There is another explanation for the massive crew complement discrepancies....

Unionised labour!!!

The Empire, an adherent of raw utilitarian principles, is a fair and just employer with members of the Imperial Navy only being required to work a four hour shift each day. Their spare time can be spent reflecting on the Emperors magnificence and benevolence.

Compared to the fanatical "terrorists" who struggle to draw numbers to support their misguided cause and hence are slave drivers when it comes to work place practices. Have you seen their WH&S policy and their medical benefits program? Shocking!

There is another explanation for the massive crew complement discrepancies....

Unionised labour!!!

The Empire, an adherent of raw utilitarian principles, is a fair and just employer with members of the Imperial Navy only being required to work a four hour shift each day. Their spare time can be spent reflecting of the Emperors magnificence and benevolence.

Compared to the fanatical "terrorists" who struggle to draw numbers to support their misguided cause and hence are slave drivers when it comes to work place practices. Have you seen their WH&S policy and their medical benefits program? Shocking!

Stormtroopers were elite, until they got ewok'ed. They kicked arse on the tantaive IV and Hoth

Yeah, they are suppose to be the elite shock troopers of the Imperial war machine, but the OT made them look like a bunch of bumbling idiots. The way I explain it to myself is there are tiers of Stormtroopers, some being more elite than others. The one's that took the Tantive and raiding Hoth being the more elite variety. However, my theory kind of fails in ROTJ when they get overwhelmed by Ewoks and a relatively small Rebel force. I guess those weren't very elite Stormtroopers, but they were tasked with guarding the shield to a very important Imperial weapon, in fact the most important and secretive thing they had. Why wouldn't you have your most elite and battle-hardened troops guarding that?

But then again the good guys were suppose to win.

Then there are these guys: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army_trooper

You see a couple of them on Endor in the shield generator building and piloting an AT-ST. The seem like they are more of the Empires garrison troopers and lighter infantry fighting force. They are more of the standard grunt. The navy has an equivalent for duty on board ships and stations.

You see a couple of them on Endor in the shield generator building and piloting an AT-ST. The seem like they are more of the Empires garrison troopers and lighter infantry fighting force. They are more of the standard grunt. The navy has an equivalent for duty on board ships and stations.

Right after the Battle of Endor, somewhere in the Imperial bureaucracy, there's a guy going:

"Oh, it said 'crack' troops?? I could have sworn the requisition was for 'hack' troops!"

I guess those weren't very elite Stormtroopers,.... Why wouldn't you have your most elite and battle-hardened troops guarding that?

Emperor: "An entire legion of my best troops awaits them."

Hmmm....

There is another explanation for the massive crew complement discrepancies....

Unionised labour!!!

The Empire, an adherent of raw utilitarian principles, is a fair and just employer with members of the Imperial Navy only being required to work a four hour shift each day. Their spare time can be spent reflecting of the Emperors magnificence and benevolence.

On no ship ever would you only do a 4 hour shift a day. You would need 6 people for each position. And then you would have 5 VERY bored sailors. We have a term for such groups in the Navy,"Major international political incident"

When a 3 man "cruising Watch" rotation you would achieve 4 on 8 off, which is the most you can expect off at sea, unless your a dirty day hand with all-nighters

How are crews depicted in Star Trek? IIRC they have one main crew that does 70% of the stuff in a day, then the minimal night watch crew that basically makes sure the ship doesn't explode or something while everyone is asleep. I doubt any major decisions are made by the night watch and the ship is in minimal operational status. This is what I gathered from the various TV series.

How are crews depicted in Star Trek?

You know, I used to be a trekkie, back when is was out. I even liked ST:Enterprise.

But Star Wars is Star Wars, and I don't think that we're bound by the same constrictions as are necessitated by a TV show with the need to profile a specific cast of characters.

How are crews depicted in Star Trek?

