Hi

I was wondering if Cumbersome is cumulative?

'Cause Cumbersome items can only be handled if you have a equal or greater brawn value than cumbersome rating.

So e.g if i want to dual wield a Ryyk Blade in Both hands, do i need a Cumbersome of 3 or 6 (3+3)?

In your example, I believe a Ryyk blade is meant to be wielded two-handed, so I personally would rule that yes, a Brawn value of 6 would allow you to one-hand a Ryyk in each hand.

In your example, I believe a Ryyk blade is meant to be wielded two-handed, so I personally would rule that yes, a Brawn value of 6 would allow you to one-hand a Ryyk in each hand.

Two-handed? Am i wrong but isn't this a ryyk blade: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ryyk_blade

For me it looks like a one handed So one for each hand. The Cumbersome on this item is because its a wookie weapon?

So for normal people you need a Cumb6 to wield 2 weapons?

But aside this item, what if i have e.g a Ranged Weapon with Cumb3 and want to carry another meele weapon with cumbersome 3. Do i need Brawn 6 or 3

So in general Yes, Cumbersome is cumulative?

I'd say that Cumbersome values aren't meant to be cumulative.

After all, that's what Encumbrance is for, the mass/weight of a bunch of items adding up. Cumbersome is more of the "how hard is this to wield for those without exceptional strength?"

So if you're dual-wielding Ryyk Blades, then you'd just need a Brawn of 3 to avoid the penalties from Cumbersome. Which if you're a Wookiee that plans on routinely getting into melee combat, you'll met that requirement no problem.

I'd say that Cumbersome values aren't meant to be cumulative.

After all, that's what Encumbrance is for, the mass/weight of a bunch of items adding up. Cumbersome is more of the "how hard is this to wield for those without exceptional strength?"

So if you're dual-wielding Ryyk Blades, then you'd just need a Brawn of 3 to avoid the penalties from Cumbersome. Which if you're a Wookiee that plans on routinely getting into melee combat, you'll met that requirement no problem.

I thought this too, but then the heavy pack (with a Cumbersome of 2) doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense. Why call out the Cumb rating on something that's only going to effect the weakest of characters? It essentially replaces the standard pack for a sizable percentage of player characters. But likewise... Brawn 6 is pretty hardcore for a pair of swords...

So I'm thinking that it might be like Soak and Cumb from different sources stack. That way a pair of blades is usable, but probably not with other Cumbersome items...

Better solution?

This thread reply #6 has FFG's answer to your question.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100338-does-cumbersome-from-multiple-items-stack/?hl=cumbersom#entry999833

Thanks Greg! So, the rating doesn't stack, but the penalty does.

So 2 Ryyk blades total at cumbersome 3, but a Brawn 2 character trying to use them would increase the difficulty once for each blade....

Devil's advocate: The post Greg referenced talks about the stacking penalties of a duffel, a backpack, and a heavy blaster rifle, but an argument can be made that the penalty for using two Ryyk blades (cumbersome 3) with Brawn 2 would not stack based on the wording of the two-weapon combat rules.

1. Compare skills and charactersitics used for the two weapons: Both Brawn and Melee. No issue.

2. Compare the difficulty of the two checks and use the higher: Both Melee check (average), increased to Hard for the difference between Brawn and Cumbersome rating.

3. Difficulty is increased by one to Daunting since the skills used in the combined check are the same.

This post about two weapon combat states that bonuses and penalties from the second weapon do not apply to the initial pool–granted, it refers only to boost and setback, not difficulty dice, but the argument can be made that this ruling applies.

Note: this means you cannot use the advantage granted by the second Ryyk blade's Superior quality unti you activate the second hit with two advantage, if you weren't aware.

All this being said, I still agree with the logic of applying the penalties for both blades and making it a Formidable check.

Bottom line: If you want to dual wield Ryyk blades, hit the gym!

Devil's advocate: The post Greg referenced talks about the stacking penalties of a duffel, a backpack, and a heavy blaster rifle, but an argument can be made that the penalty for using two Ryyk blades (cumbersome 3) with Brawn 2 would not stack based on the wording of the two-weapon combat rules.

1. Compare skills and charactersitics used for the two weapons: Both Brawn and Melee. No issue.

2. Compare the difficulty of the two checks and use the higher: Both Melee check (average), increased to Hard for the difference between Brawn and Cumbersome rating.

