I know! Let's just change the FAQ to read as soon as a tie phantom is placed on the table the player controlling it loses. And we can also change the falcon to read that as soon as it is placed on the table the player controlling it wins! Does that sound fair?

I would bet that a Restricted List, similar to the LCGs would be in the talks about what to do with the Phantom. Take away VI, and suddenly, a LOT more pilots can handle Echo and Whisper.

I don't know if it's something FFG would consider doing for X-wing, but you've made this same point a lot and I think it's a better approach than most. If Veteran Instincts can't be used on a pilot with an Advanced Cloaking Device, the list of ways to get an uncloaked shot against Phantoms just about doubles.

My biggest concern with that as a fix, though, is that broadening the set of possible counters doesn't necessarily impact the set of counters that are actually used. The "Stress Wes" build, as I think ficklegreendice calls it (Wes Janson + Veteran Instincts + R3-A2 + Engine Upgrade), is a pretty big threat to Echo and Whisper, but he's not showing up a lot in tournaments. Rebel Captive shuts Advanced Cloaking Device down entirely, but according to the List Juggler it appears in just 1.6% of lists that make it to elimination rounds at Store Championships this season--about 1/3 as often as ACD. Ion Cannon Turrets make Phantoms drastically more predictable and are difficult to outmaneuver, but they appear in just 1.2% of lists.

There are counters out there that aren't being used, so while doubling the set of counters is a good idea on its own, it's hard to predict a causal relationship between doing so and reducing the proportion of all lists that feature a Large turret.

If your going to change ACD you also have to reduce the phantoms cost

The cost of a ship can't be based on what upgrade it can take. It might have something to do with what slots it has, but any given upgrade is not and can not be a factor into the cot of the ship itself.

But if your dramatically going to reduce it's life span with this change you are going to effectively remove it from play, the only way to compensate for that is a price reduction for the effected unit.

losing a tie fighter or a head hunter on a single attack is rarely a crippling blow, the same can not be said of the phantom when it's tooled up.

It's a bad idea because it has so many knock on effect's the OP has not thought through.

My biggest concern with that as a fix, though, is that broadening the set of possible counters doesn't necessarily impact the set of counters that are actually used.

I think a bit of that comes down to groupthink and/or inefficient counters. The Stress Wes or VI Wedge are both great counters to a Phantom, but also require a lot of points on a X-Wing.

Stress Wes is 36 points, 7 of those being upgrades. That's a fair amount of points to put on a relatively fragile ship. It's effective, but it's easier to use a Fat Han, which is a lot harder to kill, and a lot easier to use effectively than a X-Wing tends to be.

I think though you make a very good point about increasing the number of possible counters not really meaning an increase in the number of counters used.

But on the other hand, at my store champ, there was only 1 Phantom, there were a number of YT's, but none of the ones I saw I'd consider Rotund.

One I played against was really interesting, he paired Chewie w/DtF and Biggs in a way that meant shooting at Biggs because you had to, often meant 3-4 dice and an evade on Biggs.

It's a bad idea because it has so many knock on effect's the OP has not thought through.

That may be true, and both Sithborg and Vorpal had made some very good points. But there's no question that the Whisper + VI + ACD is on the upper end of the power scale for X-Wing, and a minor reduction in power does not mean you need to reconsider the cost of the ship itself.

If that were true, then we'd have to accept that Whisper costs too much as is, and I've yet to see anyone make that claim.

What I don't want is another phase to complicate things. Clusters Missiles are already a cluster *(&& of exceptions, so why do we need to add another for Advanced Cloaking Device. It screws up the simplicity of the timing of "after you attack", for meaningless benefit. You literally gain the same benefit for going for an initiative bid. So why the hell do you need to complicate the timing for something a player can already plan for when building a squad? Simplicity has been a valued thing in this game. Does something need to be done with the Phantom, but not this.

