I have been playing X-Wing since wave 2 back when swarms were the big boys on the block. Up through wave 4 lower pilot skill was very common and was mostly the norm. The Han Shoots First lists were about the only high pilot skill lists that saw much success. Many rebel lists capped at skill 5 due to Biggs being a linchpin. I flew many variations of the swarm and came to realize that low pilot skill had in my opinion two advantages that were many times equal too or better then moving last and shooting first for high skill ships.

Blocking is huge, HUGE! PS 1 ships are kings at this obiously and the empire gets the best two , the tie fighter and the shuttle. The tie has a great dial and can be swarmed cheaply to block many lanes. The Best blocker IMO is the shuttle. With its huge base and ability to 0 move it can wreck your opponents moves at times for successive turns. I could not possibly remember how many times I have seen an undamaged ship get blocked and that causes its death. Soontir is the perfect example of a ship that dies the second it gets blocked.

The other factor that I really appreciate is shooting last gives a nice advantage on defense. Focus is very much the best all 'round choice for actions, when in doubt focus. As a mostly imperial player focus is very good for three agility ships on defense. I like the freedom to see what damage my opponent is going to deal and getting to decide when to spend that focus. When I shoot first I seem to always use my focus and so do my opponents leaving defense up to the dice. To me this makes it more of a chess game with my opponent.

I know that the Phantom scared the crap out of people when it was spoiled and it has caused a huge shift in PS bids but I still find myself finding success with running one higher skill pilot flanked with scrubs or a total scrub squad. I play a guy very regularly and he loves to fly ace squads so I have had tons of practice against high PS squads. It just seems lately that anyone from PS 6+ is loaded out with VI on these forums. I think there are so many good EPT's now that I find that a very precious slot to be used for a PS bid that doesn't always make sense. Anyone else out there have a fondness for scrubs?

the bid is essential if you plan to take a PS 9 as your dedicated phantom or hyper mobility check

If you hit PS 10 with Veteran Instinct on PS 8, you're basically only losing out to V.I Chiraneau in this meta and the bid becomes less important.

Initiative can also be essential in mirror matches depending on your preferred style of play. Initiative gets the chance to block same PS pilots, lack thereof gets the chance to arc-dodge if packing a post-maneuver movement.

I never really worried about initiative that much until today when i lost out by 1 point and my corran horn, etahn, knave 'e wing chain' with swarm tactics lost initiative to howlrunner, mini swarm and trellix (with swarm tactics on howl helping trellix be a higher PS).

These days i either go for really low and cheap or high and elite as i've wasted so many points int he past with mid range PS ships that may as well be PS1 when they are up against a small elite force.

I dont know what possessed me to do it but i had one game with VI on my green squadron a wings, total waste of time as i didnt come up against anyting less than ps6 (or swarmed ps 6) in any of my games. Points that could have been better spent on lower ps pilots with better modifications.

I never really worried about initiative until Phantoms came out. In my local group, it wasn't a big deal. You had the people who flew chumps, and the people who flew named pilots. Skill was what it was, and it varied widely between the lists. Most often, it made no difference because pilots on opposite teams had different skills.

Now, with phantoms roaming everywhere, I still consider it once in a while.

PS bidding means nothing unless you can get to 9+ PS to not have to deal with the obnoxious Phantom shenanigans.

Mid PS bids are pointless. Another thing the super Phantom strangled out of the game.

PS bidding means nothing unless you can get to 9+ PS to not have to deal with the obnoxious Phantom shenanigans.

Mid PS bids are pointless. Another thing the super Phantom strangled out of the game.

Don't start down this route of hyperbolic rage. That phantom changed things, but by and large those changes gave us more options.

Mid PS bids were always pointless. In the early days it was better to bring swarms of low PS ships than to waste points on elite pilots. Predator helped change that, helping reward mid or higher pilots, and the Phantom continued the process. These are good things. Swarms still work, if you have fun with that, and the PS bid can be important--or not--based on the type of list you fly. That's variety and variety is a good thing.

Was at a tournament Sunday and some people were coming in at 96, 97 pts

its a tough decision do i want to shoot first or shoot more!!!

I guess I would rather have more shots then earlier shots. Unless a pilot has a specific ability I want then I usually default to the lowest PS version of the ship I want to fly.

I think it's a really strong credit to the game that both schools of thought -- high PS vs. low PS -- are valid. There are times high PS is amazing, and there are ships I can't imagine flying, or at least flying in the same way, without it, and without the ability to make decisions in response to your opponent's placement (PTL Interceptors, for instance, A-Wings, that sort of thing). There are times low PS is awesome, though, and that conservation of actions if gets you by moving first and never being blocked.

