We've got store championships coming up. It's time to build a list.

I'm not concerned with winning the tournament so much as I am placing high enough to get some of the goodies (the dice bag particularly), and getting within the top 32 for the fel card. So I need to build a list not just for fun, but is reasonable enough to compete in the meta.

Thing is, I wonder if this means I must fly some combination of fat-han / Decimator-Phantom / Phantom spam simply to be competitive. I'm not flying TIE swarms anymore, and I have the feeling if I take a B-Wing Z-swarm idea I cooked up last week I'm going to be eaten for breakfast either by the phantoms or the Decimator shooting stress and vader crits. Or something.

I suppose I could fly Alex D's 6 A-Wing list, but given my dice luck I could only trust my green dice to flat-line through the entire tournament.

So... how mandatory is it for competitive play to fly a Decimator-Phantom-FatHan? One of our local tournaments around here apparently finished out with a Decimator/Whisper mirror match, which goes to show that yes to place high you need to fly with these things. Is this true?

ITs completely not.

There's one that you forgot:

Rebel Control:

Eh, the new Y-Wing title isn't out is it?

How about:

2x Blues with E/2 and Tactician (25 pts each)

Blue with Ion cannon (25 pts)

Gold with Ion Turret and R3-A2 (25 pts)

100 points of stress and ion and each part is equally interchangable as they are all 25 points.

To answer your Title question.. Halfway?

If TIE swarms were your BnB (Bread aNd Butter) why not take a mini-swarm with something in the present.

might I suggest this:

Black Squadron Pilot — TIE Fighter 14
Outmaneuver 3

Black Squadron Pilot — TIE Fighter 14
Outmaneuver 3

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

"Whisper" — TIE Phantom 32
Veteran Instincts 1
Fire-Control System 2
Rebel Captive 3
Advanced Cloaking Device 4

It's not a traditional mini-swarm with Howl leading, but what it does do it rattle the cages of Fat Hans and Kenkirks.

Does you opponent want that heavy turret facing focused on the TIEs first or the Phantom?

Title doesn't even matter if actually run it without because it gives you a huge area to catch slippery ships in.

Don't follow the herd! I imagine there is nothing more boring than playing 4+ games against carbon copies of your own list.

I know. That's why I'm wondering if there are pilots out there with successes against the "common" lists with something unconventional.

for casual matches I'm staying away from the decimator/phantom because these things are boring. If I had access to everything, I'd be running some upgraded Advanceds with targeting computers. Sadly...

So that's why I'm wondering. Might give that list a try Blail.

I wish I could feel confident enough to run Empire in this semi-competitive setting but my dice luck is so bad it's a thing of legend.

Crazy thought

There's nothing more fun than countering the meta, thus starting a new meta.

In my store championship, I'm not going to be playing the meta. I've got an oddball list with which I've racked up a ton of flight hours.

It's pretty **** good against Fat Turrets, but I haven't seen a Phantom in a good long while. I'm hoping the turrets keep the Phantoms away, and I can then mop up the turrets.

I know. That's why I'm wondering if there are pilots out there with successes against the "common" lists with something unconventional.

for casual matches I'm staying away from the decimator/phantom because these things are boring. If I had access to everything, I'd be running some upgraded Advanceds with targeting computers. Sadly...

So that's why I'm wondering. Might give that list a try Blail.

I wish I could feel confident enough to run Empire in this semi-competitive setting but my dice luck is so bad it's a thing of legend.

What do you have available to you for list building?

Whats your preference Empire or Alliance?

Are the list restrictions only no Large-Based Turrets or Phantoms?

What style of play do you prefer: beat-down or control?

What's your stance on Ordnance?

Knowing these would help with finding a suitable list. Of course with some general strategy to accompany.

Also how unconventional does a list have to be if the components are conventional?

NEVER CONFORM!!!!!!!!!

Where's the fun in that...?

