I've only just had a chance to use Misdirect in a game, and found the power to be a bit too strong.

I saw a sentry walking a wall above me, and used Misdirect to become undetectable to him, then committed my Force dice to Duration to maintain my stealth.

When I got to the top of the wall, his partner noticed me, and he noticed a sound as I stepped on some debris, but he couldn't see me. I shot his partner, and he noticed the blaster bolt, but still couldn't see me.

What do you do in that situation? We don't have the rules of breaking invisibility that the spell comes with in D&D/Pathfinder, and it seems a bit much for someone to be able to engage in combat and still remain invisible. In this case, I suggested to the GM that I roll a Deception vs. the sentry's Vigilance (the power uses this same check for its illusions).

What do all of you think? How do you play this?

Throw a thermal detonator in the general direction?

Use a weapon with blast?

Flame projectors work...

Probably put the entire place on red alert because if he saw the blaster bolt's origin point, but no person, it'd mean somebody is using one of the many number of stealth technologies that exist (Optical Camouflage System armor attachment, for example, is one you can find in the EotE/AoR rule books), and are obviously trying to attack whatever facility. Those guards would of course be able to see you.

Once the sentry sets up an alarm, he'd probably do one of two things: 1. Switch to the wide rings of the stun setting on his blaster rifle and fire in the direction of you (assuming the wall is low enough for it to be considered Short range) or 2. Throw a grenade of some kind, possibly a thermal detonator if it's a Stormtrooper, in your direction.

In terms of breaking the illusion though. It's a tough call. On one end, part of why the illusion works without a check on lower enemies is because you're presumably switching it on before they see you, so they're none-the-wiser, so it would make sense that once they know for sure that something is there that is trying to hide from them, that they'd have the opportunity to break it. On the other, you're committing a rather high number of dice to ensure that the people effected are constantly having their heads messed with to not see you...

Ultimately, yeah, you're probably right to have the Sentry have a chance to break the illusion once they went from suspicion of something being there to confirmation. I might make the check player's Deception vs. either the NPC's Vigilance or Perception (whichever is higher). Because the reason Vigilance is used for the other check is again, part of the reason why there may not have been a check to hide yourself normally - because you're using it before they're aware of you. So Vigilance makes sense in that case because it's basically a matter of them trying to spot something that's hiding that they don't know is trying to hide. And of course, Perception is the more active searching, which fits since now they're looking for clues on where you are (indents in the dirt of your footprints for example).

If the character was actually shooting at the guy I would at the very least allow for an opposed Deception vs. Vigilance check, with a substantial amount of boost dice for the guard. But I'd be more inclined to say that the power ends outright. It's a mind trick, not an invisibility cloak.

In practice it doesn't really matter, though. Once shots have been fired any sentry in the world would sound every alarm conceivable whether he could see who was shooting or not. He might not be able to get a good look at the shooter, but he'd sound the alarm anyway.

Oh, and how much Conflict would it be to use the Force to kill from ambush? I'd rate that one at 4-5 or thereabouts.

If they know someone is there I would give them the standard check vs force which I think is Dicipline to attempt to shake it off.

Misdirection doesn't make you Invisible it takes the targets attention away from you for that moment or when you use Duration then for longer. It's not mind control where you block out your existence to the target. Essentially you made him look the other way until you pass, so if you are sneaking along and nothing changes you're okay. However if the situation changes your previous Misdirection is no longer effective (at least thats how I rule it) because you've drawn their attention to you by your actions and they can now see you and act against you. You'd need to Misdirect again if you wanted to get it benefit not force the NPC to make an Opposed check.

Think of how Obi Wan misdirected the two Stormtroopers when he was turning off the tractor beam on the Death Star.

Also remember things like stealth fields and holographic camo attachments exist in this universe. So anyone with half a brain might just assume you're using that and take appropriate action.

Invisibility is nice, but it doesn't confer invincibility. Think about the last time you played a video game with an invisible opponent. You didn't just stand there like a stump simply because you couldn't clearly see your opponent...

Misdirection doesn't make you Invisible it takes the targets attention away from you for that moment or when you use Duration then for longer. It's not mind control where you block out your existence to the target. Essentially you made him look the other way until you pass, so if you are sneaking along and nothing changes you're okay. However if the situation changes your previous Misdirection is no longer effective (at least thats how I rule it) because you've drawn their attention to you by your actions and they can now see you and act against you. You'd need to Misdirect again if you wanted to get it benefit not force the NPC to make an Opposed check.

Think of how Obi Wan misdirected the two Stormtroopers when he was turning off the tractor beam on the Death Star.

I always thought of the talent Slight of Mind as the ability Obi-Wan used.

In the descriptions used for Misdirection it talks about illusions and even changing the appearance of the user which leads me to believe they are more than just diverting attention.

Misdirection doesn't make you Invisible it takes the targets attention away from you for that moment or when you use Duration then for longer. It's not mind control where you block out your existence to the target. Essentially you made him look the other way until you pass, so if you are sneaking along and nothing changes you're okay. However if the situation changes your previous Misdirection is no longer effective (at least thats how I rule it) because you've drawn their attention to you by your actions and they can now see you and act against you. You'd need to Misdirect again if you wanted to get it benefit not force the NPC to make an Opposed check.