Of course you can go for an initiative bid, the point is, with this fix, you would no longer have to. The idea is, I think, that Phantoms have made high PS and initiative slightly too important, and this would reduce it while affecting nothing else.

The phantom uncloaked has four hit points and two agility the chances of it getting one shotted are quite high I've blown many z-95s away in one turn.

If your going to change ACD you also have to reduce the phantoms cost because very few people will take a 40+ point ship that can be killed that easily, then it becomes the new advanced and will need buffing and we go around and around.

I can see why you might want to reduce the cost of ACD, you're right, it would make it less useful. Unfortunately, I think the main issue with Whisper, VI and ACD isn't that it's undercosted, it's that it's not as fun to play against (or with in my opinion - I think stuff that vastly reduces the importance of the planning phase really spoils the fun. We had a game today that for the first time in months had no Phantoms and no large tanky turret ships, and it was the most fun we've had for ages - the planning phase is what makes this game the great game it is, in my opinion).

It's a bad idea because it has so many knock on effect's the OP has not thought through.

That may be true

How is that true? It affects nothing but this one card.

OMG, I can't believe how long this discussion has got to.

I think the fix is simple, really. You see a Phantom on the board and consider it a threat? Shoot the fkr down! Seriously. A red die has 3 hits, 1 crit, and 2 eyes. 50% chance for damage, 75% with a focus. A green die has 3 evades and 2 eyes. 38% chance of an evade, 63% chance with a focus. 4 hit points are not a lot and if you can deal a crit, there's 4 (?) direct-hit cards in the damage deck.

My Whisper/Echo ships have been killed at Range 3, through an asteroid, and cloaked. I've rolled all-blanks on 5 and 6 defense dice a couple times and I'm pretty sure my green dice are cursed. Guess how many times I'd have traded my first-born for a focus token that I didn't have after rolling evade dice? At 35 (Echo) and 37 (Whisper) points with just VI and ACD (which I consider basic upgrades for them!), that's a good bite off my squad and also 4 attack dice that are no longer rolled which is an even bigger chunk off of my offensive pool.

Being in arc of one ship, I can manage that. Two ships firing at me and it gets scary. Three ships, especially if they are in good positions, well, I'm starting to doubt my life choices and how I ended up flying Phantoms instead of Decimators or Bombers. HLC getting rid of one defense dice even at Range 3? Oh boy. Thanks very much.

All of these is why I bid for initiative all the time and fly my ass off each fight. I know my Phantoms automatically attract the ire of the opposing player's ships so I might as well get the most out of it before it goes. If my Phantom is taken out before I can take out 1-2 ships of an opponent's 4-ship list, my game is almost certainly a loss (unless I'm playing against B-Wings or a slow Albino Bovine).

This is why I say that people who complain against the Phantoms have not flown it enough times to see how squishy it really is.

You have to fly it smartly, arc-dodge or flank, know when to engage and when to run, know where to decloak (Echo), and even when you do all of those things go well, you can still lose it after just one round of bad rolls.

Fly Phantoms for a good while and go against Han+C3PO+VI for a few games and see if you're still complaining about whatever it is you think is broken. Fly against a HLC Outrider and two B-Wings with Ion Cannon Turrets. Oh, you think high PS has been made important by the Phantom? Fly against some cheap A-wing swarms with Chardaan Refit.

Do this for maybe 20 games, then come back here and see if this discussion still makes sense.

OMG, I can't believe how long this discussion has got to.

First day here?

Pretty sure this clip sums up how most phantom haters feel when they see them on the table:

My Whisper/Echo ships have been killed at Range 3, through an asteroid, and cloaked. I've rolled all-blanks on 5 and 6 defense dice a couple times and I'm pretty sure my green dice are cursed. Guess how many times I'd have traded my first-born for a focus token that I didn't have after rolling evade dice? At 35 (Echo) and 37 (Whisper) points with just VI and ACD (which I consider basic upgrades for them!), that's a good bite off my squad and also 4 attack dice that are no longer rolled which is an even bigger chunk off of my offensive pool.

