So, one thing I haven't seen discussed before is how to maximize the second shot. I can think of a few different ways, all of which have some sort of draw back, but I figured I'd talk through them and see if we can come to a consensus on the best things to try out first. For the moment, I'm going to be discussing Rebel Y wings and Ion Cannon Turrets, as the requirement for a focus on the blaster (in addition to a second shot) and the R1 forward arc of the autoblaster make them seem inferior.

First off, there's are free actions/tokens. This can come from multiple sources: Garven, Kyle, Squad Leader, Lando, Dutch, Airen. These could be useful, but you have to sit and wonder - if I'm going to be giving a second action to someone, would I rather give the 2 attack dice Y wing a second action, or someone with a bit more punch? As such, I would think the opportunity cost of giving a TL to a Y wing would be too high.

2) You could take R2-D6 and your own EPT and stack your own modifers that way. PTL, Marks, and Predator come to mind, though outmaneuver might not be a bad one either. But if you go with PTL, then you're left going 1 or 2 straight (or having a wingman), so that doesn't seem reasonable. Outmaneuver is interesting and would depend on how big of a threat the Y wing is perceived, but my guess is with the shoddy dial that it has, this won't be too good of an EPT. Which brings us to Marks and Predator - neither stress you, and both modify both attacks. Marksmanship's crit will be wasted on the ion, but it still counts as a focus result, so it might be worth something. And predator doesn't require an action, but you'll get to reroll two dice total, in addition to your normal focus action. This sounds promising too.

c. Experimental Interface + R7-T1. This is an interesting combo. You can take a focus, and then activate R7-T1 off of EI to boost and get a TL. This could actually be useful for closing to R1 for the autoblaster turret, but could work with the ion turret as well. The problem I foresee with this is obviously the stress aspect, but with a free boost, that can be mitigated a bit by altering your heading in the action phase instead of the maneuver phase.

iv. R5-K6. Perhaps the least elegant solution is to just try to reacquire your target lock. This card has been useless since day one, but perhaps the ability to potentially gain two free TLs in one turn makes it worth it?

Now, let’s discuss the “math” on each one, to see if we can rule some of these out as not being optimal. To start with, there’s only a 43.75% of rolling a focus at R2 with your primary weapon. So that means that 56.25% of the time, you’ll have a focus for your ICT attack anyways. Using focus as the default action, your expected <booms> rolled is 1.5 <boom> + .4375*1.5<boom> + .5625*2.25<boom> = 3.42<booms> (out of a maximum of 5). Obviously this doesn’t directly translate to damage since the ICT can only do 1 damage, and agility plays a large factor in it, but for now, I’m going to attempt to maximize the 3.42 total <booms> number.

First, a second action, namely a target lock, can be acquired. If we say that we’ll spend the TL on the first attack if there’s a <blank>, and otherwise spend the F when there’s a <eye>, we come away with the following distribution:

2 <boom> = 25%

1 <boom> 1 <eye> = 25%

1 <boom> 1 <blank> = 25%

RR <boom> = 12.5%

RR <eye> = 6.25%

RR <blank> = 6.25%

2 <eye> = 6.25%

1 <eye> 1 <blank> = 12.5%

RR <boom> = 6.25%

RR <eye> = 3.125%

RR <blank> = 3.125%

2 <blank> = 6.25%

RR 2 <boom> = 1.5625%

RR <boom> <eye> = 1.5625%

RR <boom> <blank> = 1.5625%

RR 2 <eye> = .390625%

RR <eye> <blank> = .78125%

RR 2 <blank> = .390625%

And the following actions remaining comes out to:

TL+F = 25%

TL = 31.25%

F = 22.265625%

Nada = 21.484375%

So, if we apply these weighted results to the second attack, we get a total <boom> of:

1.88 <boom> + .25 * 2.81 <boom> + .3125 * 2.25 <boom> + .2226 * 2.25 <boom> + .2148 * 1.5 <boom> = 4.10 <boom>

This 4.10 <boom> is actually a higher increase from 3.42 <boom> than a standard three dice attack stacking TL+F (.68 additional Boom vs. .56 for 3FTL). Perhaps it is better to give out the second action to the double attack Y wing! Perhaps this is a viable action stack.