3. Difficulty is increased by one to Daunting since the skills used in the combined check are the same.

This post about two weapon combat states that bonuses and penalties from the second weapon do not apply to the initial pool–granted, it refers only to boost and setback, not difficulty dice, but the argument can be made that this ruling applies.

Note: this means you cannot use the advantage granted by the second Ryyk blade's Superior quality unti you activate the second hit with two advantage, if you weren't aware.

All this being said, I still agree with the logic of applying the penalties for both blades and making it a Formidable check.

Bottom line: If you want to dual wield Ryyk blades, hit the gym!

Yes but the Two Weapon Combat rule wording assumes you are following all the rest of the RAW. A weapon that is classified as Two Handed would require two hands to wield so the Two Weapon Combat rule would not apply and is not written in such a way as to include what the OT desires. So if one is going to allow the use of two Two Handed weapons it's probably best to bend/break as few rules as necessary to do so. I say if you want to play Munchkin then suck up that extra Cumbersome penalty...

Devil's advocate: The post Greg referenced talks about the stacking penalties of a duffel, a backpack, and a heavy blaster rifle, but an argument can be made that the penalty for using two Ryyk blades (cumbersome 3) with Brawn 2 would not stack based on the wording of the two-weapon combat rules.

1. Compare skills and charactersitics used for the two weapons: Both Brawn and Melee. No issue.

2. Compare the difficulty of the two checks and use the higher: Both Melee check (average), increased to Hard for the difference between Brawn and Cumbersome rating.

3. Difficulty is increased by one to Daunting since the skills used in the combined check are the same.

This post about two weapon combat states that bonuses and penalties from the second weapon do not apply to the initial pool–granted, it refers only to boost and setback, not difficulty dice, but the argument can be made that this ruling applies.

Note: this means you cannot use the advantage granted by the second Ryyk blade's Superior quality unti you activate the second hit with two advantage, if you weren't aware.

All this being said, I still agree with the logic of applying the penalties for both blades and making it a Formidable check.

Bottom line: If you want to dual wield Ryyk blades, hit the gym!

Yes but the Two Weapon Combat rule wording assumes you are following all the rest of the RAW. A weapon that is classified as Two Handed would require two hands to wield so the Two Weapon Combat rule would not apply and is not written in such a way as to include what the OT desires. So if one is going to allow the use of two Two Handed weapons it's probably best to bend/break as few rules as necessary to do so. I say if you want to play Munchkin then suck up that extra Cumbersome penalty...

First, I repeat that this was merely a devil's advocate opinion supported by the RAW and the fact that the combination of cumbersome and two weapon combat has not been specifically addressed. I'd like to call attention that I actually do support the idea of combining the penalties for cumbersome.

RAW, the Ryyk blade is not a two handed weapon. Looking at DC, nowhere does it say that it requires two hands, unlike the Therm-Ax and the Vibro-Greatsword. These entries explicitly state that "[Weapon X] requires two hands to wield" as the last sentence. Following that same pattern in CRB, the Vibro-Ax, Force Pike, and Gaffi stick also state as the last sentence "[Weapon X] requires two hands to wield." No such entry exists under the description of the Ryyk blade, so the weapon can be used in one hand without bending/breaking rules whatsoever.

Edit: Unless there is an errata that I am not aware of.

If a two-handed weapon has the Cumbersome quality, then the point is moot, since you are only using one of them. If you're using two-weapon combat with two weapons that both have Cumbersome, then it's also moot, since bonuses and penalties that affect the dice pool are not applied for the second weapon (unless it's something like Superior that adds an Advantage; the Advantage is added, but only if the second weapon is activated). Even if you go against RAW and use a two-handed weapon in each hand, it still wouldn't apply since, again, penalties and bonuses of the second weapon aren't applied to the dice pool when using two-weapon combat.

What you could also do is wield a non-Cumbersome weapon in your primary hand, and a Cumbersome weapon in your second hand. When using two-weapon combat, the Cumbersome rating would never come into play

Edit: Ignore that last part. Since the difficulty is based on the weapon with the highest difficulty, the Cumbersome penalty would apply, since it adds to difficulty. But since difficulty is based on the "highest" of the two weapons, Cumbersome will only ever be applied once, and that's assuming that the Cumbersome weapon provides the highest difficulty.

