Just playing a game and used Ashrian Heroic Feat stunned a group of Flesh Moulders. Then another Hero killed one of the Moulders. If the Overload brings a Flesh Moulder back on as a reinforcement is it stunned? The Heroic Feat states " ..... Each monster in that group is stunned" and the monster coming in is a member of that group.

Or are we missing something sorry if we are

The stunned condition is applied the moment you use the heroic feat. Any monster of the group which is not on the map as you use this feat is not affected.

The stun is applied at the time Ashrian performs her action. A reinforced flesh moulder is a brand new monster, so it wouldn't be stunned. The feat is applied to the whole group, but that is read as "every member of the group that's on the map." By the same token, if an effect applies to "every hero," it doesn't apply to a knocked out hero, because that hero isn't on the map, only his token is (they're only considered on the map for healing abilities.) To look at it another way, those monsters don't stay stunned forever, just until they discard the condition, right? One of the ways to discard a condition is to die.

EDIT: Funkfried beat me to it.

I agree with the answers above but the Feat says "Each monster in that monster group is stunned" the reinforcement is still a member of that group

I agree with the answers above but the Feat says "Each monster in that monster group is stunned" the reinforcement is still a member of that group

It does, but "each monster in the group" means "each monster that is here right now." Monsters (and familiars like the reanimate, it has been ruled) do not exist before they appear on the map. When you place a figure on the map that hasn't been on the map, it is 100% fresh. There aren't exactly 3 flesh moulders and 1 master, there are continually fresh ones, and there is simply a limit on the number that can be on the map at a given time.

EDIT: If you look at the section in the rulebook that talks about defeated monsters, it states that monsters that are taken off the map are removed from play. To me, that implies that no game effect touches them. This applies to any non-hero that is off the map- they are out of play entirely.

If the reinforcement coming on is not stunned then it must be no longer a member of the group as the Feat states the group is stunned. If he is not a member of the stunned group he can't come on because it would fall foul of the max number of groups of those monsters.

In the scenario we are playing it would make a difference to the hero group as they would not kill the Flesh Moulder as it would stop it coming back as a reinforcement.

I agree this seems like a "rule police" question and yea we could roll a dice and we come up with a house rule but would be nice to see what others think.

Zaltyre and Funkfried have answered this question perfectly above. Any new reinforcements are not stunned, as they were not on the board at the time Ashrian would have used the heroic feat.

That does not preclude them from still being a member of this monster group, nor does it prevent reinforcements. The Feat happens at a specific point in time ... once it is utilized and triggered, the game continues on, with reinforcements happening normally, including those belonging to the monster group in question.

This heroic feat is triggered, affects whatever currently exists, and then ends. It does not continue on for the rest of the encounter/quest.

Zaltyre and Funkfried have answered this question perfectly above. Any new reinforcements are not stunned, as they were not on the board at the time Ashrian would have used the heroic feat.

That does not preclude them from still being a member of this monster group, nor does it prevent reinforcements. The Feat happens at a specific point in time ... once it is utilized and triggered, the game continues on, with reinforcements happening normally, including those belonging to the monster group in question.

This heroic feat is triggered, affects whatever currently exists, and then ends. It does not continue on for the rest of the encounter/quest.

Sorry I am not trying to be a pedant but it is still a member of the group just because the monster left the map and comes back it still a member of that group so you are saying the wording "member of the group" stops being relevant to them when they leave the map. Then the logical conclusion is they come back as not a member of the group and would fall foul of group size.

I agree it would only last for one turn that the Feat activated not for the whole of the quest because that would be crazy

I think I see the snag. Try thinking about it this way- the flesh moulder that is off the map is not "part of the monster group" when it is off the map, because for the purpose of any game effect, it doesn't exist. When it is reinforced, think of it as joining the group- the group grows to include one more monster (but may not grow beyond the group limits.) Now, just because the flesh moulder has joined the group, it does not become stunned- because as was pointed out, the stunning is an instantaneous effect- it does not retroactively get applied to the new flesh moulder.

You are certainly correct that from a strategic standpoint, sometimes it is better for the heroes to leave a monster alive and crippled than kill it completely.

We would agree with the viewpoint of the instantaneous effect its the meaning of the group as it does not stop being a member of that group that has the effect of the Feat on it. Our feeling is the reinforcement can enter the board but is stunned on arrival. But as Noobs to this game we learning and I am sure we will come across more interesting rule anomalies.

Well, we tried to explain the correct ruling.

If you aren't satisfied with our answers, you have two choices. You can direct the question to FFG's Rules Mavens, but I assure you they will say the same thing. Or, you can make a home rule that leaves you feeling better about how it gets played.

