Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent.

At what point in the attack process does rebel captive actually trigger and the player have to tell their opponent to put a stress token on, and at what point is Rebel Captive considered forgotten?

Once per round, the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack immediately receives 1 stress token

So as soon as someone says "I'm going to attack <ship with rebel captive> that ship should get a stress. It's not an optional effect so both sides should be keeping track of such a thing.

Edit: I don't consider that to be something that falls under the 'missed opportunities' header. IMO that only applies to optional effects, never mandatory ones. So if there's any way to fix it, it should be fixed. But as I say below, it's not always something that can be reasonably done.

If I were a TO and someone called me over on it...

I'd say that if neither side noticed the missing stress, and you were in the activation phase of the next turn, it would be too late to put it on. Because what ever ship should of had it, may of been given a green maneuver to remove the stress. But if you're already starting to move and activate ships its too late to go back at that point.

It's worth emphasizing that Rebel Captive is not an optional effect. That means both players are obligated to ensure that it is played correctly, and it's not an "opportunity" in the sense that the "Missed Opportunities" is really referring to.

My general rule for correcting mistakes on mandatory game effects is that as long as you can correct it without otherwise influencing the game state, you do so. So in this case, I'd say once dials are down, it's past and done, because a ship having stress is obviously a big impact not only for the player of that ship, but for his opponent trying to decide where he's going to go.

Okay, what is the earliest point in the game that you would say it's too late to place the stress token from Rebel Captive.

What if the person who wasn't controlling Rebel Captive chose his next attack based on the fact that he thought his ship didn't have a stress token. Would you still put a stress token on his ship?

What if he chose how to spend his Target Lock token based on the fact that he thought he didn't have any stress from Rebel Captive, and wouldn't have spent it if he knew his ship would be stressed next turn? Would you back up his attack and let him resolve another attack, or would you force him to stay with a sub-par decision because his opponent wasn't timely in notifying him of an effect that's on the other side of the table?

I agree with VanorDM and Buhallin on this one.

The rub is that tournaments have to be rule-bound affairs because people are competitive. Ideally, people would voluntarily come to an equitable solution based on a common understanding of sportsmanship. Obviously, ideals don't always work. That's why we have TOs.

I do think that the end of the round should be final. But if I realized it after doing a white maneuver, I would want myself to say "hang on, I should have had a stress on that." If it were a red maneuver or if it were a high stakes match, I'd be more hard-pressed to 'fess up.

Those are the times that try men's souls.

I agree with VanorDM and Buhallin on this one.

The rub is that tournaments have to be rule-bound affairs because people are competitive. Ideally, people would voluntarily come to an equitable solution based on a common understanding of sportsmanship. Obviously, ideals don't always work. That's why we have TOs.

I do think that the end of the round should be final. But if I realized it after doing a white maneuver, I would want myself to say "hang on, I should have had a stress on that." If it were a red maneuver or if it were a high stakes match, I'd be more hard-pressed to 'fess up.

Those are the times that try men's souls.

They should be trying the rules instead of our souls, but I know what you mean.

I can see why the planning phase of the next turn should be the latest you can put the stress token on there, it would be pretty annoying if you picked a white or red maneuver and then all of a sudden your ship had a stress token on it.

I'll just be sure to check with my TO before the event.

Okay, what is the earliest point in the game that you would say it's too late to place the stress token from Rebel Captive.

Once the first dial was revealed in the next round it's too late. In theory anytime before then you could do it, even if the dials are set and on the table, you could add the stress, then have both people reset their dials based on that ship now being stressed.

But in a timed event... That may take longer than people want.

What if the person who wasn't controlling Rebel Captive chose his next attack based on the fact that he thought his ship didn't have a stress token. Would you still put a stress token on his ship?