If a two-handed weapon has the Cumbersome quality, then the point is moot, since you are only using one of them. If you're using two-weapon combat with two weapons that both have Cumbersome, then it's also moot, since bonuses and penalties that affect the dice pool are not applied for the second weapon (unless it's something like Superior that adds an Advantage; the Advantage is added, but only if the second weapon is activated). Even if you go against RAW and use a two-handed weapon in each hand, it still wouldn't apply since, again, penalties and bonuses of the second weapon aren't applied to the dice pool when using two-weapon combat.

What you could also do is wield a non-Cumbersome weapon in your primary hand, and a Cumbersome weapon in your second hand. When using two-weapon combat, the Cumbersome rating would never come into play

EDIT

Or perhaps I am confusing this with the targeting rules and autofire (you have to target the most difficult target). I'm away from book.

If a two-handed weapon has the Cumbersome quality, then the point is moot, since you are only using one of them. If you're using two-weapon combat with two weapons that both have Cumbersome, then it's also moot, since bonuses and penalties that affect the dice pool are not applied for the second weapon (unless it's something like Superior that adds an Advantage; the Advantage is added, but only if the second weapon is activated). Even if you go against RAW and use a two-handed weapon in each hand, it still wouldn't apply since, again, penalties and bonuses of the second weapon aren't applied to the dice pool when using two-weapon combat.

What you could also do is wield a non-Cumbersome weapon in your primary hand, and a Cumbersome weapon in your second hand. When using two-weapon combat, the Cumbersome rating would never come into play

The rules also say whatever weapon results in the "most difficult" roll must be used as the primary weapon. This would mean you would have to use the cumbersome weapon as your primary.

EDIT

Or perhaps I am confusing this with the targeting rules and autofire (you have to target the most difficult target). I'm away from book.

Yeah, that's Autofire. With two-weapon combat, you get to specify which weapon is your primary.

I think Rowdy is right. P. 211: "He then compares the difficulty of the two combat checks he would make with each of his two weapons to hit his target, and selects the check with the higher base difficulty." If you have Brawn 2, a vibro-knife in one hand (Average check), and a ryyk blade in the other (Hard check), you would have to use the Hard ryyk blade combat check and add one more to the difficulty since the same skill is used.

Yeah, I think you're right, I haven't read it in awhile I think you use the lowest skill/characteristic for your positive dice, and the highest difficulty for your negative dice.

Still, it'll only be applied once, so it's not cumulative.

Yeah, I think you're right, I haven't read it in awhile I think you use the lowest skill/characteristic for your positive dice, and the highest difficulty for your negative dice.

Still, it'll only be applied once, so it's not cumulative.

However it seems you choose the difficulty regardless of which weapon is primary. So you could still use the weapon that has accurate against the difficulty of the non-accurate cumbersome weapon.

Yeah, I think you're right, I haven't read it in awhile I think you use the lowest skill/characteristic for your positive dice, and the highest difficulty for your negative dice.

Still, it'll only be applied once, so it's not cumulative.

However it seems you choose the difficulty regardless of which weapon is primary. So you could still use the weapon that has accurate against the difficulty of the non-accurate cumbersome weapon.

You are correct. It would also be a good idea to choose a primary weapon with Advantage granting attachments (Superior, Laser Sight, etc.) to increase the odds of activating the secondary weapon.

Actually I'm going to disagree with Oggdude(and others) about this. The Cumbersome Penalty is, as Sam says, cumulative. The Two Weapon Combat rule only says that you take the lowest skill check, Penalties are applied to the roll after you determine the Skills not to the Skills themselves. So if you would normally gain a Penalty to your Roll for using an item then it applies, if you are using two of those items you gain the Penalty to your roll from each of them.

Again, I agree with adding the cumbersome penalties for the two weapons, but...

...Penalties are applied to the roll after you determine the Skills not to the Skills themselves...

To be correct, it doesn't say this. It says "He then compares the difficulty of the two combat checks he would make with each of his two weapons to hit his target, and selects the check with the higher difficulty." So if it is a hard check with one hand and hard check with the other, it's the same difficulty.

Edit: What I said above is not to refute Greg's point about stacking cumbersome penalties. It is only a clarification about Two Weapon combat. Another example, a PC is firing a pair of blasters while engaged. The final Difficult is Hard (Easy, +1 for using Ranged [Light] weapon, +1 for using the same skill), not Daunting (Easy, +2 for using two Ranged [Light] weapons, +1 for using the same skill).

