So, here is a personally observed anecdote of dockworker union 'productivity':

I worked on a cruise ship for two years and sailed all over the world. At one particular port with unionized dock workers, we arrived a few minutes earlier than our anticipated arrival time (6:53am...scheduled for 7:00am, which was the Union start time). The Captain steered the 135,000ton vessel into a tight 'parking spot,' between two other ships, fighting the wind and current the entire time. The Deck crewman shot the small lines across to the dock workers that were standing by the docking cleats, drinking their coffee. The first line lands perfectly, right at the feet of the unionized dock worker. He looks at it, laughs, and watches as it falls into the water. After all, it's not 7:00am. All he had to do was bend down and grab a small rope two inches from his shoe. Nope, not doing it. Better, apparently, to keep the Captain burning fuel keeping the ship in place than secure the giant ship to the dock.

Also, does anyone else get surprised that dock workers make almost $150k/year?

As far as I know, it's in large part because it's physical and occasionally dangerous work with weird hours, and by its nature it's only a steady job in big cities with a relatively high cost of living.

We could pool our money and hire mercenaries to steal the containers we need, it's what robin hood would do.

Our mercenaries are stuck in their shipping containers still; such is the crux of the problem. ;__;

Also, does anyone else get surprised that dock workers make almost $150k/year?

As far as I know, it's in large part because it's physical and occasionally dangerous work with weird hours, and by its nature it's only a steady job in big cities with a relatively high cost of living.

And that is the truth... one mans 80k in Az is another mans 150k in California.

Listen to the video issued by the Pacific Maritime Association link below or just search PMA in youtube.

(Begin sarcasm button) I stand in solidarity with my union brothers and sisters as I agree that there base salary of $147,000.00 is not sufficient and that a raise to $160,000.00 is just a slap in the face. Also how could they even think that an 11% raise in their retirement fund from $80,000.00 a year to $88,000.00 could be enough for them to survive? (End sarcasm button)

(Begin rant)

I recognize that working at the docks can be hazardous and that some of the dock works do occasionally dangerous work at odd hours. 40 years ago when cargo was break bulk long shore man work was extremely dangerous and hazardous. But with the advent of containerization and automation along with a major change in the safety climate throughout the west coast of the US a lot of the hazards can be mitigated. After working in the harbor on ships/facilities for 12 years I know and face the same dangers every day. I want to know why do paper pushers/ and other none physical jobs earn similar pay. Also why is it that you need to be born into the job? Why is that if you are the daughter or son of a long shore man you a get a job vs employing the best candidate for the job? As I remember it Europe had a system similar to this if you were born into a position called royalty. Lastly the cost of living is the same for a teacher or long shore man living in California; so why does a teacher earn only 30,000.00; to educate our future generations vs someone pushing paper work to process container box’s or driving a truck in a circle dropping off containers in a yard? (End rant)

Back to X-Wing: Cargo slow down means slower distribution of scum and villainy which affects us all.

My understanding is that the high figures we see for longshoreman salaries are based on a high hourly salary and assume a 40-hour a week work schedule, and usually add in the value of their benefits as well. From what I can find, the high income figures given are not typically the case. Actual income depends a lot on the hours they can work, which depend largely on how much cargo needs to be loaded or unloaded. When no boats are in port, then stevedores get no money. On the other hand when business is good, they can make good money. The irregularity of pay is probably a huge problem.

On top of that irregularity of work, you have dangerous conditions.

Now, I don't know the ins and outs of this particular dispute, but I wouldn't assume that longshoremen are greedy and spoiled. Especially based on the quoted figures. The dispute could be legitimate; overpaid workers don't usually strike.

