And thus you have misunderstood his argument. Expose is not a good way to increase average damage on a 4 attack ship. Expose and Focus both result in 3.75 average damage on a target locked 4 dice initial attack. At range 1 Focus gives 4.6875 damage and Expose gives 4.5. Plus the Focus attack doesn't always require the focus.

So given Expose reduces your agility by 1 why are you using it?

You can't focus+expose with that phantom build.

5 target locked dice average 3.75 hits, 4 focused 3 hits. FCS+weapons engineer mean you will almost always have a TL on your target. Range one: 6 TL dice=4.5 hits, 5 focused=3.72. Not to mention the chance of getting a crit through. Only focus+target lock can match the average hits of TL+one dice without the decent chance of 5-6 hits which can never happen with 4-5 dice.

It also makes your phantom draw a lot of hate, that's useful in a ship that can dance like echo.

Um so? I was assuming you had target lock for all my calculations. I was giving the weapons engineer + FCS.

Sure you eliminate the chance of higher maximum damage and also deal slightly fewer crits with focus, but what you lose in the top of damage you gain in the fact you do much more consistent damage.

Since the dice are fickle - I would take the Focus every time. Especially given there is a non-zero chance to not use the focus and thus have it available for defence (which perhaps as you pointed out is not needed as you never get shot)

stuff

+Buhallin said stuff

Many in this thread are implying/outright saying expose is 100% useless and was a 4 point tax on that specific phantom build. I was merely pointing out, no it isn't, it increases your damage potential in exchange for some reliability. Also a good player won't be exposing every round, you can still focus+evade and get consistent hits, or, go for broke and gamble on a big boom. It's not 100% useless.

Now continue your(not directed at bilisknir) regularly scheduled whine about how people can't beat phantoms without ps9+/turrets and chasing prospective new players away from this game.

Many in this thread are implying/outright saying expose is 100% useless and was a 4 point tax on that specific phantom build. I was merely pointing out, no it isn't, it increases your damage potential in exchange for some reliability. Also a good player won't be exposing every round, you can still focus+evade and get consistent hits, or, go for broke and gamble on a big boom. It's not 100% useless.

This is what the "Everything is Awesome!" crowd is reduced to. Defending Expose.

I weep for this community.

I'm so glad we can just lump everyone into two neat groups when it comes to opinions on the state of the game.

Many in this thread are implying/outright saying expose is 100% useless and was a 4 point tax on that specific phantom build. I was merely pointing out, no it isn't, it increases your damage potential in exchange for some reliability. Also a good player won't be exposing every round, you can still focus+evade and get consistent hits, or, go for broke and gamble on a big boom. It's not 100% useless.

This is what the "Everything is Awesome!" crowd is reduced to. Defending Expose.

I weep for this community.

Oh my gosh! You like Expose too? I love that EPT!

Lol. I believe Expose has found a happy home on Decimators, especially Chiraneau, but otherwise it is generally too much trouble to be effective.

I'm of the opinion that there are two types of ship that need to be addressed when discussing the Phantom: Echo and the others. I've found killing any other phantom significantly easier than trying to track down Echo. I've lost two games to rebel swarms since I started playing echo - the first game was in the semis at regionals and my green dice deserted me (I'd beaten the player in the second round of the Swiss) and the second game was against a swarm including a PS 9 ship.

I think KineticOperator nailed it - big shock as he's a fantastic player.

This isn't to say that swarms can't beat phantoms - the same player who beat me in the semis beat an awful lot of other phantoms to get there - but he loses more games to Echo than he wins against equally skilled opponents.

As a phantom player, I *want* you to chase my phantom so that the rest of my ships can pick away at you. The best advice I'd give is to try and make sure that you always have one or two ships that can shoot at Echo, and try to set it up so that if you don't have those shots you can shoot Echo's escort with as many ships as possible. Then, when the escort is gone, try to limit decloak options as much as possible, and don't let Echo get behind you.

