, get one bank in, and then you're finished as far as the pinwheel is concerned? My problem may be I'm trying to make the formation do something it just can't do.

Thoughts?

I assume your putting them too close together in the set up phase

Read these:

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-1.html

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/tie-swarm-movement-and-maneuvering-part.html

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-3.html?

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/110115-earning-your-wings-a-guide-for-understanding-movment/

Compared to your regular setup - add half a ship base between each of your ships during deployment.

Then see if it changes anything.

Compared to your regular setup - add half a ship base between each of your ships during deployment.

Then see if it changes anything.

With half a base between ships even the old box formation banks.

Due to slight manual and visual errors, you have to give it a little more space on the real tabletop than those articles suggest.

rule of thumb #1: don't put a ship in the space behind the back nubs or in front of the fore nubs of any ship (you can do a little incursion but it has to be very modest)

rule of thumb #2: if you put a ship laterally besides another ship, it needs to be offset half a base forward or backward AT LEAST, and be separated by a distance roughly half a template's width (can be a little less, experiment).

I have to ask.....if you aren't running Howlrunner, why on earth would you want to fly in formation? Tie Fighters are experts at...swarming. Real Tie Swarms don't fly in formation. They actually swarm over your opponent. You should try it out. It takes some getting used to not bumping into each other, but you get the hang of it pretty quick. I might suggest at least one Academy Pilot to be used just for bumping purposes. You can stick it where you think the enemy is going to go, and then have the rest of the Tie Fighters flanking that guy out of firing arc. Works amazingly well.

What's a 'Real Tie Swarm'?

One of the main advantages of pinwheeling, Howlrunner or no, and assuming you can get it to work (I'll try again this evening with Mu0n's advice in mind), is a tighter 'kill box', lots of shots concentrated on a particular spot. Also, depending on how asteroids shake down, a tighter, smaller group can navigate easier.

Trust me, I know there are pluses to running a loose formation, I've had tournament wins with a BSP Predator spam list that flew fairly irregularly. The point here is, figure out if pinwheeling's a thing or if I'm just a poor formation flier.

I recommend throwing all your asteroids down on your kitchen table. Then put yous TIEs in formation and then fly around the table. Try to plan to go somewhere difficult in two or three turns. Reading and watching videos is great, but there in no substitute for actual practice yourself.

One thing I have found with the TIE swarm. While it is always better to dodge the asteroids, if you are in range with Howelrunner, losing the action of one or two ships so your whole formation may make an attack run against a prime target is usually worth it.

Hey, I'm the guy who wrote that article on TeamCovenant about the pinwheel formation. I actually flew Chewie + 4 bandits in a tourney a couple weeks ago and had the bandits in a pinwheel formation (and it helped get me those sweet acrylic focus tokens!). Here's how I normally go about setting it up:

Now, this is a very tight formation, and can result in a lot of bumping if you're not careful. However, it will allow you to squeeze through asteroids that a looser box formation couldn't fit through. One thing I like a lot is that the pinwheel formation takes up the same "width" even after banking (a standard box formation will be a lot wider after banking).

If you keep having trouble with bumping, simply offset the blue and orange ships horizontally slightly, so their edge no longer line up. Do the same for the green and purple ships, offsetting them vertically. This should give you more room between your ships, as you're getting close to a box formation...

I just fly in a checkerboard formation with my Zs. It's been working fine for me so far.

What's a 'Real Tie Swarm'?

One of the main advantages of pinwheeling, Howlrunner or no, and assuming you can get it to work (I'll try again this evening with Mu0n's advice in mind), is a tighter 'kill box', lots of shots concentrated on a particular spot. Also, depending on how asteroids shake down, a tighter, smaller group can navigate easier.

Trust me, I know there are pluses to running a loose formation, I've had tournament wins with a BSP Predator spam list that flew fairly irregularly. The point here is, figure out if pinwheeling's a thing or if I'm just a poor formation flier.

I don't think formation flying is the way to go with Tie Fighters. I see them as arc dodgers. They aren't as great as PTL Soontir Fel, but they aren't bad, either. Beside the initial approach, I think facing your enemy one formation vs. another is a bad idea. Tie Fighters tend to die when it's an even fight.

I have to respectfully disagree.

A true arc dodger needs boost, in my opinion.

And considering Howlrunner's force multiplier and/or the inevitable numbers advantage, it'll rarely be an even fight. Not to say you can be lazy with your flying, but TIEs in formation has been a thing since day one, and it continues to be, undeniably. I haven't seen an Assault Missile in ages.