Let's be honest, the meta lists do have a competitive edge, thats why they're meta, so you'll just have to accept your games may not be walk through's but as everyone says, it's by no means impossible. I'm usually an imperial player but i'm taking a rebel hiatus for my next store championship-here's the list i'm currently toying with:

Gold Squadron Pilot w/ Ion Canon Turret

Gold Squadron Pilot w/ Ion Canon Turret

Wedge w/ Swarm Tactics

Tarn Mison

What can i say-i love lists that "feel right" and both X's and Y's definitely feel right in a rebel list to me:-)

It's 4-1 up (beat following lists; super dash & chewie, pumped up Boba & Krassis, and two A-wing swarms, loss to a z-swarm [although i did make mistakes in this one so a win was possible]). My major concern is the lack of firepower and not all the wins were easily achieved. The list seems to rely on the dice a bit too much due to the lack of guarantee modifier upgrades but the points wouldn't stretch...:-/

Anyhoo (rambling) point is; it's definitely possible (and i bet you'd feel better about achieving your goals without selling out too...)

My preference is Empire, but I don't trust relying on agility and I like flying pure imperial equipment. Since my agility dice like to fail spectacularly I thought I'd fly rebels for some resilience.

One list I tried last week was

2x Blue squadron pilots // Advanced sensors

4x Bandit squadron pilots

But this lacks turrets, even though I do have a lot of attacks I'd be pushing at anyone and there's plenty of coverage. But I can imagine the Zs dying horribly to Phantom shinanigans and loosing my Blues in the first two turns from concentrated fire. So, not a list I feel comfortable with.

I could bring out the Cutting edge list (2 B-Wing HLCs + 2 HWK Ion Cannon) but the last time I ran that against Phantoms it didn't do so well.

I was considering ordnance, sticking some Ion pulse missiles or flichettes in there since they're cheap enough to actually consider.

what's your main issue with the meta ship lists...? the bulk of the large ships or the arc dodging of the phantoms...?

Nera + Deadeye + Flechette Torpedo

Roark + Ion turret

Blue + FCS

Rookie + R3-A2

Take Phantoms out with Nera shutting down the ACD with a flechette at PS 12, followed by Roark ionizing at PS 4

B-wing x 2 plus X wing can take on a fat han or decimator. Rookie can lock down actions with stress from A2

Roark gives ion control and PS 12

Lots of options

Variant I've used

Nera + Deadeye + Flechette

Roark + Ion turret

Bandit + Ion pulse x 3

Swarmy, same combo for dealing with phantoms and 3 z's for fat large ships.

Don't take Decimators, Fat Hans, Phantoms or Dash's just because everyone else seems to - play what you're comfortable and confident with flying.

If you know how to get the best out of B-Wings, if you know the A-Wing's dial like the back of your hand, if you can reliably arc dodge with Phantoms - go with what you know best.

If you don't usually fly Phantoms but decide to take one because you think it's the only way to be competitive at a tournament, then you're doing it wrong.

eh... for a time I thought I was most comfortable with TIE swarm lists. The Imdaar alpha tournaments proved how wrong this thought was, so I really don't have one list I'm the most comfortable with. It was cutting egde before, but it just didn't work when stacked against phatoms. Once they blew up my HWKs, it was fish in a barrel.

I could try my Study Your Predators list:

Brath // HLC / EngUpgr / AdrenalineRush

3x Black Squadron // Predator

But with only four ships I can also see this being eaten alive. Those BSPs are too expensive for how crunchy they are, and it will only come down to how long Brath can last. I need more firepower or more tricks than this.

I like your second list Sergovan, for two reasons. One it means if I loose Dantels I still have something to fall back on, and two I like having some balance in my list. Four aces in different ships feels off to me, which is usually why I liked running swarms.

For full disclosure I have nearly everything. Multiples of the small craft, and only one shuttle, Decimator, and Outrider.

Since people really like Decimator/Phantom, why not fly something that can put the pain on the Decimator quickly? Take it down and spend the rest of the time running and rolling attack dice waiting for the Phantom's green dice to fail. The Decimator hates HLC because it's 4 dice and they get no range bonus; bring 2 of those and you could take it down in 2-3 rounds of combat.

I suppose I could fly Alex D's 6 A-Wing list, but given my dice luck I could only trust my green dice to flat-line through the entire tournament.

I actually think that Alpha-strike lists have a good position against the current metagame, and they play swarmishly after loosing their ordnance.

How good's their corran-dash feeling after taking 6 Concussion Missiles to the face? Good enough to face 6 z-95s? Didn't think so.

My full post on the subject, including a list of squads later in the subject.

We've had two store champinships in Atlanta so far, that were won by BBZZZ and a shuttle and two interceptors.

The second store championship had 5 x wings in the top 4.

Screw the meta.