Dangerous job? weird hours?? My brothers and sisters serving in the military have dangerous jobs with weird hours and don't get those kind of benefits! not even the college educated officers!!!! Yeah i get the need for unions to keep the little guy from being abused but 150K a year average???? really.. yeah even in an "Expensive city" that's good money for an air-conditioned/heated forklift driver!! just saying its not like they are manually using block & tackle to move cargo around.. My solution hire vets for 1/2 the price and get twice the work speed!! but i am a little biased...Also if they are retired they wont need the 80K a year "benefit" package!!! lots of vets need jobs right now as they are gutting the military AGAIN while at the same time spooling up for another conflict!!! of course if they screw with the vets retirement package anymore they might need the 80K package... I am not anti union but i am pro vet and common sense...

Unions began going away in the 1970s, and the American middle class began shrinking at the same time. Having an individual trying to bargain against the collective power of a multi billion dollar company is a sick joke.

Of course, lost in the pro-union "facts" are how this came about. Unionization in the USA came about as;

1 - Workers organized to more effectively bargain with employers (great)

2 - Unions used dues to elect local pro-labor politicians (ok)

3 - Pro-labor politicians used positions to enact obligatory union membership and dues (bad)

4 - Money collected via dues as required by law was used to re-elect the politicians who wrote those laws (terrible)

5 - The industries affected by labor laws were destroyed (inevitable)

6 - With no industry to collect pro-union money from, anti-union politicians were able to get re-elected in some places (who knows, probably going to end in a damaging over-correction)

There is a statistically insignificant number of unionized companies or industries in the USA that deunionized. The reason unionization is at a record low in the USA is that many of the companies and industries that were heavily unionized simply ceased to exist here. It is a major red herring to trot out the idea of unions being defeated by pro-business forces in the USA, it didn't happen. The unions won, but they went too far (as always happens when one political group gets too much power no matter what group it is) and they killed the golden goose. The reason for deep anti-union sentiment across much of the country is the observation of what unbridled labor unions did to the industries they were a part of. The businesses didn't beat the unions, they died and the unions died with them.

Generally speaking European unions do not have the us vs. them mentality, and instead work with the companies they are a part of. They are more similar to US trade unions such as the IBEW, who provide training and certification to their members ensuring that IBEW members are the best electricians available. When I hire an electrician for my business I use IBEW certified guys because I have confidence they are well trained, experienced, and worth the extra money spent, not because I am afraid the IBEW is going to show up on my doorstep and burn the place down if I don't. These unions provide real value, which means that their members are worth the increased wages they negotiate for. Unions such as the Teamsters/Longshoremen and UAW don't look for ways to make their workers more valuable, they simply demand and extort increased wages by threatening to damage the company if they don't get what they ask for. They do this while fighting things like automation that would make their members more valuable in return. Not all unions are the same, and the Longshoremen/Teamsters are examples of the worst kind.

Must agree with the above. It is the lack of "right to work" laws that often causes the Union problems. Delta airlines is going through a unionization vote and many of their employees who came from unionized companies are FIGHTING unionization because it led to a poor relationship with management and bankrupted the company which then was bought/merged with Delta.

Dangerous job? weird hours?? My brothers and sisters serving in the military have dangerous jobs with weird hours and don't get those kind of benefits! not even the college educated officers!!!! Yeah i get the need for unions to keep the little guy from being abused but 150K a year average???? really.. yeah even in an "Expensive city" that's good money for an air-conditioned/heated forklift driver!! just saying its not like they are manually using block & tackle to move cargo around.. My solution hire vets for 1/2 the price and get twice the work speed!! but i am a little biased...Also if they are retired they wont need the 80K a year "benefit" package!!! lots of vets need jobs right now as they are gutting the military AGAIN while at the same time spooling up for another conflict!!! of course if they screw with the vets retirement package anymore they might need the 80K package... I am not anti union but i am pro vet and common sense...

Free food, housing, health care, and college aren't good enough benefits?

