I'm posting this here even though the most egregious examples occur in Deathwatch.

So for example, there are several tyranids with dedicated weapons with ROF -/-/10 or even higher in some instances. However they only have a BS of around 35 to 40 or so.

Unless I have a deeply flawed understanding of the mechanics, I dont see how those creatures could ever get more than about have that ROF even with a 01 roll. I mean even if you stack some favorable to hit modifiers to get it to around 60 BS or so, that still only accounts for about half the ROF in hits.

So if that is the case, what is the point of creating dedicated weapons with ROF 10 and higher on creature platforms with low BS?

How do you ever land 10 of 10 hits or higher in some cases?

I think the point of High-RoF weapons in these games (aside from their obvious usefulness for Suppression) tends to be not to get as many shots as possible into the target, but rather increasing the chance that at least one attack hits. More hits are a bonus.

So it fits if they are issued to troops that have a poor BS, as in this case they would be used to compensate a weakness.

Hitting 10 of 10 - an incredibly damaging attack result that gets bandied about by players paranoid of autoguns - should thus be rare as a desired outcome for balancing reasons, excepting perhaps point-blank attacks where you unload an entire clip into an enemy that's charging you for close combat.

That being said, I think the current mechanic in the RAW could be improved, as I personally don't like some of its aspects, such as the bonus to BS being identical regardless of the weapon. Instead, I would propose that every single shot fired as part of the FA burst adds +2 to BS.

As a side-effect, this should also deal with using FA bursts when you have fewer rounds in the clip than the attack would otherwise consume: you spout fewer bullets, so the bonus to BS is not as big! Technically, you could even make the SA burst redundant with this rule and use it to cover both.

If you want to go even deeper into detail, you could make it so that some weapons such as boltguns may add +3, whilst others such as heavy stubbers are less accurate and only add +1. It opens up a whole new section of gun balancing!

How do you ever land 10 of 10 hits or higher in some cases?

You take your time aiming at the surprized Warlord-Class Titan. From point-blank range.

How do you ever land 10 of 10 hits or higher in some cases?

You take your time aiming at the surprized Warlord-Class Titan. From point-blank range.

LOL

Yes, I think the idea is that hitting with all guns is going to be extremely rare, perhaps if you sneak upon an enemy and go all-out from point blank range. Point blank + full auto + enemy unaware + other modifiers (scopes, for example) +01 on the attack roll could get you all those hits in.

So if that is the case, what is the point of creating dedicated weapons with ROF 10 and higher on creature platforms with low BS?

How do you ever land 10 of 10 hits or higher in some cases?

Since the total bonus can be as high as +60 and the first hit comes as soon as you pass your check, you can actually hit with all 10 shot, in certain rare circumstances. But!

That's not actually why certain of these weapons have RoFs of eg. -/-/10.

It's a forward compatibility issue. That special snowflake tyranid warrior prime with BS 83? Yeah, it can have that gun as well. And then those 10 shot might very well all be relevant.

For non-tyranid weapons, there might also be issues of ammo use, for groups that track such (my current group does).

Also, to be fair, aren't 'nid weapons shooting bugs?

If I was a ****, I'd have every shot that missed land 1 meter away per DOF and start wriggling towards the player. If they can get to the player before 1 round has passed, they can still bite their leg.

...I need to remember that.

It should only matter if their legs are unprotected ... but I still like that idea just for the psychological effect.

In fact, you could expand that even further. "Shots" that splattered against your armour sometimes surviving the impact, crawling into the target's clothes and .. hours later, when they're already sitting in an APC as their unit retreats from the battlefield, the wearer starts to feel something crawling over their chest skin. And due to all the armour they can't immediately brush it off. And they're stuck in a cramped Chimaera together with a dozen other people. Ugh.

Or for "shots" that bypassed the armour and wounded the target. Maybe they keep on burrowing deeper into the body, just eating and eating and eating away. Frantically, the medic tries to rip open the wound and thrust her pliers into the soldier's chest in a desperate attempt to reach the bug and pull it back out before it reaches a vital organ ...

I imagine it kinda like the scene from the Mummy, where Jonathan gets a scarab burrowing in his arm.

Also, the Mummy is kind of how I want to run a game involving Necrons...just one Necron, and it basically **** up yo shiiiiiiiit!

I'm posting this here even though the most egregious examples occur in Deathwatch.

So for example, there are several tyranids with dedicated weapons with ROF -/-/10 or even higher in some instances. However they only have a BS of around 35 to 40 or so.

Unless I have a deeply flawed understanding of the mechanics, I dont see how those creatures could ever get more than about have that ROF even with a 01 roll. I mean even if you stack some favorable to hit modifiers to get it to around 60 BS or so, that still only accounts for about half the ROF in hits.

So if that is the case, what is the point of creating dedicated weapons with ROF 10 and higher on creature platforms with low BS?

How do you ever land 10 of 10 hits or higher in some cases?

By providing the primary shooter with assistants you can increase the BS value. Up to 2 (n)pc's can assist the primary shooter, each providing a +10 bonus for a total of +20. Add other situational modifiers and you could be increasing the BS to fairly decent values....

Maybe the 10 shots = 10 hits will always be unlikely but never forget the value of assistance. Especially if you have low level minions....

Excellent point ranoncles, I forget about assistance.

It does make me wonder just how this assistance is supposed to work. The first image that came to mind was tiny people helping to lift your gun barrel and pointing out which way to shoot.

I suppose you could wing it with stuff such as the assistants' weapons fire "flushing out" your targets so that you have an easier time hitting them; I vaguely remember Only War had something like that for the Comrades. Still, if I were a GM, I think I would only allow Assist Bonuses to be applied to actions where other characters can actively help with a specific task by physically "increasing your presence", such as an additional pair of arms pulling open a closed door etc. That is entirely a matter of interpretation, though!

dont forget a Rogue Traders special ability to +10 any action! he just has to yell to shoot straighter!

IIRC, there is a "spotter" item or some such that when used by a player, can give a bonus to someone who has aimed and is using a gun. Other than that, I don't really know how someone else could help you shoot beyond the aforementioned holding up the barrel.

Guys (and girls), are you really trying to inject realism into the game ?

In this case, I'd expect the assistance to be in the form of target spotting or additional fire flushing out the targets so the primary gets a better target solution.

Guys (and girls), are you really trying to inject realism into the game ?

I subscribe to the concept of "fantastical realism".

DWatch frequently works with hordes. Horde has a bonus to hit against it equal to its magnitude, which can be more than 100. Here are multiple hits.

DWatch frequently works with hordes. Horde has a bonus to hit against it equal to its magnitude, which can be more than 100. Here are multiple hits.

1) The bonus does (sadly) not equal the magnitude. I wish it did, that would be a lot easier.

2) The bonus would have been capped at +60. So yeah...