We've had two store champinships in Atlanta so far, that were won by BBZZZ and a shuttle and two interceptors.

The second store championship had 5 x wings in the top 4.

Screw the meta.

Wow, it's almost like people are realizing that the SuperPhantom is merely "Very Good", and not "Unbeatable unless you're playing a PS 9+ Turret"

Here's the thing about meta: USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE! If the enemy becomes predictable you gain the upper hand.

Build a good all around list that also capitalizes on the weaknesses of these popular lists that you know you will run into. Two ship builds have common weaknesses. Exploit that.

My opinion has always been that the meta is something you build a squad to counter, not what you build your squad to be.

Now I will try out popular squads since I am curious, but when I am getting competitive I build to counter the meta (so I need to handle a 2 ship build with a turret, phantoms and it would be good to have a plan against a swarm).

First you must learn that there is no meta.

Or rather, there no meta game in your micro games.

Or perhaps further defined there are only builds which have a greater likelihood of victory against one another when played by players of equal pilot skill, experience, and standard tactics. In the aggregate this means that Phantoms will more often beat TIE swarms or four ship rebel builds and that Fat Han will beat Phantoms, but individually you have no reason to expect the same result. Those other variables simply present too large of a variance for you to sell out to the meta for your individual games.

Take what you are best at and enjoy flying. Understanding the meta should influence your tactics and perhaps slight tweaks to your list, but not usually not abandoning it entirely.

...I wonder if this means I must fly some combination of fat-han / Decimator-Phantom / Phantom spam simply to be competitive.

(a) If I treat the metagame as a menu, will I fly a meta list better than I could fly anything else?

(b) I enjoy winning pretty much no matter what, but if I lose, will I have more fun with a meta list or with something off-the-wall?

My answers to those questions are that I don't particularly like flying Decimators (although Phantoms are fun), and if I don't have a good day in terms of W/L, I'd at least like to have an original day. So I'm going to run something I think can beat the metagame.

I suppose I could fly Alex D's 6 A-Wing list, but given my dice luck I could only trust my green dice to flat-line through the entire tournament.

I think the success of the 6 A-wing list has to do with the fact that it's enough of a swarm to cause problems for Han and Decimators, but the ships are still tough enough (and maneuverable enough) individually to at least stall a Phantom. I know you like your swarms, and I think it might be possible to pull off something similar with a mix of TIE fighters with Hull Upgrade and TIE interceptors...

Let's be honest, the meta lists do have a competitive edge, thats why they're meta...

I'm not sure this is true, actually. The problem with the metagame is that it doesn't necessarily reward or respond to innovation: fundamentally, lots of people copy other people's successful lists. So while the metagame is a set of successful lists, I don't accept that it's the set of all lists that could be successful--particularly since the more static and predictable a metagame becomes, the easier it is to predict what your opponents will be running.

My preference is Empire, but I don't trust relying on agility and I like flying pure imperial equipment.

So TIE swarms are out and so are Firesprays, right?

I was considering ordnance, sticking some Ion pulse missiles or flichettes in there since they're cheap enough to actually consider.

...but if you're considering ordnance, TIE bombers are right in. I'm currently toying with something like this:

It has pretty good offensive production plus a bit of control, and it's distributed enough that if you can down a Decimator early (and two rounds isn't at all unreasonable), what's left is going to have to kill at least three of your ships to get ahead again.

Nera + Deadeye + Flechette Torpedo

Roark + Ion turret

Blue + FCS

Rookie + R3-A2

I like this a lot, too, and have toyed with something similar. I wish I could shoehorn another Flechette in for Nera, though, maybe with a Failsafe as well--which you can do if you demote Blue Squadron to another Rookie. But then I'm running a list with two Rookie Pilots, which is a competitive no-no lately.

Since people really like Decimator/Phantom, why not fly something that can put the pain on the Decimator quickly? Take it down and spend the rest of the time running and rolling attack dice waiting for the Phantom's green dice to fail. The Decimator hates HLC because it's 4 dice and they get no range bonus; bring 2 of those and you could take it down in 2-3 rounds of combat.

Setting aside the fact that Norsehound says he can't do green dice, Jonus + 2x Delta Squadron Pilot will fly at least a little bit like Cutting Edge (particularly if you spring for Ion Pulse Missiles on Jonus), and it's reasonably resilient.