So, here is a personally observed anecdote of dockworker union 'productivity':

I worked on a cruise ship for two years and sailed all over the world. At one particular port with unionized dock workers, we arrived a few minutes earlier than our anticipated arrival time (6:53am...scheduled for 7:00am, which was the Union start time). The Captain steered the 135,000ton vessel into a tight 'parking spot,' between two other ships, fighting the wind and current the entire time. The Deck crewman shot the small lines across to the dock workers that were standing by the docking cleats, drinking their coffee. The first line lands perfectly, right at the feet of the unionized dock worker. He looks at it, laughs, and watches as it falls into the water. After all, it's not 7:00am. All he had to do was bend down and grab a small rope two inches from his shoe. Nope, not doing it. Better, apparently, to keep the Captain burning fuel keeping the ship in place than secure the giant ship to the dock.

Dangerous job? weird hours?? My brothers and sisters serving in the military have dangerous jobs with weird hours and don't get those kind of benefits!

Slightly off topic, I don't get why people, particularly in America, seem to worship "veterans" (do you just use that to mean anyone who's been in the army etc, no matter how long for?). It's a job they signed up for, and get paid for, it's not charity work; if there's danger involved it's danger they've agreed to in exchange for a contractual enumeration package. They're also hiring themselves out as killers for a government with a track record of waging immoral, potentially illegal, wars, hardly the most saintly line of work.

I realise this is a controversial subject, and I don't mean to deride any particular member of the armed forces (my cousin's a submariner, although he accidentally nicked my second warmest coat for half the winter, so screw him ), so if you feal particularly enraged by what I just said then let's not discuss it here.

I've been watching this thread for some time now and reading all the post. I've typed out replies many times and stopped and thought to my self "don't get involved". Unions fall into politics category for me and there are two things I avoid publicly commenting on and they are Religion and politics.

They're also hiring themselves out as killers for a government with a track record of waging immoral, potentially illegal, wars, hardly the most saintly line of work.

I realise this is a controversial subject, and I don't mean to deride any particular member of the armed forces (my cousin's a submariner, although he accidentally nicked my second warmest coat for half the winter, so screw him ), so if you feal particularly enraged by what I just said then let's not discuss it here.

I'm risking de-railing this further, but I have to ask. You mentioned wars (plural) and I'm curious. I can easily see the Iraq War (and let it sit that that point is debatable for many, but I understand the perspective), but am not sure on the others.

I also left in the 2nd bit you said to ensure that I'm just curious and no one should lambast you at all. Please. People don't. I'm just curious.

Also, does anyone else get surprised that dock workers make almost $150k/year?

As far as I know, it's in large part because it's physical and occasionally dangerous work with weird hours, and by its nature it's only a steady job in big cities with a relatively high cost of living.

All the quotes that cite that figure (which are all from the employers' side) suggest that this is what they make if they work (on average) full time, which includes the value of the benefits package. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but it would be interesting the know the denominator of that average. Is this an industry where most individual workers are full time? If most of them are not full time, what does their wage drop to considering the drop of the benefits package?

I've been watching this thread for some time now and reading all the post. I've typed out replies many times and stopped and thought to my self "don't get involved". Unions fall into politics category for me and there are two things I avoid publicly commenting on and they are Religion and politics.

That's probably a good avoidance to live by, which I probably should try to emulate more than I do - especially on a company forum such as this one.

Let's get this back on topic people...

Where are my little plastic toys? Stop fighting over stuff that doesn't matter like livelihoods, retirement, and job safety and bring me my plastic space toys so that I might fly them around my dining room table and make laser sounds.

They're also hiring themselves out as killers for a government with a track record of waging immoral, potentially illegal, wars, hardly the most saintly line of work.

I realise this is a controversial subject, and I don't mean to deride any particular member of the armed forces (my cousin's a submariner, although he accidentally nicked my second warmest coat for half the winter, so screw him ), so if you feal particularly enraged by what I just said then let's not discuss it here.

I'm risking de-railing this further, but I have to ask. You mentioned wars (plural) and I'm curious. I can easily see the Iraq War (and let it sit that that point is debatable for many, but I understand the perspective), but am not sure on the others.