Most ST doesn't really get into the day to day operations of the ship. There were a few Next Gen episodes though that talked about 3 and 4 shift rotations for the crew and on a few occasions we see various officers in command of the bridge for a shift.

The impression I got was that the Captain doesn't work a particular shift but rather attends to assorted "meta" duties and takes direct command whenever something happens, then there are a number of command rank officers who are given the job of commanding a specific shift. They basically have to stay on the bridge during their shift and, as you say, keep the ship from blowing up and call the Captain if anything bad happens. There were definite implications that there was a "night shift" which was considered less important. Why or how that makes any sense on a space ship is up for speculation.

How are crews depicted in Star Trek?

The impression I got was that the Captain doesn't work a particular shift but rather attends to assorted "meta" duties and takes direct command whenever something happens, then there are a number of command rank officers who are given the job of commanding a specific shift. They basically have to stay on the bridge during their shift and, as you say, keep the ship from blowing up and call the Captain if anything bad happens. There were definite implications that there was a "night shift" which was considered less important. Why or how that makes any sense on a space ship is up for speculation.

The other difference is that the Officers of the Watch are usually quite junior. Its their first qualification after completing their training so are usually Sub Lieutenants or junior Lieutenants. The more senior officers on board are still answerable to them when they have the ship as they are the COs rep.

That's not far off how it works in today's Navies.

officer Of the Watch/deck

Incidentally, what would be the organization of the officers? I have always gotten the impression of Captain, XO and then assorted department heads who are kind of informally more or less important depending on the size and importance of their departments. Is that accurate or would there be more or a hierarchy?

Reading through this thread, I actually get the impression that the 37,000 crew figure for a SD is about right, but the original question is why the discrepancy between the ISD and the Mon Cal cruisers of similar size. So perhaps what we should be discussion is why the Rebel ships have such a small crew?

Mikael, get to work and break down the crew stats of a Mon Cal hip for us. Be quick about it.

Accounting for terrorist rebels is beneath me.

But the ISD - since you're talking about the departments, I have the departments divided up as below, though I know that RW-navies are a little different.

• Starfighters (TIEs)
• Shuttles (Lambdas and landing craft)
• Stormtrooper Legion
• Deck Department
• Operations Department
• Administration

Each of these departments is, again, divided up into divisions (or regiments/squadrons, in the case of the stormtroopers/TIEs/shuttles), which are then divided up into sections, units, and elements. While I don't yet have an accounting of all the roles, I do have these divisions/sections/etc being fleshed out.

But I am an Imperial fanboy.

Well we can't have that

Nah its alright man, just didn't want anyone trying to claim stormtroopers didn't need MPs, all soldiers get rowdy at times, especially when cooped up on a ship.

That is what 'spit and polish' and 'b*ll' exist for. As former military DS (albeit briefly) you keep soldiers , particularly young and raw recruit ones very busy by giving them endless amounts of pointless stuff to do.

B*llsh*t Baffles Brains is the philosophy. Having guys press razor creases into trousers, polish toecaps to mirror shines, paint rocks white, etc etc.... it keeps them busy and raging againt the DS and not getting angry with each other and brawling or getting drunk or getting bored and doing something crazy.

I've been on both sides of this system.

MPs as support service *really* are more there for movement and lines of communication control. Garrisoned troops really have daily discipline looked after by 'regimental provosts' and NCO 'duty officers'. Or at least that how it used to work in the UK.

If the RMP were called in you've done something *really* bad, the sort of stuff you're going to a correctional facility for (those are not fun either...)

Well motivated, trained, elite and volunteer troops *generally* dont require that level of supervision.

An example would be UK special forces. They are given a shocking amount of leniency as to what they wear, how they have their hair, kit they take with them etc but are expected to be at lectures, briefings, parades on time and in order without being shepherded about. They are expected not to draw attention to themselves, its self regulating as anyone who cant do this is returned to a normal infantry or airborne unit... its the ultimate humilitation to be returned so people dont much about.