That both methods work, and that both strategies are valid depending on the list, is one of my favorite things about this whole game.

I don't think it's necessarily important, unless it prevents specific strategies on a squadrons part from going off. Whisper Squadrons or pilots trying to "stress trap" Phantoms are the only ones that really lean on winning the PS bid (maybe mirror matches). The thing is, you can still have an ace and get by without it. The biggest change is that you will not be able to react as well, like Critias pointed out, and you're tokens will be defensive/offensive as opposed to offensive/defensive. That's not necessarily a bad thing since you don't have to deal with the temptation on a roll to go all out and find yourself naked on the return.

Even mid PS pilots have their place since they normally have some fairly useful abilities which can overcome their mediocre skill and pricing. Jek Porkins, Turr Phenir, Jake Farrell, Gemmer Sojan, Hobbie, Biggs, Dutch, Dark Curse, and Chewie are a few that come to mind.

The phantom changed it from being a matter of doing actions last and shooting first to a matter of shooting first with 4-5 attack dice and going from 2 to 4 agility before the other gets a shot off. That's a big change.

And as i've said in other threads. If the firepower was a baseline of '3' i doubt anyone would be that bothered but 4 is the same as a capital ships turbolasers!

Obvioulsy FFG cant retro downgrade the phantoms guns, the games evolution is a ratchet. Removing or changing published things annoys more people than it appeases, there only solution is to let every one take an upgrade that neuters the overpowered (if we say for sake of arguement it *is* overpowered) ship... but in turn that damages variety as everyone now has to fill the modificatin slot with the 'fix'. Unless you have a fix that gives you another mod slot and then it gets silly as you have about eight cards next to your pilot card on your board edge (i know running chardan refit a wing test pilots i already have far too many cards jostling for position next to the pilot card!)

I don't really bother with initiative bid when designing a team; if the team I want to run cost 100 pts, I won't try to cut some things so it can cost 98 or 97 to garantee me an initiative that I might not need to begin with.

But, I now take PS much more into consideration than before. When going against Dash, I will feel much more confident if I have at least one ship moving after him; when going against a Phantom, I will like to have a ship at the same PS, I never felt the need to go over PS9: if I move first then I'll shoot first, it means that I know the Phantom will do his best to avoid my PS9 line of sight, if I go second I might be able to dodge his shot while still having one against him.

It doesn't mean that I won,t fly low PS only builds anymore, but PS is definetly more important than before and that's a good thing.

Well the only reason i take green squadrons over prototypes is for PTL use...

Given everyone else either takes academies with low PS or ramps up to the top with VI on PS 8 pilots ... well anything in between is wasted really.

I wonder if i should stop considering 'PTL' as practically bolted on to any A wing or Tie Int i take. I just feel its such a powerful force multipier and triples the effectiveness of either craft.

Perhaps i should try a few PS1 a wings....

If you don't have PS10 to move after Whisper, you will never land enough shots on her to destroy her.

If you don't have a strong init bid with your VI Whisper, PS9 might be able to move after her and land enough shots on her.

PS bid is more important than ever, unfortunately it only revolves around PS9. In wave3, you had the ps escalation wars, which was both fun and exciting to read, and didn't give you such a massive disadvantage/advantage if you didn't read it right (or didn't care).

Was at a tournament Sunday and some people were coming in at 96, 97 pts

That's nothing there is a now famous dual phantom list that clocks at 87 pts.

It depends on numbers, with a three autoceptor list you want to move as late as possible for arc dodging and to shoot first as a slow game works against you.

If you've got five or more ships going first matters less if you hit harder.

I mix it up taking one high PS ship and a mini swarm, swarm allows you to block keeping things where you want them ensuring your big gun gets a shot every turn.

I don't really bother with initiative bid when designing a team; if the team I want to run cost 100 pts, I won't try to cut some things so it can cost 98 or 97 to garantee me an initiative that I might not need to begin with.

But, I now take PS much more into consideration than before. When going against Dash, I will feel much more confident if I have at least one ship moving after him; when going against a Phantom, I will like to have a ship at the same PS, I never felt the need to go over PS9: if I move first then I'll shoot first, it means that I know the Phantom will do his best to avoid my PS9 line of sight, if I go second I might be able to dodge his shot while still having one against him.

It doesn't mean that I won,t fly low PS only builds anymore, but PS is definetly more important than before and that's a good thing.

Was at a tournament Sunday and some people were coming in at 96, 97 pts

That's nothing there is a now famous dual phantom list that clocks at 87 pts.

Don't you mean 'cloaks in at 87 pts.'