Yes. I'm not sure how much having a stress or not would affect your shooting choices, other than perhaps when using an Ion. But any suboptimal choice caused by that is the result of both sides missing a mandatory effect.

or would you force him to stay with a sub-par decision because his opponent wasn't timely in notifying him of an effect that's on the other side of the table?

It's both players responsibility to enact mandatory effects. If I shoot at something with a Rebel Captive I think there's a point where the other guy doesn't need to tell me, I should just put the stress on myself.

If I don't then the other person should remind me.

Any choices made after that that can't be changed are too late to change. It wouldn't be right to go back and reroll dice or the like because of a mistake both players made.

Something I tend to do with each attack is double check my card abilities and upgrades, in order to make sure that things like Rebel Captive don't slip past unnoticed. Whenever an opponent is attacking my ship, I have a quick look to see if there's anything I've got that will influence his attack. And when I'm attacking I'm again looking for any upgrades to help me.

That being said, some things still slip through sometimes.

What if he chose how to spend his Target Lock token based on the fact that he thought he didn't have any stress from Rebel Captive, and wouldn't have spent it if he knew his ship would be stressed next turn? Would you back up his attack and let him resolve another attack, or would you force him to stay with a sub-par decision because his opponent wasn't timely in notifying him of an effect that's on the other side of the table?

I'm basically repeating Vanor here, but...

It's definitely a gray area, and probably up to the TO. I'm not sure I've ever seen a case where target stress seriously impacted target selection, but if a player feels it really did I'd leave it up to the TO to resolve. It would be far too easy for someone to say "Well, of course I would have chosen another target if he was stressed!"

But the bold part, I'll stress again - this is not an issue of Player A not notifying Player B. Both players missed the effect, and both are equally responsible for the impact of that. Again, it may take a TO to resolve it, but there should not be any preference for player B just because the effect belonged to A.

Okay, so I just found this in the FAQ:

• If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time.

This rule doesn't seem to mention anything about optional effects or using abilities or performing actions, it specifically says declare a game effect during a specific timing window.

I feel like Reel Captive pretty clearly falls into that category as a game effect that has a specific timing window. Does this change anyone's answer?

This is a sticking point.

Rebel Captive is mandatory, sure. It should happen, no matter what. However, the OP's quote from the Tournament Rules clearly states that if a player forgets to use a card effect (Rebel Captive) he cannot retroactively use it (without opponent's consent). FFG do not differentiate between a mandatory effect and an optional effect with this ruling.

How do I feel about this? I don't like it, but it's what FFG have printed in their Tournament Rules document. It seems that FFG want players to play optimally and that you should not be forced to help your opponent beat you (in a competitive environment) by reminding them to use their upgrade cards.

Side note - I was watching a Store Champs Twitch TV stream and during one round, Player A attacked with his Phantom at Range 1. He rolled four dice. The game commentators were whispering, wondering why he never rolled the extra, fifth dice. The opponent never said anything. The combat sequence concluded and no one said anything except for the commentators stating something like "Well, he forgot to roll the extra dice - missed opportunity."

I have a problem with this. Rolling extra dice due to range modifiers is a GAME RULE. It's not a card effect or ability. It's a basic rule of the game that both players should be aware of and be willing to correct each other, without question.

I would like to see FFG flesh out the "Missed Opportunity" rule, providing a few simple examples of what they expect can be 'forgotten' and what they expect to see enforced.

I would like to see FFG flesh out the "Missed Opportunity" rule, providing a few simple examples of what they expect can be 'forgotten' and what they expect to see enforced.

Agreed. It seems like opportunities can be more easily missed if one opponent decides to unilaterally rush the game along. In the case mentioned under the third bullet - if I have the highest PS, and I start declaring my attack and rolling dice, then I have unilaterally ended the 'start of the Combat phase'.

If they're knowingly rushing, I'd say the rusher is in violation of Wheaton's Law, but I can see it happening.

In a perfect world, you'd have a TO at each game table, like you have a judge at each court in a tennis match. But that's nigh impossible to arrange.