Actually I'm going to disagree with Oggdude(and others) about this. The Cumbersome Penalty is, as Sam says, cumulative. The Two Weapon Combat rule only says that you take the lowest skill check, Penalties are applied to the roll after you determine the Skills not to the Skills themselves. So if you would normally gain a Penalty to your Roll for using an item then it applies, if you are using two of those items you gain the Penalty to your roll from each of them.

No one said this wasn't true. If your Brawn is 4 and you are using two weapons that are Cumbersome 3, you get no penalties (assuming they can both still be used with one hand normally). However if your Brawn is 2, both penalties would kick in.

Others were talking about using, say, a vibroknife in one hand and a Ryyk blade in the other with a Brawn rating of 2. Originally it was stated that if you select the vibroknife as your primary weapon you would not have to apply the penalty of the cumbersome Ryyk blade. We have since realized this is incorrect. You can still construct the yellow, green, and blue dice off the vibroknife, but you would use the difficulty of the cumbersome Ryyk blade and increase it again for dual wielding.

These are the steps you go through using two-weapon combat:

1. Choose one weapon as "Primary" and the other as "Secondary"
2. Determine ability dice: Compare the skills for the two weapons. Use the lowest skill rank AND the lowest characteristic value of the skills used for both the Primary and Secondary weapon. Ex: Primary weapon is a blaster, secondary is a vibroknife. You have Agility 3, Brawn 2, Ranged Light 1, Melee 2. The lowest skill is Ranged Light and the lowest characteristic is Brawn. Since this is 1/2, you'll use 1 yellow and 1 green.
3. Determine the difficulty dice: Compare the difficulty of the Primary and Secondary weapons. Use the one that would add the most difficulty dice. If the two skills are the same, increase difficulty by one. If different, increase by two.
4. Apply any changes to the dice pool as determined by the Primary weapon. This would include any boosts, setbacks, upgrades, advantage/threat, whatever. The Secondary weapon is ignored for this purpose.
5. Apply any other changes due to talents or abilities, but only if they apply to the Primary weapon.
6. Make any miscellaneous changes as required (for instance, if the enemy has the Adversary talent, you'd apply this now).
7. Make the roll. If you net at least one success, your Primary weapon hits as normal.
8. If you net at least two advantages, or a triumph, you can use them to activate the Secondary weapon and hit again. The weapon will hit for its base damage, plus the successes already rolled.
9. If the Secondary weapon is activated, you will then get any benefits, such as added advantages or damage bonuses, that the Secondary weapon provides. This does NOT include any bonus or setback dice provided by the Secondary weapon. Damage bonuses from the Secondary weapon apply only to the Secondary weapon. Advantages gained from the Secondary weapon can be added to however many advantages that you have remaining from the dice roll. These can be used to activate qualities for either weapon. The same goes for rolled triumph; it can be used on either attack.

In the case of Cumbersome, it isn't necessarily even applied. It all depends on which weapon contributes the highest difficulty. If both your weapons have Cumbersome, then the respective Cumbersome values are used individually to determine the difficulty of the rolls, along with any other penalties.

As an example, say you have a blaster rifle in one hand and a melee weapon with Cumbersome 3 in the other hand, and you're attacking an engaged target. For the blaster rifle, base difficulty is 1, +2 for attacking an engaged target with ranged heavy, or 3 purples. Let's say you have a brawn of 2. For the melee weapon, base difficulty is 2, +1 for the Cumbersome. This also indicates 3 purples.

So, in this example, it doesn't matter if you have Cumbersome or not, you're still getting 3 purples, +2 more for the two skills being different.

Now, let's say you're using two melee weapons, one with Cumbersome 3, the other with Cumbersome 2. You still have a brawn of 2. For the first weapon, the base difficulty is 2, +1 for the Cumbersome, or three purples. For the second weapon, the base is 2, but you have the required brawn, so the second Cumbersome doesn't add anything else. You'll use two purples for the second weapon. That means the attack uses three purples, which is the higher value for the Primary weapon, plus one more for the standard two-weapon penalty.

I see no place where it would be appropriate, or even make sense, to "add up" the Cumbersome ratings. This is a weapon quality, it's not encumbrance. Qualities apply to the weapon that has them. You wouldn't "add up" Vicious, or Pierce, or Accurate; it just wouldn't make any sense. Each of those apply only to hits with that weapon (or with Accurate, only if it is your Primary weapon). So why would Cumbersome be special and be added together?