I also left in the 2nd bit you said to ensure that I'm just curious and no one should lambast you at all. Please. People don't. I'm just curious.

I didn't really have anything specific in mind, just the general feeling I have. I'm not convinced any of the recent wars in the Middle East have been good ideas, nor necessarily motivated by good intentions (after all, there are plenty other genocidal regimes which the West hasn't stepping in to stop, and indeed there are cruel, murderous regimes who are our allies, and speaking for the UK but I assume it's also true for America, who we sell weapons to and train soldiers and spies for who later go on to use those weapons and skills against peaceful protestors). I don't know much about it, but was the war in Vietnam Nam a particularly moral war for America to get involved in(genuine question, not a statement of opinion)?

We should probably stop talking about this before FFG close the thread.

Let's hope that in the next wave when the ARC-170s are on the boat there are no delays, or that FFG win a prize draw for a thousand tons of free air freight!

To answer mazz0's question, there's a couple of elements. One is that Americans in general have a postive opinion of guns, period. They're heavily romanticized (Both in terms of the romantic idea of freedom, and in being a bit of a sex symbol. Seriously, look at Bond film covers. He's got a girl in one hand and a gun in the other), and a sizable portion of Americans consider gun ownership up there with freedom of religion (This baffles me, but there you have it). Even pro-gun control people aren't immune to the allure simply because it's so embedded into our culture.

The idea of a citizen militia is also rather romanticized. It can look weird to foriegners considering all that happened, but American History Teachers (well, the early education ones. Anyone who goes into higher education and takes an American History class gets a bit more nuanced view) tend to classify basically all of the U.S.'s wars defensive wars. Plus, the last time there was fighting on American Soil was the Civil War, so Americans don't have the constant reminders of the world wars the way Europeans do (the French still find literal tons of un-defused ordnance each year).

*Well, actually, the government's handling of veterans' compensation has historically been terrible. We just remember the one time we got it right, the G.I. Bill, and not the century and a half where we had huge number of angry veterans demanding their promised benefits.

EDIT: Decided to avoid a controversial topic where I might have stuck my foot in my mouth, so I delted a bit of my post.

Dangerous job? weird hours?? My brothers and sisters serving in the military have dangerous jobs with weird hours and don't get those kind of benefits! not even the college educated officers!!!! Yeah i get the need for unions to keep the little guy from being abused but 150K a year average???? really.. yeah even in an "Expensive city" that's good money for an air-conditioned/heated forklift driver!! just saying its not like they are manually using block & tackle to move cargo around.. My solution hire vets for 1/2 the price and get twice the work speed!! but i am a little biased...Also if they are retired they wont need the 80K a year "benefit" package!!! lots of vets need jobs right now as they are gutting the military AGAIN while at the same time spooling up for another conflict!!! of course if they screw with the vets retirement package anymore they might need the 80K package... I am not anti union but i am pro vet and common sense...

Free food, housing, health care, and college aren't good enough benefits?

150K a year alone would trump that.. also you usually don't have folks trying to kill you when your a dock worker and you get to go "HOME" at the end of the day no year long family separations etc...also the food/housing and college are not free.. yeah you get an "allowance" for food/housing based on the area you live in.. if your a dorm rat then you get like 150SQFT of living space and have to eat at the chow hall which actually has pretty good food. but if you work those weird hours then they may not be open when you want to eat you also have to GO to the chow hall which is not as convenient as going to your kitchen! granted you don't have to cook the food unless that's your job...

And do you seen any parallels between all that and the events of Star Wars? Lot of guns in Star Wars. And war. You know, people think of the Jedi as really lovey dovey pacifist types (it's one of HK-47's biggest complaints, although of course that's a thousand years BBY), but it seems to me they jump to violence very quickly. They send highly trained killers to negotiate trade disputes, they cut people's arms off cos they can't be bothered calming them down, hell, I bet if they'd tried they could have avoided being drawn into Palpatine's clone wars, punished the trade federation financially (and of course they should have allowed any planets that democratically chose to to secede from the Republic) and saved millions of lives. And of course, Han Solo...