Okay, so I just found this in the FAQ:

• If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time.

This rule doesn't seem to mention anything about optional effects or using abilities or performing actions, it specifically says declare a game effect during a specific timing window.

I feel like Reel Captive pretty clearly falls into that category as a game effect that has a specific timing window. Does this change anyone's answer?

It is a game effect with a specific timing window, but I'm not sure it's something that you "declare". The term is never strongly defined, but the rules seem to use it in the standard sense - the player announcing a decision.

The question in my mind is whether Rebel Captive is something that needs to be declared, or if it just happens. There's also a question of who "declares" a mandatory effect. Think about critical damage effects. If I have a critical effect (like Minor Hull Breach), is it up to me to declare it? It's an ability on my ship, after all, so you can't "declare" it for me any more than you could declare that I'm using the action to fix a Damaged Sensor Array. What if I conveniently forget a lot? Heck, what if I just refuse to declare it? If I just sit there with my mouth shut and flip my next dial, is the opportunity past?

I think you're looking for a worst-case reading on this, but I think you're a long way from having the only possible interpretation on it.

Mikael: FFG also state that "Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity".

Players should have time to think. Anyone who deliberately 'rushes' someone, trying to force the error, faces potential DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct.

I believe that all mandatory effects should happen and both players should be consciously monitoring the game state to enforce them. However, it's not a perfect world and things are forgotten.

With the current Tournament Rules, any forgotten mandatory action/effect will not happen and you are under no obligation to remind your opponent about it. It irks me, but that's how I play it.

(Competitive Rules, of course. I don't care what people do in casual games.)

I would like to see FFG flesh out the "Missed Opportunity" rule, providing a few simple examples of what they expect can be 'forgotten' and what they expect to see enforced.

Agreed. It seems like opportunities can be more easily missed if one opponent decides to unilaterally rush the game along. In the case mentioned under the third bullet - if I have the highest PS, and I start declaring my attack and rolling dice, then I have unilaterally ended the 'start of the Combat phase'.

If they're knowingly rushing, I'd say the rusher is in violation of Wheaton's Law, but I can see it happening.

I think it can just be assumed that only the controlling player can take actions that demonstrate they've forgotten an ability.

rtunities can be more easily missed if one opponent decides to unilaterally rush the game along. In the case mentioned under the third bullet - if I have the highest PS, and I start declaring my attack and rolling dice, then I have unilaterally ended the 'start of the Combat phase'.

If they're knowingly rushing, I'd say the rusher is in violation of Wheaton's Law, but I can see it happening.

Nope:

Okay, so I just found this in the FAQ:

• If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time.

This rule doesn't seem to mention anything about optional effects or using abilities or performing actions, it specifically says declare a game effect during a specific timing window.

I feel like Reel Captive pretty clearly falls into that category as a game effect that has a specific timing window. Does this change anyone's answer?

It is a game effect with a specific timing window, but I'm not sure it's something that you "declare". The term is never strongly defined, but the rules seem to use it in the standard sense - the player announcing a decision.

The question in my mind is whether Rebel Captive is something that needs to be declared, or if it just happens. There's also a question of who "declares" a mandatory effect. Think about critical damage effects. If I have a critical effect (like Minor Hull Breach), is it up to me to declare it? It's an ability on my ship, after all, so you can't "declare" it for me any more than you could declare that I'm using the action to fix a Damaged Sensor Array. What if I conveniently forget a lot? Heck, what if I just refuse to declare it? If I just sit there with my mouth shut and flip my next dial, is the opportunity past?

I think you're looking for a worst-case reading on this, but I think you're a long way from having the only possible interpretation on it.

That's a good point about critical damage effects, and I think the rule I originally posted covers how to deal with those.

If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent.

Hey buddy, friendly reminder, you forgot to roll for Console fire and take a stress token for Damaged Engine. Yes, I absolutely consent to have you resolve those effects.