Think of how Obi Wan misdirected the two Stormtroopers when he was turning off the tractor beam on the Death Star.

I always thought of the talent Slight of Mind as the ability Obi-Wan used.

In the descriptions used for Misdirection it talks about illusions and even changing the appearance of the user which leads me to believe they are more than just diverting attention.

I'm AFB, I'll take a look and see. Regardless, in the situation the OP describes I'd still rule the same.

[Deleted]

Misdirection doesn't make you Invisible it takes the targets attention away from you for that moment or when you use Duration then for longer. It's not mind control where you block out your existence to the target. Essentially you made him look the other way until you pass, so if you are sneaking along and nothing changes you're okay. However if the situation changes your previous Misdirection is no longer effective (at least thats how I rule it) because you've drawn their attention to you by your actions and they can now see you and act against you. You'd need to Misdirect again if you wanted to get it benefit not force the NPC to make an Opposed check.

Think of how Obi Wan misdirected the two Stormtroopers when he was turning off the tractor beam on the Death Star.

Actually, you can use it both ways.

"...beguiling his targets so that he can hide people and objects in plain sight or impose sensory illusions on those targets..."

Latter being what Obi-Wan did, former being the "turn invisible" aspect. And just to add to how it turns people invisible:

"Until the end of the user's next turn, the target cannot see or sense the hidden person or object." and "The user may alter the perceived appearance of chosen person or object, instead of hiding it."

Both are perfectly valid methods of doing it, with each having their own benefits.

Thanks Lathrop.

Reading that I still would rule the same way because once the PC fires their weapon the situation has changed dramatically and as such I see it knocking the target out of the Misdirect, at least partially. There should be a penalty to the FU because of the new situation so I kill the effect and force the Player to re-establish the Misdirect (the penalty cost being an Action). This also puts the roll back in the Player's hand rather than me having to make an Opposed roll.

Misdirection doesn't make you Invisible it takes the targets attention away from you for that moment or when you use Duration then for longer. It's not mind control where you block out your existence to the target. Essentially you made him look the other way until you pass, so if you are sneaking along and nothing changes you're okay. However if the situation changes your previous Misdirection is no longer effective (at least thats how I rule it) because you've drawn their attention to you by your actions and they can now see you and act against you. You'd need to Misdirect again if you wanted to get it benefit not force the NPC to make an Opposed check.

Think of how Obi Wan misdirected the two Stormtroopers when he was turning off the tractor beam on the Death Star.

As Lathrop quoted, the power says that it makes you undetectable by the target's senses. That's a bit more than just a distraction. If it's only for a round, maybe you could look at it that way, but once Duration comes into it, it's a lot more than that unless you're thinking of a constant distraction.

As Lathrop quoted, the power says that it makes you undetectable by the target's senses. That's a bit more than just a distraction. If it's only for a round, maybe you could look at it that way, but once Duration comes into it, it's a lot more than that unless you're thinking of a constant distraction.

I'm not disagreeing, I was just AFB. As I said I'd still require the PC to re-activate the Misdirect in a situation that involved something as jarring as Blaster fire and the death of one's squad mate.

The point I was making was that Misdirecting implants a distraction directly into the targets mind, overwhelming their senses. Whether they look away or just don't see isn't really that important mechanically. But the "image" the Force User implants is situational and if the situation changes enough the Misdirect should fail to some degree. Rather than having the GM roll a made up Opposed check it makes more sense to place the dice back into the hands of the Player's PC and have them roll to update/re-establish control of the power.

Here's my take on the thing. Envision the following: Kuro Kazik is an emerging Sentinel: Shien Expert/Shadow, a descendant of a line of mighty Jedi. He is (let's say) 200 XP into his journey. Kuro's player is playing a solo mission with his GM because the rest of the players are on vacation, so the GM staged a well-timed capture last session and now Kuro is on a mission to rescue his friends from an Imperial detention facility on the jungle world of Kashyyyk.

As the scene transitions, the GM has just allowed Kuro to use an incredible Stealth check to make a Force power check as a follow-up before beginning combat. The choice is between Move (perhaps throwing a sentry off the bridge or into his two compatriots) or Misdirect. Kuro chooses to keep up the stealthy approach a bit longer...

Misdirect power: 2eF 4 Light Side

Kuro Kazik's player opts to spend a Force point to activate the base power, and another to activate the Range & Magnitude Upgrades, affecting two sentries at medium range and one at short range. He then commits his two Force dice to maintain the power, per the Duration Upgrade.

From the shadows under the jungle brush, Kuro Kazik allowed the Force to flow through the weak minds of the three sentries guarding the gate ahead, obscuring their perception. Then he exerted some extra control over the sentries, using all of his willpower to remain hidden.

The initiative check is made: Kuro gets to act first!