We can disagree. That's fine.

I will say that I've been dodging arcs since before there was a boost.

Also, I've got 2 Assault Missiles in the list I've been running lately.

In this meta play 8. Go big or go home.

I don't think formation flying is the way to go with Tie Fighters. I see them as arc dodgers. They aren't as great as PTL Soontir Fel, but they aren't bad, either. Beside the initial approach, I think facing your enemy one formation vs. another is a bad idea. Tie Fighters tend to die when it's an even fight.

I'll have to disagree as well.

Of course, the Barrel Roll and their dial allows them to get out of arcs sometimes, but if your opponent lines up to joust with your TIE swarm? Embrace it.

In a straight joust, the only thing that stands a chance vs a TIE swarm is a 4 B-Wing list, or a Biggs + B-Wings list. And each round Howlrunner survives increases the chance the TIE swarm will come out ahead (which is why a 6 or 7 TIE swarm often spends many points trying to squeeze an extra round or 2 out of Howlrunner).

TIE swarms suffer when they go up against high-agility arc dodgers, since they're often unable to get 4+ arcs on the ship at once, and their 2 dice attacks have a hard time punching through 3+ agility with focus and/or evade. The prevalence of Phantoms in the current meta has pushed TIE swarms out.

I don't think formation flying is the way to go with Tie Fighters. I see them as arc dodgers. They aren't as great as PTL Soontir Fel, but they aren't bad, either. Beside the initial approach, I think facing your enemy one formation vs. another is a bad idea. Tie Fighters tend to die when it's an even fight.

TIE swarms suffer when they go up against high-agility arc dodgers, since they're often unable to get 4+ arcs on the ship at once, and their 2 dice attacks have a hard time punching through 3+ agility with focus and/or evade. The prevalence of Phantoms in the current meta has pushed TIE swarms out.

Which is why if you insist on playing it, you need to play 8. Formation flying is a weakness for phantoms to exploit. Plus they don't even generally have to shoot Howl at range 3 so she'll usually die fast anyway. All you need are bodies to block with, and the freedom to fly however you want. Also works better at getting blocks on dash than 7 tie Howl. Against any of the top builds now, you're only hope is to block and pounce. Even against the falcon that you're supposed to be good against, good fat hans will boost out of half of your initial volley if you're in one big brick. Gotta block.

I don't see how you can call it a Swarm when you don't even swarm.

I've never had Howlrunner live past the third round of shooting. She usually dies by the end of the first.

Plus, I just find it boring to fly in formation.

In any case, the discussion at hand was how to fly a swarm in formation...

Of course, you need to adapt your play style depending on your opponent's list - which can mean breaking up the swarm. But saying formation flying doesn't have it's advantages is ludicrous.

For a reasonably tight, difficult to screw up pinwheel just align each ship so that it is at the midpoint of the ship it is next to. For example, if it is to the left of the lead ship, make sure its front end is at the midpoint of the lead. Then, place a ship "behind" the leader, with its leftmost side at the midpoint of the lead ship. Leave a (very) small amount of slack, about the length of the nubs.

In a 4 or more ship pinwheel, the last/rear ship(s) will need to barrel roll into place.

Many thanks to Mu0n and Klutz, I really appreciate your ideas here. I'm entering my hobby room tonight a pinwheel noob and exiting a pro, haha. You guys are right, I think I've got things wound just a bit too tight. A little slack'll help.

heychadwick and bobbywhiskey, some good thoughts. I'm not quite there with you, but differing views make you think, so I'm appreciative for the input. I'm definitely a believer in being adaptable. You might be locked into a list for a tournament, but you don't and/or necessarily have to fly it the same way every game.

Cheers fellas.

To practice getting the spacing right you could set up the pinwheel, bank it, adjust the spacing so that the ships aren't bumping, then bank them all backwards to undo the original move and see how the formation is different than what you set up.

Hope that made sense. Not the easiest concept to describe.

6 Blacks with Predator would be 102 points... btw ...

I guess one of them got Draw their Fire?

You got it, 5 Blacks with Predator, 1 with DTF to soak crits.

The other variant I liked running was Mithel with Predator, 4 Blacks with Predator, 1 Academy.

Sir, the odds of successfully surviving a joust with a tie brick are approximately 3,720 to 1! In the early days of the tie swarm, they were usually flown in bricks, and they are quite powerful that way. Both "brick flying" and asymmetric flying have their advantages, but don't underestimate the power of the tie brick.

I would do everything I could to avoid a joust with 6 or more ties, especially if howl is one of them.