I don't really bother with initiative bid when designing a team; if the team I want to run cost 100 pts, I won't try to cut some things so it can cost 98 or 97 to garantee me an initiative that I might not need to begin with.

But, I now take PS much more into consideration than before. When going against Dash, I will feel much more confident if I have at least one ship moving after him; when going against a Phantom, I will like to have a ship at the same PS, I never felt the need to go over PS9: if I move first then I'll shoot first, it means that I know the Phantom will do his best to avoid my PS9 line of sight, if I go second I might be able to dodge his shot while still having one against him.

It doesn't mean that I won,t fly low PS only builds anymore, but PS is definetly more important than before and that's a good thing.

The Phantom eliminated all PS bidding that's under 9 PS. There is only now shoot before the phantom can recloak, and shoot after it recloaks. If I want to fly Royal Guard Squadrons or Saber Squadrons to get an edge over my opponent I'm just wasting points because either I'm facing a high PS Phantom, turret, or 3 xwing build all with high pilot skill purely to deal with the phantom.

A sad place your local meta is if all you care about is going before the Phantom.

PS8 is still relevant against Dash, Corran, Echo and Keyan; PS 6-7 against Leebo, Chewie and all the generics. Not as useful, but they still serve their purpose.

In my latest build, I took Veteran Instinct on Vessery because I found it useful to raise it at 8, and it served me well. So, in my case at least, PS bidding under PS9 is not eliminated and still relevant.

But, you seems like the kind of guy in a vendetta against the Phantom so, I don't think I will change your mind here.

I don't think the phantom is quite as scary as a lot of people. I have seen it drop very quick to concentrated fire. Fat Han is a phantom killer if there ever was one in this game but three dice ships that can land three hits will be very hard to dodge consistently. Toss outmaneuver on some ships and that makes the phantom even easier. I don't find myself enjoying the min/max meta centric mindset so I guess the PS craze is lost on me.

You see im also fortunate to play in a 'non meta' environment consisting of these wierd types of people called *friends*

Because we like each other we choose lists that are characterful or fun.

I've recently played a few 'meta lists' against my friend mark, purely to teach him how to counter them if he gets a casual game against someone who is really there to win rather than just enjoy the gaming experience (nothing wrong with that at all, its just not the aspect that gives me pleasure out of the game).

Yesterday we had two games.

I put forward a B wing (nera loaded with flechetes, keyan+HLC and SoT, Dagger with flechettes) to show him an effective anti-phantom list and i played a 'corran FCS + ST, etahn ST, Knave' e wing 'chain' list to show him how that worked.

He fielded Trellix with a mix of ties and ints (two royal guard first game, mini swarm and Howl seocnd game with ST letting Howl boost up trellixs HLC shots), i lost initiative in this second game and I *learnt* from it as the Ewing chain was less useful with trellix and howl getting in simultaneous shots

Today though i'm just flying my mixed PS A wings against him for the fun of it. When i play his missus Em today (she only plays rebels) i'm taking an imperial list that does have a phantom in it but also has two heavily loaded low PS bombers so im hardly optimising my chances... i just like the idea of having bombers with three of the ordnance slots filled. If im lucky i might live long enough to fire one or two of them off!

I appreciate the organised play scene is the 'apex' of the game... but it sure seems like the least fun aspect at the moment given all the bad feeling on here about this or that problem with top tier play.

If you don't have PS10 to move after Whisper, you will never land enough shots on her to destroy her.

I call BS.

Whisper almost always dies here to sub PS9 fire, and Whisper is flown well.

It is the damage he/she can do before dying which is important.

I find that I have the most success with both high and low pilot skills in my squadron. Having average pilot skill around 8 for all ships is not that good because you end up spending allot of points on skill. (it is average 1 point per skill increase however there are exceptions among the lower stat line ship).

The high pilot skill demand is based around the effectiveness of ACD on phantoms and in a post that attempt to balance mirror matches between to whispers instead of giving it to one side showed the importance of initiative.

Usually I set off enough points for 2 low skill generic pilots (rookies/ talas/ blues/ academies/ deltas/ ect.) then using the rest I build up my squadron. I usually build up to 100 because I don't consider myself that good of a player to sacrifice points for initiative.

However I do notice that many competitive players if they are bringing a high pilot skill list they usually cut down points depending on the list. Some people take 1 point off their limit for every skill point over 7 on their highest skilled pilot preserving the need to go first in combat (skill 8=99, skill 9=98 skill 11=96). Others go backwards saying if they encountered higher pilot skill only using initiative as a way of compensating for lower pilot skill. (Han list at 9 would be 99 points while Whisper list at 7 would be 96 points).