With stormtroopers you're looking at a mix of clone and biological fanatically loyal elite troops. I think the *only* real world comparison would be 'hitler youth'. I dont think they would have that many internal discipline problems... too busy sneering at the 'lesser units' and training hard.

Problem is we see in the OT and EU stromtroopers being everything from 'elite special forces proffesionals' to 'clueless recruits' and 'borderline dissenters' (davin felth?)

Lucas never *really* showed us what the guys behind the masks were like in the OT, other than incredibly gullible.

Couple episodes of Rebels have shown us Storm Trooper training. The _really_ good ones are tested for force ability...

I kind of hope the Stormtroopers in the new movies don't seem like incompetent cannon-fodder.

I stopped watching Rebels after a few episodes because the STs were laughably dumb even for a cartoon.

Hope I'm not re-hashing old news here, but - I'm reading Zahn's Thrawn trilogy for the first time, and the figure of 37,000 we've been dealing with seems to refer exclusively to the crew of an ISD:

"...'control of the Chimaera's thirty-seven thousand crewers... And if you intend for us to arrive with any support craft, that figure of thirty-seven thousand will increase rather steeply'" (Thrawn to C'baoth, "The Last Command," page 201).

Hope I'm not re-hashing old news here, but - I'm reading Zahn's Thrawn trilogy for the first time, and the figure of 37,000 we've been dealing with seems to refer exclusively to the crew of an ISD:

"...'control of the Chimaera's thirty-seven thousand crewers... And if you intend for us to arrive with any support craft, that figure of thirty-seven thousand will increase rather steeply'" (Thrawn to C'baoth, "The Last Command," page 201).

Yes, and we're talking about an ISD, correct? Zahn got that number from the roleplaying books by West End Games.

Ah, okay- thought I might've stumbled on to something useful...

A couple pages on, Thrawn requests a "caretaker" crew of 500 "for the next six hours" to relieve the crew C'baoth had just taken control of...

I would still say that the number stated by West End Games was high and that little thought was put into it beyond 'let's think of a really big intimidating number'. It's a daunting project to find jobs for all those individuals and I wish you luck with it. Would be really interesting to see the results.

So, oddly enough, I can contribute to this thread based on the actual miniatures game. I purchased some 1/300 scale figures (who were actually closer to 1/250). Each has about 1/8" square footprint. You can stand up 100 of them in a 2" x 2" area (roughly equivalent to 45' x 45'), giving them a little room to mill about. (Picture for scale: http://instagram.com/p/mgevKDiVUX/?modal=true )

Now, as we all know from the incessant Star Destroyer miniature debates, an ISD would be about 18' in scale. Assuming only one deck, this gives us a conservative 54' square to place our little ~1/270 dudes. Each one of those square feet has the potential to fit 3600 tiny guys.

So basically, if you packed 36,000 guys in tight, they would fill 19% of one empty, largest possible size deck. Assuming that the total habitable square footage is only 150% of what we'll call the main deck (80' in our 1/270 scale), and that everything else is machinery, bulkheads, weapons, food, fuel, more food, water, and more food, each one of our figures with an 1/8" footprint would have a 1/2" x 1/2" area to himself.

So, oddly enough, I can contribute to this thread based on the actual miniatures game.

I'm not sure I follow the consequence of your calculations. Can you provide a summary finding?

So, oddly enough, I can contribute to this thread based on the actual miniatures game.

I'm not sure I follow the consequence of your calculations. Can you provide a summary finding?

So, oddly enough, I can contribute to this thread based on the actual miniatures game.

I'm not sure I follow the consequence of your calculations. Can you provide a summary finding?

Tl;dr Room to spare!

Yes, that's what I was thinking. ;-)

Rather than trying to compare how many square inches a miniature occupies and all, it might be more profitable to try and find out how much space it is calculated that a real military ship needs per crew member.