Taking Marksmanship costs 4 points, but gives you a focus token for both attacks. This will yield 1.5 <boom> + 2.25 <boom> = 3.75 <boom> for the cost of 4 points. This is only an increase of .33 <boom>, which is a rather poor return on investment if you ask me.

Predator still costs 4 points, but gives you a pseudo TL for each attack. The first attack can be looked at from either rerolling blanks only, or rerolling both blanks and foci, so we’ll take a look at both methods. Obviously if you roll two foci, then you’d just spend the token. First, if you spend the token right away:

2 <boom> = 25%

1 <boom> 1 <eye> = 25%

1 <boom> 1 <blank> = 25%

RR <boom> = 12.5%

RR <eye> = 6.25%

RR <blank> = 6.25%

2 <eye> = 6.25%

1 <eye> 1 <blank> = 12.5%

RR <boom> = 6.25%

RR <eye> = 3.125%

RR <blank> = 3.125%

2 <blank> = 6.25%

RR <boom> = 3.125%

RR <eye> = 1.5625%

RR <blank> = 1.5625%

And the following actions remaining comes out to:

F = 48.4375%

Nada = 51.5625%

Expected overall <booms> is 1.83 <boom> + .484375 * 2.68 <boom> + .515625 * 1.94 <boom> = 4.128 <boom>

And if you use predator to reroll a single focus result (when the other is a <boom>), this is the distribution:

2 <boom> = 25%

1 <boom> 1 <eye> = 25%

RR <boom> 12.5%

RR <eye> = 6.25%

RR <blank> = 6.25%

1 <boom> 1 <blank> = 25%

RR <boom> = 12.5%

RR <eye> = 6.25%

RR <blank> = 6.25%

2 <eye> = 6.25%

1 <eye> 1 <blank> = 12.5%

RR <boom> = 6.25%

RR <eye> = 3.125%

RR <blank> = 3.125%

2 <blank> = 6.25%

RR <boom> = 3.125%

RR <eye> = 1.5625%

RR <blank> = 1.5625%

And the following actions remaining comes out to:

F = 67.1875%

Nada = 32.8125%

Expected overall <booms> is 1.77 <boom> + .671875 * 2.68 <boom> + .328125 * 1.94 <boom> = 4.207 <boom>. Huh, it’s actually better to reroll the <eye> results if there’s only one, who knew?

Finally, R5-K6 gives you a 37.5% of getting a TL for the next attack. So the math on him comes out as follows:

2 <boom> = 25%

1 <boom> 1 <eye/blank> = 50%

RR <boom> = 25%

RR <eye/blank> =25%

2 <eye/blank> = 25%

RR 2 <boom> = 6.25%

RR 1 <boom> 1 <eye/blank> = 12.5%

RR 2 <eye/blank> = 6.25%

And the following actions remaining comes out to:

TL = 25% + 37.5% = 62.5%

Nada = 37.5%

Expected overall <booms> is 1.5 <boom> + .625 * 2.25 <boom> + .375 * 1.5 <boom> = 3.469 <boom>. That’s just an AWFUL return on investment there. Although I will say that there is a 14% that the following attack will be a TL+F attack since you’d maintain your TL anyways.

So, if we did a two round combination for R5-K6, we come up with

3.469 <boom> first round

3.469 <boom> second round 85.9%

4.10 <boom> second round 14.1%

Two round average <boom> = 3.513 <boom>. So even going into a second round, it’s still BARELY an increase in <booms> rolled, nevertheless damage done.

To summarize in one little table:

Taking a Focus action = 3.42 <booms>

Taking a F+TL actions = 4.10 <booms>, increase of .68 <boom>

Taking Marksmanship = 3.75 <booms>, increase of .33 <boom>

Taking Predator (not rerolling Focus) = 4.13 <booms>, increase of .71 <boom>

Taking Predator (rerolling Focus) = 4.21 <booms>, increase of .79 <boom>

Taking R5-K6 = 3.51 <booms>, increase of .09 <boom>

Horton will be useful, at Range 2. And that's about all I have to add to your list.

iv. R5-K6. Perhaps the least elegant solution is to just try to reacquire your target lock. This card has been useless since day one, but perhaps the ability to potentially gain two free TLs in one turn makes it worth it?

While R5-K6 is certainly not amazing, I still think it's got its uses. The main problem is that it lacks reliability, however by maximising your chance of benefiting it can still be handy.