Round 1:

Kuro slipped out from under the shadows, but stubbed his toe and accidentally rustled a few leaves as he passed. The sentry had enough presence of mind to turn and look at the mysteriously swaying leaves before he was decapitated by a quick strike of Kuro's brilliant yellow lightsaber blade.

The sentries' NPC turn is narrated in the next post...

The two sentries close to the gate let out a startled shout, and both drew their weapons! They couldn't see what had just taken off their comrade's head, but they sure weren't gullible enough to go look. (So even if the sentries start shooting, they will be facing at least 3 setback dice (per Table 6-7: Concealment).

The GM rules that the sentries suffer four setbacks: 3 for concealment, and 1 extra because Kuro has Ranged Defense 1. But since they saw their fellow sentry cut down, they have a general idea of the direction to shoot.

They spray the area with blasterfire:

Sentries shooting blindly at Kuro Kazik: 1eP+2eA+2eD+4eS 1 success, 4 threat

Damage is 10. Kuro then activates Reflect + Improved Reflect, suffering only 2 Wounds and 3 more strain in the process (with Soak 5 and Reflect 3). He deals 10 damage (minus Soak) to the two sentries. Since the three sentries were all part of a minion group, and Kuro has previously dealt a total of 10 damage to the group with his lightsaber, this reflected shot finishes both the other sentries off.

The bolts flew fast and furious through the air all around Kuro. It was unfortunate that he wasn't able to make this approach any more stealthily. Regardless, he knew exactly what to do. Relying on the Force, he stepped directly into the sentries' line of fire, redirecting one bolt—and then another—into the chests of the two unlucky individuals.

The smoke cleared, and Kuro took a deep breath. This was just the beginning...he still had to make it through the heavily fortified Imperial installation and free his friends before they were executed at dawn...in just under 2 hours.

@away Thanks for that I don't have a problem at all with what you've just described (it was kinda cool too), in fact thats exactly as I would run it.

For some reason I was thinking about the next round. So I would agree that for the remainder of that Round any attack from the Misdirected Opponent(s) would be handled as above (shooting blind). On the following Round however because the situation has changed dramatically if the Opponent(s) is still standing the Misdirection has been broken (assuming the FU used Duration) and the FU PC has a choice of Attacking or Misdirecting again. I think that this approach is reasonable in a situation where Combat has broken out.

Yeah, I'll be interested to see what the FaD CRB holds for Misdirect. If nothing has changed from the Beta, it would probably warrant a rules question at least, I'd be interested to know how it was intended to work in a situation like that.

The two sentries close to the gate let out a startled shout, and both drew their weapons! They couldn't see what had just taken off their comrade's head, but they sure weren't gullible enough to go look. (So even if the sentries start shooting, they will be facing at least 3 setback dice (per Table 6-7: Concealment).

The GM rules that the sentries suffer four setbacks: 3 for concealment, and 1 extra because Kuro has Ranged Defense 1. But since they saw their fellow sentry cut down, they have a general idea of the direction to shoot.

They spray the area with blasterfire:

Sentries shooting blindly at Kuro Kazik: 1eP+2eA+2eD+4eS 1 success, 4 threat

Damage is 10. Kuro then activates Reflect + Improved Reflect, suffering only 2 Wounds and 3 more strain in the process (with Soak 5 and Reflect 3). He deals 10 damage (minus Soak) to the two sentries. Since the three sentries were all part of a minion group, and Kuro has previously dealt a total of 10 damage to the group with his lightsaber, this reflected shot finishes both the other sentries off.

The bolts flew fast and furious through the air all around Kuro. It was unfortunate that he wasn't able to make this approach any more stealthily. Regardless, he knew exactly what to do. Relying on the Force, he stepped directly into the sentries' line of fire, redirecting one bolt—and then another—into the chests of the two unlucky individuals.

The smoke cleared, and Kuro took a deep breath. This was just the beginning...he still had to make it through the heavily fortified Imperial installation and free his friends before they were executed at dawn...in just under 2 hours.

I'm still waiting for the epic conclusion.

What do all of you think? How do you play this?

How would I play this?

Problem solved!

If I understand FuriousGreg right, I'd probably rule it the way he does in one of my games. We have a PC who uses Misdirect, but he hasn't ever tried to stand there and shoot blasters at a target who's being affected by it. He uses it for stealth and sneaking around.

I'd say if you're shooting directly at somebody, that's enough to at least give them a chance to see you (if they're a minion) and probably just to actually break the Misdirect (for a Rival or Nemesis, especially for a big boss character).

"Breaking" the effect is just such a gamist concept to me, like straight out of D&D and Elder Scrolls.

This game handles concealment just fine with multiple Setbacks; IMO, there is no need to try and balance Misdirect by shoehorning in a d20 concept. Trading 2 Force dice for 3 Setbacks against a set number of targets is pretty well balanced already.

Also, it's not like the effect is unbeatable. The rules allow for opposed checks, and since it's a mind affecting power, a Discipline checks sounds like a good call for "breaking" through the illusion when one knows one is being visually deceived.