I'm of the opinion that there are two types of ship that need to be addressed when discussing the Phantom: Echo and the others. I've found killing any other phantom significantly easier than trying to track down Echo. I've lost two games to rebel swarms since I started playing echo - the first game was in the semis at regionals and my green dice deserted me (I'd beaten the player in the second round of the Swiss) and the second game was against a swarm including a PS 9 ship.

I think KineticOperator nailed it - big shock as he's a fantastic player.

This isn't to say that swarms can't beat phantoms - the same player who beat me in the semis beat an awful lot of other phantoms to get there - but he loses more games to Echo than he wins against equally skilled opponents.

As a phantom player, I *want* you to chase my phantom so that the rest of my ships can pick away at you. The best advice I'd give is to try and make sure that you always have one or two ships that can shoot at Echo, and try to set it up so that if you don't have those shots you can shoot Echo's escort with as many ships as possible. Then, when the escort is gone, try to limit decloak options as much as possible, and don't let Echo get behind you.

Agreed 100% +1

Imo for whisper and generic phantoms you don't need turrets or pilot skill really but echo is a diff story. If someone flys echo you better be packing turrets.

I see what the player was trying to do with Expose/FCS/Eng, and it's an interesting idea. I don't agree that the very marginal improvement in firepower (less than .1 damage gained if you count crits as 1.25 rather than 1, even damage otherwise) is worth 4 points and the loss of your EPT slot, especially because there are a quite a few times where you will not be able to use Expose and you telegraph your next target with your choice of TL. With more support (read, action sharing ala Squad Leader or Fleet Officer) this might be viable.

As for Phantoms needing to "choose" between being untargetable and needing greens, that is a bit of a red herring. Depending on match up, the Phantom (Echo specifically, Whisper much less so) can be extremely hard to target. Not "impossible for anyone to fire on", but definitely "impossible to focus multiple ships against" barring major misplay by the Phantom. Green dice are at their most effective when combined with focus and facing a single shot, so the Phantom is BOTH extremely difficult to target and reliant on its green dice. A loss of a single die means an increase in expected damage of 5/8 of a point under those circumstances, and for a ship with only 4 health in the first place that is a very big deal. Alternately, against turrets the Phantom may be utterly reliant on its green dice. Expose would be of some marginal use in the first instance, and completely terrible in the second.

What you propose as a solution/method/tactic for dealing with Phantoms is correct insofar as it goes. Slow approaches along the board edge make the Phantoms job much more difficult. Which is why a canny Phantom player will take the initiative against an all-generic list. He is ahead from turn one, and will win the game if/when it goes to time. If you are playing with draws (non-elim rounds) he is wise to wait until you k-turn and come in, exposing himself to a single round of actionless shooting. If he can eliminate any one of your ships, he can then retreat and force you to come to him.

There is a reason why Phantoms are feared, and it is not incompetence on the part of the fearful. Jean Christie (sp.) the french national champion used an 8 TIE swarm and was eliminated by Six Sigma at Worlds, and I guarantee you that man knows how to play. I was completely shocked the first turn as he maneuvered, he really, really knew his stuff. He blocked lanes, spread fire, flew in two smaller formations that covered one anothers blind spots, generally played extraordinarily well, and was still eliminated without downing a single Phantom. Echo absolutely wrecked him (of course, Six Sigma Echo uses Sensor Jammer which is especially effective against spread fire).

What I am saying is that when facing Phantoms with low PS ships, your tactics are certainly sound. However, what you are doing is ceding initiative and setting yourself up to capitalize on a mistake, not implementing a winning strategy. It is unfortunately what you need to do, and it is likely (because in the end they are difficult to fly) that the Phantom player will indeed make that mistake. The frustration expressed by those who hate Phantoms comes from games where they played correctly, but the Phantom player did not make a mistake to capitalize upon. Nothing feels as emotionally frustrating as the helplessness of waiting for a mistake that does not come, and watching your list evaporate. It is the same frustration expressed by those who struggle with Fat Han, the feeling of helplessness engendered by defeats at the hands of those two lists (Echo/Whisper and Fat Han) is much, much, MUCH greater than the objective reality of their effectiveness.

Thank you, bright write up.