Being in arc of one ship, I can manage that. Two ships firing at me and it gets scary. Three ships, especially if they are in good positions, well, I'm starting to doubt my life choices and how I ended up flying Phantoms instead of Decimators or Bombers. HLC getting rid of one defense dice even at Range 3? Oh boy. Thanks very much.

I agree with you to a large extent, but I also think it's worth pointing out that there's a lot of variability here. Whisper with no token at all against 3 attack dice with focus is an instructive example: the mode (the most likely result) is no damage, but the average is 0.95 and the median is 1, and there's a 20% chance of taking 2 damage.

And that's a huge portion of peoples' problem with Phantoms, I think: they're balanced (as the whole game is) around the ship's expected performance, but particularly if you're up against someone who isn't prepared to deal with one, that performance can have a really long right tail.

Pretty sure this clip sums up how most phantom haters feel when they see them on the table:

Same feeling I get whenever I see a big fat target on the table, either by points or by size. I still have a love-hate relationship with the Falcon... I'm still a bit scared going up against it but at the same time, I love the challenge of chewing through all that HP.

I agree with you to a large extent, but I also think it's worth pointing out that there's a lot of variability here. Whisper with no token at all against 3 attack dice with focus is an instructive example: the mode (the most likely result) is no damage, but the average is 0.95 and the median is 1, and there's a 20% chance of taking 2 damage.

And that's a huge portion of peoples' problem with Phantoms, I think: they're balanced (as the whole game is) around the ship's expected performance, but particularly if you're up against someone who isn't prepared to deal with one, that performance can have a really long right tail.

Wow, those are terms I've not come across since High School! I normally don't get much into the math aside from what I've said above plus maybe counting total HP, attack dice, and defense dice.

But you are right. I think the Phantoms are balanced in the sense of cost/vulnerability/power. If they were as "uber" as people make it seem, if they were as broken as they're made out to be, then I should have much more confidence in my Phantoms than I currently have. I don't. I know their weaknesses and I know how I can hand my opponent a win on a silver platter and I still have to work to get my victory.

Going up against an opponent who has tooled his list to kill Phantoms or at least knows what to do to deal with Phantoms is a very exciting match for me.

Sorry but I don't currently see an issue with phantoms. They have their weaknesses but it isn't any worse than a VI Corran Horn who can shoot twice in the same turn (leaving my focus token burned for defense on the first attack)

Vader Decimators

Rebel Captive

Stress Droid

Ion Cannons

Wedge with his -1 evade dice

Gunner

Double Tap

That is 6 counters on a number of ships available in xwing. If someone knows how to fly a ship well then he should get rewarded as such. Some of the combos in xwing seem so cool but are just too gimmicky and rely on everything working 100%. Well guess what it isn't going to happen that way because you will roll poorly and loose 1 piece to your straw hut and it will all fall apart quickly.

I'm not sorry your Garven/Kyle Katarn combo isn't working

I'm not sorry your fat han is fat

I'm not sorry your Dash Rendar has better action economy than most (if not all) people in the game right now.

I'm not sorry your tie swarm can roll more evades than their are stars in the sky and not take a point of damage

Look guys just play more, I promise you will see the results you want and learn how to better fly against phantoms. I have spent hours upon days of played time with my phantom and I would like to think I am a decent flyer, that being said, someone who is running a NEW LIST or hasn't put in as much play time I would expect them to have a harder time against a phantom.

It is very apparent players who enjoy certain ships get very good with them and can tilt the odds in their favor simply by being a veteran, those instincts seem to be pretty good when it is time to sit down and play in a competitive format.

OMG, I can't believe how long this discussion has got to.

First day here?

When people make suggests or comments we disagree with we get angry, call them silly names like Phantom Haters and try to make the thread personal by posting silly videos and pictures in a manner intended to demean the people we disagree with.

Fixed that for you.