In either case, I will say this ... if you are having this much trouble with a fairly straight forward issue, then you are in for a hell of a good time/ride when it comes to issues that are really challenging !!!

Anyway, if all of your players agree with the home rule, then that is all that matters ... that and having a good time. Just be careful that if you branch out and play with others or go to FLGS' and play, they may not find favor with your home brewed rules.

EDIT: After further thought, I wanted to add one more point. Be aware that many of the critical rules in this game are the way they are to insure relative balance. The more you make home rules, especially about something as important as conditions and/or reinforcements, the more you potentially affect the balance of the game.

Last analogy, then I direct you to any2cards' advice:

I have a bag of apples. A friend comes by and cuts each apple in the bag in half, and declares "each of your apples is cut in half!" Later, I receive a new apple, and drop it in the bag. Is this new fruit either cut in half or, if not, not an apple? No- it simply wasn't one of my apples when he cut the others and made an observation which was true at the time.

The statement "all flesh moulders are stunned" is true immediately after the feat is performed. Once a new flesh moulder shows up on scene, the statement ceases to be so.

We are very satisfied with the answers - least create a debate. We are loving the game and this is a minor issue in the meaning of life and the game. We are all life-long gamers so this issue cannot spoil this game. With respect two people saying the same thing a number of times does not make it correct. Neither of the answers have addressed the issue of "the group is stunned" these new Moulders are part of the group and remain part of that group for the game. When or iff killed they come back as part of that group when they are off the board they are still part of that group.

Not sure this issue has any more milage as we going round and round in circles so guess it role a dice time - thanks for the disscussion

Two people who have played this game since its inception, who are two of the largest contributors on this forum, and both of whom have intimate knowledge of the rules and the faq, would mostly likely have a decent shot at being correct as it pertains to a base rule of the game.

Of course, as I said before, you can always submit your question to FFG themselves, but I suspect you won't even believe their answer - as it will be the same as ours.

For what it's worth, by your group's logic, and taken to it's ultimate conclusion, once any monster is stunned at any point during a campaign, that monster group will forever be stunned, no matter when they show up next. While this amounts to hyperbole, it should demonstrate how illogical the thought is.

For the record, Any2cards and Zaltyre are absolutely correct. An ability cannot and will not effect a monster which is not yet on the board, unless it goes out of it's way to specifically state that it will effect monsters which will later come onto the board. A monster which is reinforced does not exist until the moment it is on the board, and the monsters which are targeted by the stun are only those that actually exist at the time of the stunning. Future reinforcements do not enter the field stunned, because they did not exist at the time the stun took effect. That would be like saying the disciple using his Radiant Light ability and dealing 3 damage to every monster within his line of sight then deals 3 damage automatically to every monster that ever comes into his line of sight.

Requirements for an effect are only checked at the moment the effect is triggered. The requirement for a monster to be stunned by Ashiran is that it be in the monster group, but also that it be on the map (because you cannot stun something that doesn't exist). The only time those two conditions are checked for is the moment Ashiran activates the heroic feat. After that point, the condition is no longer triggered or checked for, so future monsters escape by virtue of not having existed at the time she used the ability.

A monster not on the map is not part of a monster group. Monster groups describe the monsters on the map which belong to the same monster stat card. Monsters not on the map simply do not exist, and therefore cannot be effected by any such ability.

Last analogy, then I direct you to any2cards' advice:

I have a bag of apples. A friend comes by and cuts each apple in the bag in half, and declares "each of your apples is cut in half!" Later, I receive a new apple, and drop it in the bag. Is this new fruit either cut in half or, if not, not an apple? No- it simply wasn't one of my apples when he cut the others and made an observation which was true at the time.

The statement "all flesh moulders are stunned" is true immediately after the feat is performed. Once a new flesh moulder shows up on scene, the statement ceases to be so.

In my opinion, this explains the issue perfectly.

Now I am going to get myself an apple !!

I agree that Zaltyre's analogy hits the nail firmly on the head.

I always explained her power to any new players as something similar to a deku nut in the legend of Zelda games ( or a flash bang for those wanting something more realistic); There is a quick flash, every monster in the targeted group is stunned in that moment, then the area/map is as it was. So any reinforcements might be coming from a level/area that was not effected by the flash.

I think it's obvious that it's an instantaneous effect, otherwise, when does it end?

Ashrian could use her feat on one of the OL's open group at the begining of a quest and for the rest of the quest, any reinforcements to that group would be stunned?

Look at the other heroes if you want to understand it better. All the other heroice feats are immediate one shot actions. Why should Ashrian be different?