That example highlights the difference between a game rule - getting stressed from the K-Turn - and a card effect, Rebel Captive.

So you're saying where the rule is written changes how mandatory an effect is?

Because it's written in the rule book means it's more mandatory then if it's written on a card?

You're going to need to provide a ruling of some sort to back that up.

It's not an argument, Vanor - it's my opinion. I don't need to back up my opinion, unless I claim it is fact.

Permit me to explain by example:

If I'm playing against you in a competitive tournament, I will not remind you about your Rebel Captive (I don't agree with it, in principle, but FFG have stated that it would be a missed opportunity). You will need to state its effect when I target your ship and tell me to apply the stress. However, I will remind you if you forget to roll an extra defense dice at Range 3 when I am shooting.

I see a distinction between game rules and pilot/upgrade card effects. Other people will see and do things differently.

Most people participating in this thread have agreed that there are shades of grey with regards to what is expected. Similarly, TOs will have their own (different) opinions. We would all welcome some clarity from FFG, at some point in the future.

The rules of the game are fairly simple and should be followed to the best of both player's ability. Each named pilot card, upgrade card, and damage card are merely adding their own little rule to the overall game, so there's absolutely no reason they should be treated any differently from the rules in the book.

Mandatory or optional, if it's a missed opportunity, each one has a point of no return and you can only rewind the game so far. But to try and say that a rulebook effect is more important than a card effect is just ridiculous. Each one is a game effect that may or may not have an overall impact on the game being played.

It may not be as 'ridiculous' as you think, Parravon (strong words for a discussion, mate).

All competitive X-Wing players should know the game rules. However, the onus is on the particular player to know his squadron. The missed opportunity clause means that you do not have to assist your opponent in beating you, when they continually forget what their squadron's abilities can do.

A couple of years ago, in MagicTG, there was an upheaval in how players were expected to remind their opponents of their triggers. Essentially, competitive players were finding it rather dull that they had to help their opponent beat them, by being required to point out their missed triggers.

WizardsOTC agreed, and the requirement for always pointing out your opponent's missed triggers was changed. Wizards felt, that under some circumstances, you should not have to help your opponent beat you. Your opponent has to play their deck to the best (or worst) of their ability. Both players still have a responsibility to maintain the rules of the game.

I would like to see effects such as Rebel Captive become mandatory and monitored by both players, with an opportunity to correct the game state if missed. However, with the current rules, if it's not pointed out when it is supposed to happen, it will be a missed opportunity.

Again, I'm not here to argue. It's a discussion and that's my opinion. There are definitely multiple points of view on this topic, which is fine. I'm happy to play it however FFG rule it.

Okay, so I just found this in the FAQ:

• If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time.

This rule doesn't seem to mention anything about optional effects or using abilities or performing actions, it specifically says declare a game effect during a specific timing window.

I feel like Reel Captive pretty clearly falls into that category as a game effect that has a specific timing window. Does this change anyone's answer?

It is a game effect with a specific timing window, but I'm not sure it's something that you "declare". The term is never strongly defined, but the rules seem to use it in the standard sense - the player announcing a decision.

The question in my mind is whether Rebel Captive is something that needs to be declared, or if it just happens. There's also a question of who "declares" a mandatory effect. Think about critical damage effects. If I have a critical effect (like Minor Hull Breach), is it up to me to declare it? It's an ability on my ship, after all, so you can't "declare" it for me any more than you could declare that I'm using the action to fix a Damaged Sensor Array. What if I conveniently forget a lot? Heck, what if I just refuse to declare it? If I just sit there with my mouth shut and flip my next dial, is the opportunity past?

I think you're looking for a worst-case reading on this, but I think you're a long way from having the only possible interpretation on it.

How do you forget to draw damage cards? It's like forgetting to roll attack dice. It's an integral part of the combat process.

How do you forget to draw damage cards? It's like forgetting to roll attack dice. It's an integral part of the combat process.

I've had it happen in (rarely, of course) where both my opponent and I realized the number of damage cards on the ships were wrong, Maybe it was due to a miscount, maybe shields got pulled and then the player got distracted and forgot the damage card, who knows. It's the not unlike rolling the wrong number of dice.

Okay, so I just found this in the FAQ:

• If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time.

This rule doesn't seem to mention anything about optional effects or using abilities or performing actions, it specifically says declare a game effect during a specific timing window.

I feel like Reel Captive pretty clearly falls into that category as a game effect that has a specific timing window. Does this change anyone's answer?

The example given here is still an optional one though (swarm tactics)- declaring an optional effect is not the same as following the rules for a mandatory effect. I've reread the rules and FAQ, and I can't find anything that convinces me one way or the other what is supposed to happen if a mandatory effect is missed.

All competitive X-Wing players should know the game rules. However, the onus is on the particular player to know his squadron. The missed opportunity clause means that you do not have to assist your opponent in beating you, when they continually forget what their squadron's abilities can do.