OMG, I can't believe how long this discussion has got to.

First day here?

When people make suggests or comments we disagree with we get angry, call them silly names like Phantom Haters and try to make the thread personal by posting silly videos and pictures in a manner intended to demean the people we disagree with.

Fixed that for you.

You realize you are doing the exact thing you are accusing 'Phantom Lovers' of doing?

You realize you are doing the exact thing you are accusing 'Phantom Lovers' of doing?

How so?

Also, why are you quoting me as referring to "phantom lovers"? I never said that, that's exactly the sort of juvenile thing I'm criticising.

Oh, you mean the trying to demean them? Well yes, that was kinda the point, and a valid point, I thought. You seem to be ignoring the context, ie what I'm replying to, compared to what they're replying to. Don't you think that makes all the difference?

I'm neither a phantom lover or hater. I think it's a poor design in that it triggers feelings of immense frustration. I thought it was a funny clip that both sides of the argument would enjoy.

You can't get enjoyment out of Happy Gilmore clubbing a clown? What kind of monster are you?

A very good idea indeed.

Even if it requires some errata for how ACD works, that seems like a pretty legitimate idea, and mostly makes sense.

Also, let's not be too hateful, Gentleman (and ladies).

We all love the game, and want what's best for it, but it isn't nice to be mean when discussing things, even on the Internet!

I'm neither a phantom lover or hater. I think it's a poor design in that it triggers feelings of immense frustration. I thought it was a funny clip that both sides of the argument would enjoy.

You can't get enjoyment out of Happy Gilmore clubbing a clown? What kind of monster are you?

I didn't call you a Phantom Lover, but to me your post implied that you were calling the OP a Phantom Hater. If I was wrong I'm sorry.

A very good idea indeed.

Even if it requires some errata for how ACD works, that seems like a pretty legitimate idea, and mostly makes sense.

Except it really isn't. The effect is so, so minor that it will hardly affect anything in the game. While at the same time, you are adding a very weird timing window where there really shouldn't be.

I think the discussion got off on the wrong foot by people focusing too much on the example of the Phantom.

The question, as I read it, is:

Should the simultaneous attack rule take precedence over abilities and conditions that trigger after performing an attack, allowing ships of the same PS to counterattack before resolving any abilities?

So should Han be able to shoot at Whisper before Whisper recloaks? Should Whisper get the focus token before being attacked?

Or should Turr be able to boost away before getting shot at by Keyan?

There are several abilities that trigger after an attack, such as Tactician, that impact the ability of that ship to counterattack and this is likely to increase.

The answer, or at least a guide to the answer is actually under the same header at page 16 of the core rulebook:

It may perform an attack as normal during the Combat phase, although any faceup Damage cards just dealt to it may affect this attack.

This would at least indicate that triggers resolve after an attack before the other ship activates. While the core set rules may not have been written with a heap of triggers in mind, to me this settles the whole question.

Personally I don't think the issue is that it breaks the Phantom too much, I think the issue is that there's currently no good reason to take mid pilot skill ships. Perhaps if that changes everything else will fall in to place.

A very good idea indeed.

Even if it requires some errata for how ACD works, that seems like a pretty legitimate idea, and mostly makes sense.

Except it really isn't. The effect is so, so minor that it will hardly affect anything in the game. While at the same time, you are adding a very weird timing window where there really shouldn't be.

A minor change might be all we need though.

Just imagine, all PS 9 pilots now can move second to get into position AND blast the Phantom. This means PS 9 Han will ALWAYS be a solid counter, instead of, well I lost the init bid, I hope I can outplay or get lucky vs those green dice.

Or imagine, ALL mirror matches would result in Phantom murdering Phantom, unless of course one arc dodges the other. That might scare me enough to not play the ship any more.

It's kind of a minor change that makes sense too. Heck, we can call it something like Cloaking Delay, since I am pretty sure cloaking would not be an instant effect.