The key here is to put the Droid on Dutch Vander. Because Dutch's skill triggers every time he acquires a target lock, there's the potential for some good action efficiency.

Here are the number of actions you could potentially get with a BTL-A4 Dutch:

2 - 62.5% (Dutch TLs, passes one off, and R5-K6 fails)

4 - 23.4375% (Dutch TLs, passes one TL off, R5-K6 succeeds, Dutch TLs and passes one TL off, R5-K6 fails)

5 - 14.0625% (Dutch TLs, passes one TL off, R5-K6 succeeds, Dutch TLs and passes one TL off, R5-K6 succeeds, Dutch passes one TL off, and we'll assume Dutch then drops his final TL for a new one next turn)

That's an average of 2.89 actions a turn, or 0.89 extra compared to a base Dutch (If I've done my maths right - it's Friday!).

Of course there are some requirements for this - Dutch must have a target to shoot at, and one to three equal or lower PS wingmen in range 1-2 to benefit from TLs.

So will it win you games? Probably not. But can it be worthwhile? I'd say so.

And besides - just imagine the look on your opponent's face when you do pull off that 14% chance, and all of the attacks from your four-ship rebel squadron are target-locked when only one ship performed a TL in the first place!

The most effective way I have found to maximize your second shot is to take it. I'm not being sarcastic, the two-for-one shooting of the BTL-A4 doesn't beg for more actions, it begs for more shots. Even double-focus plus evade Soontir runs out of tokens in an awful hurry when defending himself against 2 Warthogs. Even a single Warthog can often land damage simply because Soontir only has one Evade to spread across both attacks.

Look at action economy over the entire turn, not just shooting. A Y-Wing doesn't need an action for defense, the utility of a focus there is very marginal and a Y-Wing is tough enough to survive several full hits. So a Warthog will have 1 action to use for 2 attacks. A PtL Interceptor will have 2 actions available, but has to use one of those for defense. This means that your Y-Wing has 1 action for 2 events, and an Interceptor has 2 actions for 3 events. That is nearly even already, but the consequences for a failed event are much more serious for the Interceptor than the Y-Wing. Add a second Warthog shooting and there is really no need for offensive actions from either of them in order to drop the Interceptor.

Not that quoting a mass murderer is the ideal way to prove a point, but quantity has a quality all its own.

R7-t1 is a very interesting combo

Blaster turret off Kyle/garvin for 2nd focus. Possibly with a squad leader or airen. Cracken for a target lock. If you're at range 1, that's essentially a cluster missile

It's been said elsewhere, but R3-A2 will be wonderful on a Warthog. Being able to dish out two stress tokens in a turn will be very powerful, especially when that second stress may come with an Ion token. Yes, you also double-stress a ship with only two native green maneuvers, but the Y-Wing's base dial is only slightly below average (every 2 maneuver, straights and banks for both 1s and 3s), and the double-stressed target won't be pulling off any fancy moves next turn either.

Updated the second post with the math. I for one was surprised with some of the results. While Predator turned out to be by far the best option, it does use your droid slot that could otherwise be used for R3-A2. The sad part is that the Y wing w/ Predator would LOVE to just completely stress himself at the expense of stressing everyone else.

One thing I forgot to mention that again works in Predator's favor, without the turret, the Y wing will be much more likely to do a K turn, at which point Predator still works, while none of the others do (well, R5-K6 and action sharing from Garven/Kyle still do).

Updated the second post with the math. I for one was surprised with some of the results. While Predator turned out to be by far the best option, it does use your droid slot that could otherwise be used for R3-A2. The sad part is that the Y wing w/ Predator would LOVE to just completely stress himself at the expense of stressing everyone else.

One thing I forgot to mention that again works in Predator's favor, without the turret, the Y wing will be much more likely to do a K turn, at which point Predator still works, while none of the others do (well, R5-K6 and action sharing from Garven/Kyle still do).

Would the R2-D6/Predator combination be worthwhile on anyone but the Gray Squadron Pilot?. Golds can't equip R2-D6 as their PS isn't high enough, and Predator's reroll has less value for Dutch's TL-based ability and Horton's R2 secondary weapon rerolls.