I've seen players forget critical effects on their own ships plenty of times, it happens.

What about things like Turr Phenir or Advanced Cloaking Device? Misplaying those effects until the next planning phase can have irreversible effects on how the game plays out.

What about things like Turr Phenir or Advanced Cloaking Device? Misplaying those effects until the next planning phase can have irreversible effects on how the game plays out.

And at the point when they're irreversible, they're done. Everyone has said that from the very beginning. If I forget to roll with Turr and you attack him because he's still in your arc, then it's done - you can't back up past a die roll. If I forgot to put a cloak token down via ACD, it's a far smaller impact and probably up to your opponent (as we saw at GenCon).

If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent.

Hey buddy, friendly reminder, you forgot to roll for Console fire and take a stress token for Damaged Engine. Yes, I absolutely consent to have you resolve those effects.

I've seen players forget critical effects on their own ships plenty of times, it happens.

Now you're assuming it's entirely up to the opponent to go back. Why can't I say "Nope, it's past and the opportunity was missed, I'm not going back." It's still my effect; if we're going back things up for my effect, that would be my choice. Requiring your consent is not the same thing as handing you the entire choice of whether we're going to rewind.

Was thinking about this at the gym...

Is there a statute of limitations on a mandatory effect? Yes there is, but that will change for each effect.

Take Rebel Captive, is the stress from that any different then the stress you get from performing a red maneuver? I don't see how it can be, so can someone 'forget' to take the stress from doing a K-Turn and at some point it's too late to go back and fix it? Sure but at what point is that?

If you want to call that a missed opportunity based on the rules in the Tournament FAQ, as soon as I put a focus token or evade token on that ship and the next ship activates, is it too late to go back?

That kind of thinking would lead to a game where reflexes matter more then the rules, because if I give someone a "reasonable" time, which is hardly defined anywhere, then I can get away with anything that the other guy doesn't catch.

Take Rebel Captive, is the stress from that any different then the stress you get from performing a red maneuver? I don't see how it can be, so can someone 'forget' to take the stress from doing a K-Turn and at some point it's too late to go back and fix it? Sure but at what point is that?

That example highlights the difference between a game rule - getting stressed from the K-Turn - and a card effect, Rebel Captive.

Missed Opportunity, as written, certainly applies to Rebel Captive - you forget it so you lose the opportunity. However, it's very murky as to what should happen from forgetting to stress a K-Turn ship.

I believe that being a game rule, the K-Turn stress should happen, no matter what, and both players should be looking out for it. FFG don't explicitly state what happens when basic game rules are forgotten by both players.

There's no clear guidelines given and it will fall back to the TO's judgement.

I think the point earlier is best, that effects from ships and upgrades should be treated differently from effects from game rules and damage cards, but obviously you have to use best judgment to decide when you can still retroactively apply a game effect.

I think the point earlier is best, that effects from ships and upgrades should be treated differently from effects from game rules and damage cards, but obviously you have to use best judgment to decide when you can still retroactively apply a game effect.

I don't see how an effect like Rebel Captive is any different from taking a stress after K-Turning. It isn't an effect that the player that controls it does anything with. The person attacking is the one that takes all of the action in regards to Rebel Captive. It is in that person's best interest to 'forget' that they need to place a stress token on the ship.

As long as it is caught before dials start being revealed the opportunity hasn't been missed.

If "declaring" and missed opportunities apply to mandatory game effects, the entire system pretty much explodes. There is no separation line that you can draw between good effects, bad effects, my effects, your effects, etc, which don't have massive loopholes and problem cases. But again, IMHO, "declare" is a statement of intent - if the effect is mandatory, there is no intent, and it should just happen whether anyone declares it or not.

Without a strict definition for what has to be declared (or even what declaring means), I think that's perfectly valid. If you want to read it to cause problems, that's up to you, and I pity your TO for it