I just don't think a major change to the Phantom is the right choice. A small one like this might just reduce the sheer number of Phantoms out there.

Heck, I'm not really of the mind that the Phantom needs changing. But since there are SO many people that do, there obviously should be something implemented. And anything less drastic is healthier than a major over haul. We don't want to make the Phantom lovers quit, do we?

Look guys just play more, I promise you will see the results you want and learn how to better fly against phantoms. I have spent hours upon days of played time with my phantom and I would like to think I am a decent flyer, that being said, someone who is running a NEW LIST or hasn't put in as much play time I would expect them to have a harder time against a phantom.

It is very apparent players who enjoy certain ships get very good with them and can tilt the odds in their favor simply by being a veteran, those instincts seem to be pretty good when it is time to sit down and play in a competitive format.

+1 to this. When I practice my lists, I try to go against the better players. Wiping the floor with a newbie has nothing to do with my squad and almost everything to do with the opponent being a newbie.

I love the Phantom. I love the Interceptors. I really like the idea of arc-dodging and complex maneuvers. Heck, moving from Echo to Whisper, I feel very limited in my maneuvering options! Knowing how to fly my ships to the best of their abilities doesn't mean the game is broken.

It may perform an attack as normal during the Combat phase, although any faceup Damage cards just dealt to it may affect this attack.

This would at least indicate that triggers resolve after an attack before the other ship activates. While the core set rules may not have been written with a heap of triggers in mind, to me this settles the whole question.

This is another proof that Initiative is an important facet of the game. Just because we have the same PS does not mean we are on equal footing.

A minor change might be all we need though.

Just imagine, all PS 9 pilots now can move second to get into position AND blast the Phantom. This means PS 9 Han will ALWAYS be a solid counter, instead of, well I lost the init bid, I hope I can outplay or get lucky vs those green dice.

Why do we need the change? Just because a few players cannot or would not take the needed steps to counter the Phantom? Again, refer to my sentence above regarding importance of securing the Initiative. Otherwise, it'll just be "important" for "who gets to place the first asteroid."

Look guys just play more, I promise you will see the results you want and learn how to better fly against phantoms. I have spent hours upon days of played time with my phantom and I would like to think I am a decent flyer, that being said, someone who is running a NEW LIST or hasn't put in as much play time I would expect them to have a harder time against a phantom.

It is very apparent players who enjoy certain ships get very good with them and can tilt the odds in their favor simply by being a veteran, those instincts seem to be pretty good when it is time to sit down and play in a competitive format.

+1 to this. When I practice my lists, I try to go against the better players. Wiping the floor with a newbie has nothing to do with my squad and almost everything to do with the opponent being a newbie.

I love the Phantom. I love the Interceptors. I really like the idea of arc-dodging and complex maneuvers. Heck, moving from Echo to Whisper, I feel very limited in my maneuvering options! Knowing how to fly my ships to the best of their abilities doesn't mean the game is broken.

It may perform an attack as normal during the Combat phase, although any faceup Damage cards just dealt to it may affect this attack.

This would at least indicate that triggers resolve after an attack before the other ship activates. While the core set rules may not have been written with a heap of triggers in mind, to me this settles the whole question.

This is another proof that Initiative is an important facet of the game. Just because we have the same PS does not mean we are on equal footing.

A minor change might be all we need though.

Just imagine, all PS 9 pilots now can move second to get into position AND blast the Phantom. This means PS 9 Han will ALWAYS be a solid counter, instead of, well I lost the init bid, I hope I can outplay or get lucky vs those green dice.

Why do we need the change? Just because a few players cannot or would not take the needed steps to counter the Phantom? Again, refer to my sentence above regarding importance of securing the Initiative. Otherwise, it'll just be "important" for "who gets to place the first asteroid."

Will you people please stop talking as though anyone who doesn't think the Phantom is perfect is just a bad player who can't beat one. Maybe they can beat one, maybe they even think it's balaned, maybe they just think it spoils the fun of the game.