And do you seen any parallels between all that and the events of Star Wars? Lot of guns in Star Wars. And war. You know, people think of the Jedi as really lovey dovey pacifist types (it's one of HK-47's biggest complaints, although of course that's a thousand years BBY), but it seems to me they jump to violence very quickly. They send highly trained killers to negotiate trade disputes, they cut people's arms off cos they can't be bothered calming them down, hell, I bet if they'd tried they could have avoided being drawn into Palpatine's clone wars, punished the trade federation financially (and of course they should have allowed any planets that democratically chose to to secede from the Republic) and saved millions of lives. And of course, Han Solo...

But what if the planet is rules by a monarch such as naboo or aldaraan?

How can a planet with no democracy or at least no semblance of one (I don't buy into that "elect your queen business") democratically secede from anything? And there is large danger by letting members simply leave whenever they want...how could the "republic" survive if you could simply leave when something you didn't like happened or they started "taxing" you more than you wanted to pay? An easy way out would only lead to more problems...keep in mind the "republic" is millions of miles away from most of the "people of the republic." Why should they worry about staying and paying for something so distant and nebulous?

But what if the planet is rules by a monarch such as naboo or aldaraan?

How can a planet with no democracy or at least no semblance of one (I don't buy into that "elect your queen business") democratically secede from anything? And there is large danger by letting members simply leave whenever they want...how could the "republic" survive if you could simply leave when something you didn't like happened or they started "taxing" you more than you wanted to pay? An easy way out would only lead to more problems...keep in mind the "republic" is millions of miles away from most of the "people of the republic." Why should they worry about staying and paying for something so distant and nebulous?

Why? Because there are benefits to staying. If you no longer feel those benefits are worth the costs then of course you should be allowed to leave. To force people to stay against their wil is obscene, that would be a clear case of the majority imposing their will on a minority and would make you just as bad as the monarchies you (correctly) hold in such disdain.

I've no problem with calling your democratically leader king/queen (so long as it's not an elected for life thing, which it wasn't on Naboo, we don't know the situation on Alderaan), in fact I rather like the idea - kinda like rubbing it in the face of the old hereditary system. As a British republican I actually don't see why we'd need to replace the monarchy with anything at all, but if we did I'd be in favour of electing a new king/queen every ten years or whatever.

As a supporter of the empire I can't say I distain a star wars monarchy (real life would be another story.)

You might think holding them in is obscene...but other member states might not. Then may very well want to force one to stay for a variety of reasons. If you allow easy exits it quickly falls apart. As I started above...the average republic citizen is so focused on what goes on on their home most aren't going to care what happens a million miles away. If there is any decent gain be it short or long term to be had people will take it and leave...screw everyone else...it's our nature.

And I'll call a spade a spade...naboo and aldaraan are both monarchies...it's safe to assume leia inherited her position cause her daddy was in charge...maybe not...but with the way I was seeing things run in the galaxy far far away that is what I think... she was quite the diplomat but I never saw it...she was a royal in the intergalactic senate...how democratic...

But to answer the main question if a member state wanted to leave I guess they could..but they would ne banned from ever rejoining ever again...you can't just come and go as you please. It destroys the whole system...

So yeah..... plastic toys and union disputes.

Trust me, when it comes to War and Politics every country has very dirty secrets. Question is is this the right forum and thread?

(I have a good college degree and I love history and love to discuss politics, but now is not the time or place. And as for the Republic and the Jedi, I believe religion and politics should be kept seperate. And who has over sight of the Jedi actions? Do we expect them to keep their secrets from the public they are suppose to protect?

Wait.... what happened to the Jedi? When?)

I totally support us having heated political debate of in-universe politics. That would be tremendous fun, but we would probably need a different thread for it.

Also, I think 'The Republic' is a misnomer for the political regime that existed before the Empire - but regimes are usually misnamed.