To echo what KO said, if you can get a second attack with an Ion Cannon Turret, it almost doubles your damage. This is a meta-wide average, and includes the chances of both the attacker and defender having a focus token on the second shot. And obviously Ion damage is capped at 1, but it still almost doubles your damage.

It gets even better with Scum R4 agro, but I have not specifically run those numbers yet.

Updated the second post with the math. I for one was surprised with some of the results. While Predator turned out to be by far the best option, it does use your droid slot that could otherwise be used for R3-A2. The sad part is that the Y wing w/ Predator would LOVE to just completely stress himself at the expense of stressing everyone else.

One thing I forgot to mention that again works in Predator's favor, without the turret, the Y wing will be much more likely to do a K turn, at which point Predator still works, while none of the others do (well, R5-K6 and action sharing from Garven/Kyle still do).

Would the R2-D6/Predator combination be worthwhile on anyone but the Gray Squadron Pilot?. Golds can't equip R2-D6 as their PS isn't high enough, and Predator's reroll has less value for Dutch's TL-based ability and Horton's R2 secondary weapon rerolls.

I've come to that same conclusion... Gray w/ R2-D6 + Predator + ICT + Seismic is something I'm excited about trying out. Haven't quite figured out how I'd run Dutch or Horton though. I might load up a Flechette on Horton to make use of R3.

Updated the second post with the math. I for one was surprised with some of the results. While Predator turned out to be by far the best option, it does use your droid slot that could otherwise be used for R3-A2. The sad part is that the Y wing w/ Predator would LOVE to just completely stress himself at the expense of stressing everyone else.

One thing I forgot to mention that again works in Predator's favor, without the turret, the Y wing will be much more likely to do a K turn, at which point Predator still works, while none of the others do (well, R5-K6 and action sharing from Garven/Kyle still do).

Would the R2-D6/Predator combination be worthwhile on anyone but the Gray Squadron Pilot?. Golds can't equip R2-D6 as their PS isn't high enough, and Predator's reroll has less value for Dutch's TL-based ability and Horton's R2 secondary weapon rerolls.

I've come to that same conclusion... Gray w/ R2-D6 + Predator + ICT + Seismic is something I'm excited about trying out. Haven't quite figured out how I'd run Dutch or Horton though. I might load up a Flechette on Horton to make use of R3.

I suppose this begs the follow-up question: while Predator definitely help the attack values, will it be worth the combined 6-point investment in upgrading from a BTL Gold with ICT to a BTL Gray with ICT, R2-D6 and Predator? There are some pros and cons, especially with PS3 Black Sun Enforcers poised to enter the meta.

one note to your calcuations:

you HAVE to use GREY sq to get the EPT. This adds another 2 pt cost to your calculations.

I'm pretty happy with the Predator idea. Good thread.

+1

Updated the second post with the math. I for one was surprised with some of the results. While Predator turned out to be by far the best option, it does use your droid slot that could otherwise be used for R3-A2. The sad part is that the Y wing w/ Predator would LOVE to just completely stress himself at the expense of stressing everyone else.

One thing I forgot to mention that again works in Predator's favor, without the turret, the Y wing will be much more likely to do a K turn, at which point Predator still works, while none of the others do (well, R5-K6 and action sharing from Garven/Kyle still do).

Would the R2-D6/Predator combination be worthwhile on anyone but the Gray Squadron Pilot?. Golds can't equip R2-D6 as their PS isn't high enough, and Predator's reroll has less value for Dutch's TL-based ability and Horton's R2 secondary weapon rerolls.

I've come to that same conclusion... Gray w/ R2-D6 + Predator + ICT + Seismic is something I'm excited about trying out. Haven't quite figured out how I'd run Dutch or Horton though. I might load up a Flechette on Horton to make use of R3.

Given Horton's range restriction he is almost better off without the title and throwing 2pt stresspedoes downrange with an ICT or BT for afterwards. Dutch seems tailor made for it though and I like the R5-K6 synergy. Dutch with ICT, title and R5-K6, supporting Horton with 2 stresspedoes, R3-A2 and ICT (for circle stressing his target after the torps are gone) throws out a lot of stress and ion effects at anything in the forward arc and has the guts to do it whilst taking fire. But thats a lot of points and will be a little weak on support at 100pts.

Edited for grammar..doh!