And if they continually forget their abilities like Daredevil's damage check, or the stress from PtL? Is it solely a controller's responsibility to remember those, as well? What if it's PtL on Soontir Fel? Is enforcement of mandatory effects solely the responsibility of whichever player would benefit? Does my responsibility to declare my Rebel Captive change if it's Farlander who's attacking me?

Even apart from what a miserable play environment that would create, the FAQ entry at hand isn't phrased that way. It relates the declaration solely to the owner, which doesn't fit the "I have to remember to activate your bad stuff."

There's also a big open question there with parts of abilities. I declare that I'm using Push the Limit. Do I also declare that I'm gaining the stress? If you're going to try and leverage the "declare" as applying to every game effect, it has to apply to EVERY game effect. But the idea that I declare Push the Limit, then declare that I'm giving myself one stress, and if I happen to forget to declare the stress it counts as a "missed opportunity"...?

Lacking defined game terms for some of this stuff, it just feels like it's well outside the normal definitions. Few players would consider the destruction of their ship an "opportunity", but that's exactly the result if I forget to roll damage, and I can't imagine anything but strange looks if I said "I'm declaring that I'll take the stress from Push the Limit." TVBoy declared the negative effect issue fixed because it says the opponent has to consent - but "consent" is an approval or disapproval or a proposal, it doesn't initiate anything on its own.

All the way up and down this thing, people are coming up with some rather creative definitions for standard words. Whether you call that an argument or just an opinion, it's a troubling one that people should evaluate before deciding how much weight to give it.

This and other rules need to applied in a tournament situation. And in the heat of battle with nerves and serious competition people are not going always going to be helpful.

Most of the time I often just take what happens for granted eg put a stress on my ship when I shoot at a rebel captive first etc. But when there are mistakes there needs to be some timing point when missed opportunities is applied. I would thought in the Rebel Captive case it would after then next attack but not so sure now. looking at it, it is really no different to a kturn or normal other effect. If there was say an end of turn limit to remember then a few problems arise like forgetting to roll and extra dice at range one or extra evade at range 3 etc. It starts to get very complex.

I remember watching a tournament final and one of the players was reminded about rebel captive by an onlooker. The opponent was very annoyed at this even enough to put him off his game and lose.

After gaming X-Wing for 14+ hours you tend to forget things.

I've had the Rebel Captive trigger pointed out to me by someone in the crowd (high five guys!) several times now.

It IS an odd trigger, both for you and for your opponent.

I also agree that when the dials are revealed, it is too late to "go back" and add the token.

Several games I play have a 'clean up phase' after all the action before the start of the next turn /round. Once you've gone past the clean up phase thats it, if an effect is missed then its missed.

(What this does is give you 2-3 mins to make sure the right models have the right tokens next to them.. it also gives you time to go oh hang on I had a RC on this craft so X should have a stress marker.)

Ok I realise this is not covered in the rules but does make sense to put in for Tournment play

Because I tape most of my games for youtube I have the advantage of looking back and seeing all the mistakes in the game. I lost a tournament once because I flicked a shield token off my ship card causing it to die sooner. Forgot to roll a extra green dice for range and forgot about a crit I could have resolved sooner and had a better attack. if those mistakes were not made and we were both keeping a closer eye on it I would have won. Now do I take this video to the TO or my opponent and demand the prize for first place? or just suck it up and realise I missed the opportunity to win?

As the rules are its a case of missed opportunity on my part for not paying better attention and I believe the same applies to Rebel Captive if its missed and your moved on to ravelling dials then you just need to suck it up and remember next time.

In a competition you should not expect your opponent to help you win

Drawing a line between the mandatory effect if Rebel Captive and the mandatory effect of being at Range 1 is folly. Both must happen. There is no option to forget a die or forget the stress. There is no reason to treat the two differently.

Because I tape most of my games for youtube I have the advantage of looking back and seeing all the mistakes in the game. I lost a tournament once because I flicked a shield token off my ship card causing it to die sooner. Forgot to roll a extra green dice for range and forgot about a crit I could have resolved sooner and had a better attack. if those mistakes were not made and we were both keeping a closer eye on it I would have won. Now do I take this video to the TO or my opponent and demand the prize for first place? or just suck it up and realise I missed the opportunity to win?

As the rules are its a case of missed opportunity on my part for not paying better attention and I believe the same applies to Rebel Captive if its missed and your moved on to ravelling dials then you just need to suck it up and remember next time.

In a competition you should not expect your opponent to help you win

Typically "in-Game" core rules effects that are detrimental are usually picked up by both players, and if one particular player seems to noticeably "forget" to place stress down after K-Turning on a regular basis it becomes quite obvious.

the problem begins where you have negative effects generated by one player that effect their opponents ships. the worst offenders are passive effects or triggered effects, i.e. ones that aren't specifically activated by a player at the time.

The worst ones are:

Rebel Captive (Triggered)

Wedge Antilles (Passive)

Carnor Jax (Passive)

I play wedge on a regular basis and have to constantly remind my opponent about his effect before I roll even my dice.

Players are mentally trained to some extent to look out for negative effects that impact their opponent (red manoeuvres, PTL, moving through or onto asteroids).

what they are not intuitively looking for are non-core rules effects that are detrimental to themselves that they do not control.