I have a feeling people are somehow relating "Cumbersome" with "Encumbrance" in their head, which is why they're trying to add them together Weapon qualities just don't work that way.

Oggdude, I think this is why it might be added together. "For each point of Brawn by which the character is deficient, he must increase the difficulty of all checks made while using the weapon by one." The argument is that if a Brawn 2 PC has a cumbersome 3 weapon in each hand, he is actively using it. Therefore, each one affects all checks, including when determining the base difficulty of the weapon in the other hand (step 3 above). The dev answer from Sam referenced by FuriousGreg in previous posts stated that if you are wearing a cumbersome backpack and shooting a cumbersome rifle with insufficient Brawn, the penalties stack but not the ratings.

Following this logic, the Ryyk blade example is Average [2 dice] +2 for Cumbersome penalties since both items are being used, +1 for same skill–Daunting [5 dice].

I don't think anyone is confusing it with Encumbrance. If a cumbersome weapon is being carried, its penalty is not applied. I think it relates to how strict your intepretation of "all checks." Because of this wording, Cumbersome may be the only weapon quality of a secondary weapon that affects the primary weapon, too.

Let's say you're using two melee weapons, one with Cumbersome 3, the other with Cumbersome 2. You still have a brawn of 2. For the first weapon, the base difficulty is 2, or two purples. For the second weapon, the base is also 2, so two purples for the second weapon as well. That means the base attack uses two purples. At this point, you would apply penalties for any Cumbersome items. Since one item has a Cumbersome quality of 3, you would add one more purple to the difficulty (new total of three purple). Finally, since both weapons use the same skill, the difficulty is increased by one more, for a total of four purple dice.

1. Choose one weapon as "Primary" and the other as "Secondary"
   
2. Determine ability dice: Compare the skills for the two weapons. Use the lowest skill rank AND the lowest characteristic value of the skills used for both the Primary and Secondary weapon. Ex: Primary weapon is a blaster, secondary is a vibroknife. You have Agility 3, Brawn 2, Ranged Light 1, Melee 2. The lowest skill is Ranged Light and the lowest characteristic is Brawn. Since this is 1/2, you'll use 1 yellow and 1 green.
   
3. Determine the base difficulty dice: Compare the difficulty of the Primary and Secondary weapons (ignoring, for now, any Cumbersome qualities belonging to either weapon). Use the one that would add the most difficulty dice.
   
4. Apply any changes to the dice pool as determined by the Primary weapon. This would include any boosts, setbacks, upgrades, advantage/threat, whatever. The Secondary weapon is ignored for this purpose.
   
5. Apply any other changes due to talents or abilities, but only if they apply to the Primary weapon.
   
6. Adjust the difficulty for any Cumbersome items that are currently being utilized by the attacker. Each Cumbersome item is applied separately, but any penalties accrued should be cumulatively applied.
   
7. Make any miscellaneous changes as required (for instance, if the enemy has the Adversary talent, you'd apply this now).
   
8. Apply the two-weapon penalty. If both weapons use the same skill, increase difficulty by one. If each weapon uses different skills, increase difficulty by two.
   
9. Make the roll. If you net at least one success, your Primary weapon hits as normal.
   
10. If you net at least two advantages, or a triumph, you can use them to activate the Secondary weapon and hit again. The weapon will hit for its base damage, plus the successes already rolled.
    
11. If the Secondary weapon is activated, you will then get any benefits, such as added advantages or damage bonuses, that the Secondary weapon provides. This does NOT include any bonus or setback dice provided by the Secondary weapon. Damage bonuses from the Secondary weapon apply only to the Secondary weapon. Advantages gained from the Secondary weapon can be added to however many advantages that you have remaining from the dice roll. These can be used to activate qualities for either weapon. The same goes for rolled triumph; it can be used on either attack.
    

And FuriousGreg breathes a huge sigh of relief as he brings the last of the hold-outs into the fold....sometimes you have to be patient with us as we work through our own processes.

And FuriousGreg breathes a huge sigh of relief as he brings the last of the hold-outs into the fold....sometimes you have to be patient with us as we work through our own processes.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, not entirely Cumbersome (or Unwieldy) does not stack. It's effects are cumulative, but the quality values are not added together. The big eye-opener was that Cumbersome should not be considered a weapon-specific quality when it comes to figuring out the difficulty of a two-weapon attack. It should be applied afterwards, just like it is applied to all skill checks.