I will try to rephrase. The best way to maximize the effect of a follow up Ion shot is to increase the number of shots taken, not to increase accuracy. The two for one shooting is an enormous advantage in effective action economy, not a disadvantage as many have erroneously claimed. You build upon that economy most effectively by multiplying it, not by adding a separate action source. On that second shot the difference between a net 1 hit and a net 3 hits is.... nothing. The secondary shot from a Warthog is equally effective regardless of how many hits you achieve on that shot, which makes accuracy correction far less valuable than it would be for a "regular" shot.

Predator costs 4 points minimum, but realistically it will cost 6 points (because you have to equip it on a Grey). It also occupies your droid slot, which could otherwise have R3A2 for a dramatic increase in control. You are almost certainly better off using those 6 points towards another ship/gun to bring to bear, and/or R2 astromechs or any other combination of things that simply allows you to make those follow up shots more often.

Rolling more dice is better than modifying fewer dice.

How crucial do you think engine upgrade will be for a "warthog" to have an engine upgrade? given it's poor dial, and now lack of a turret, how do we ensure we keep the warthog pointed at the target?

R2 and engine upgrade are the obvious choices, I also like R7-T1 on any y-wing, especially dutch. Unhinged would be a good option for scum perhaps.

But, I like the idea of predator to enhance both shots, so that means my astro slot is full. Now engine upgrade would seem to be the only remaining answer. Oh, I also love the stress bot on a warthog idea, so again the mech slot is gone, and now no EPT (for rebels at least)

I think the stress bot might be the single best upgrade to keep the warthog's target in Arc.

Well X-wings seem to manage OK. They've got more green and less red, but the actual manoeuvres are identical.

Also if you're using R3-A2 on an A4 for a double stress then you can pretty much kiss goodbye to any chance of using an engine upgrade!

How crucial do you think engine upgrade will be for a "warthog" to have an engine upgrade? given it's poor dial, and now lack of a turret, how do we ensure we keep the warthog pointed at the target?

This is going to be a very important consideration with the likely return of the at least ps6 interceptor with the release of Autothrusters. I'm interested to see how well the Y will be able to keep up with the more arc dodgy ships.

Honestly, what this title (and turret ships in general) need is a legitimate 3 dice turret option other than the blaster turret. Either errata the blaster turret to not have to spend a focus (akin to Prockets) or give us another option.

I think Dutch with R7-T1 is best. The Boost action you can get is probably going to push you into Range 2. You also get a TL for your efforts. Not only that, but you then get to share that TL with someone.

I used to think R7-T1 was the business and kitted out Dutch with it and experimental interface (though I was using Autoblaster). The combo is poor. Destressing the Y- wing is actually pretty hard, and the Warthog really needs to be able to k- turn to keep pressure on. The other downside to R7-T1 is that it only works when the enemy ship is facing you. If you get into a chase with a Y-wing it is useless and the engine is much better.

I like Gold with ion or auto and engine (either 27 or 24 points depending turret). Surprisingly the Autoblaster turret really affects the way your opponent plays, even if you don't get to shoot it.

Gold with Ion and R3-A2 is a bit of a no brainer awesome ship and at 25 points makes a good add to almost any squad. But you have to be pretty careful about double stressing and only do it if you really need to. It will get out flown by every other ship in the game. As Kinetic Operator mentioned you need to keep shooting with it and having the K-turn available is pretty important for that IMO.

I like the idea of Predator but the Gray tax is a bit hard to stomach, and all but useless on Dutch and Horton.

If only Rebels could use ruthlessness...

And I will probably play the 5 Gold with Autos to death when I can. Though I call Golds with autoblasters Warpigs (from Generation Kill) to differentiate them from the more traditional Warthogs with Ion Turrets.

Don't forget the R4 Aggromech for a Scum Hog, which I can foresee working very well (yes you must choose to give up the unhinged for it though), a focus and maybe a TL from the last round and you can just grind away on something.

I think people are putting way too much confidence in the attack twice ability. You don't see too many cluster missiles in the game and gunner is popular because they are often equipped to 3 attack ships and you can also pair them with targeting computers (on shuttles and phantoms) to get a target lock if your first one misses. You can't do any of that with a Y-wing. The R4-agromech may be able to replicate something similar but you would be spending a focus action for a target lock on a blaster turret or spending a focus token on 0 focus results on the 2-3 attack dice for all others.