I'm personally of the opinion that core rules effects should be maintained at all costs, if you did a k-turn the turn before and it has only just been picked up now you didn't put a stress token down, too bad put the stress down, regardless of whether your next move is red or not.

Ensuring effects brought into the game by your opponent (i.e. Rebel Captive) are enforced should not be up to you to enforce.

I would however suggest that in future, not that FFG will read this comment, that all pilot abilities and upgrade cards that do have a negative effect on your opponent be optional abilities, then this kind of discussion goes away.

Typically "in-Game" core rules effects that are detrimental are usually picked up by both players, and if one particular player seems to noticeably "forget" to place stress down after K-Turning on a regular basis it becomes quite obvious.

the problem begins where you have negative effects generated by one player that effect their opponents ships. the worst offenders are passive effects or triggered effects, i.e. ones that aren't specifically activated by a player at the time.

The worst ones are:

Rebel Captive (Triggered)

Wedge Antilles (Passive)

Carnor Jax (Passive)

I play wedge on a regular basis and have to constantly remind my opponent about his effect before I roll even my dice.

Players are mentally trained to some extent to look out for negative effects that impact their opponent (red manoeuvres, PTL, moving through or onto asteroids).

what they are not intuitively looking for are non-core rules effects that are detrimental to themselves that they do not control.

I'm personally of the opinion that core rules effects should be maintained at all costs, if you did a k-turn the turn before and it has only just been picked up now you didn't put a stress token down, too bad put the stress down, regardless of whether your next move is red or not.

Ensuring effects brought into the game by your opponent (i.e. Rebel Captive) are enforced should not be up to you to enforce.

I would however suggest that in future, not that FFG will read this comment, that all pilot abilities and upgrade cards that do have a negative effect on your opponent be optional abilities, then this kind of discussion goes away.

Honestly, it's far more logical, IMO, to simply enforce things that are automatic provided they don't require a rewinding of the game state when the error was discovered.

Honestly, it's far more logical, IMO, to simply enforce things that are automatic provided they don't require a rewinding of the game state when the error was discovered.

Firstly, most if not all of this discussion is aimed at how to resolve the situation only if discovered after the point of no return has already passed, i.e. halfway through the movement phase where ships have moved already etc. so this is somewhat of a moot point.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't work for multiple reasons. Should I be able to choose not to enforce Rebel Captive affecting Soontir or Keyan? How about Ruthlessness or Dead Man's Switch? There are situations where choosing not to enforce those is beneficial to the owner. Adding the word "may" to them completely changes the card interaction and you close off design space for cards to have an effect that could have the kinds of drawbacks that ruthlessness and DMS have.

Secondly, if you are suggesting the alternative to my proposal which would be enforcing these latent effects regardless of timing were to become the rule it actually opens up the scope of cheating that much more.

How easy would it to be for your opponent to conveniently forget to trigger Rebel captive then during the next movement phase just as you reveal the ships dial, perhaps a red manoeuvre, your opponent jumps in saying ”Oh BTW that guy shot at rebel captive last turn it should have a stress on it, oh you did a red move I will set your dial now”

Now I'm not at all saying that deliberately forgetting abilities like Rebel Captive or dead man’s switch or any other abilities is to be condoned, indeed if a player consistently forgets certain effects it should be scrutinised by the TO and the player DQ'ed if malicious intent is discovered. What I'm merely saying is that a player should never be punished for not enforcing an opponents ability.

Honestly, it's far more logical, IMO, to simply enforce things that are automatic provided they don't require a rewinding of the game state when the error was discovered.

Firstly, most if not all of this discussion is aimed at how to resolve the situation only if discovered after the point of no return has already passed, i.e. halfway through the movement phase where ships have moved already etc. so this is somewhat of a moot point.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't work for multiple reasons. Should I be able to choose not to enforce Rebel Captive affecting Soontir or Keyan? How about Ruthlessness or Dead Man's Switch? There are situations where choosing not to enforce those is beneficial to the owner. Adding the word "may" to them completely changes the card interaction and you close off design space for cards to have an effect that could have the kinds of drawbacks that ruthlessness and DMS have.

Secondly, if you are suggesting the alternative to my proposal which would be enforcing these latent effects regardless of timing were to become the rule it actually opens up the scope of cheating that much more.

I'm not suggesting that. "Rewinding of the game state" would mean that if decisions have been made without an effect in mind, like the placing of dials, then it's too late. Both players missed it and the game has moved on. I do think that some of the timing is what people are debating. Thanks to the "missed opportunities" tournament rule, there are people that argue that the timing window for automatic effects is much shorter than I think it should be. We seem to agree there, that it's not immediate and that there is a "point of no return."

I was just pointing out why changing all card effects to "may" has broader consequences than simply making it easy to know whose responsibility a card result is to remember. Look again if the wording on Ruthlessness included a "may." That changes the card entirely.I'll add that I don't think that anyone should be punished for simply forgetting to apply a rule (on either side), unless as you said, it was done as a form of cheating.