Sorry but I must chime in. When I read the 1st post it did come off as bragging sorry. Also I still find echo with adv sensors to be extremely hard to block since there are a million different ways she could go. In my area no one flys whisper it's all echo with adv sensors, acd, vi. Extremely hard to track down with mere rookie xwings. You need some type of turret which is why I usually take nera dantel with 2 flachette torpedos. She is a true phantom killer and I'm surprised no one has mentioned her here.

Speaking of which my cousin had some program to show all of echos options when including things like her decloak, plus barrel roll, advanced sensors etc.

I believe there were hundreds of options.

Made is computer slow down and there was a lot of options.

Echo is anything but predictable

We would often discuss if echo was broken or not.

I never thought she was

It stops being anecdotal when it keeps happening. Then it becomes empirical.

You don't actually understand what either of these words mean, do you?

...does so to someone who is reported to have a pretty good grasp of how to play the phantom.

Tell me you read "Expose on a Phantom" without raising an eyebrow and questioning that grasp...

Speaking of which my cousin had some program to show all of echos options when including things like her decloak, plus barrel roll, advanced sensors etc.

I believe there were hundreds of options.

Made is computer slow down and there was a lot of options.

Echo is anything but predictable

We would often discuss if echo was broken or not.

I never thought she was

Ya I remember that I think it was posted on here. It was crazy all the different places she can end up at. There's really no way to predict where she will be.

...does so to someone who is reported to have a pretty good grasp of how to play the phantom.

Tell me you read "Expose on a Phantom" without raising an eyebrow and questioning that grasp...

...does so to someone who is reported to have a pretty good grasp of how to play the phantom.

Tell me you read "Expose on a Phantom" without raising an eyebrow and questioning that grasp...

Because veteran instincts was doing so much good against a bunch of 1s, 4s, and a 9.

Said no one ever.

I'm really looking forward to Scum though... We've been stuck with just two EPTs for so long, it'll be nice to have another choice of two, right?

...does so to someone who is reported to have a pretty good grasp of how to play the phantom.

Tell me you read "Expose on a Phantom" without raising an eyebrow and questioning that grasp...

Because veteran instincts was doing so much good against a bunch of 1s, 4s, and a 9.

Well, once I decide not to take Veteran Instincts, I know that Expose is the go-to EPT for a high value, fragile target that depends on green dice to stay alive...

Said no one ever.

I'm really looking forward to Scum though... We've been stuck with just two EPTs for so long, it'll be nice to have another choice of two, right?

But I could have sworn that anyone flying an ACD phantom just magically evaded all firing arcs, to the complete detriment of the game and all game balance? Seems like you don't need too many green dice if not a single ship can ever pin you down, the slippery dickens.

Why, combined with Fire control system, and oh, look at at that, a weapons engineer, you might have your pick of the litter to gun down whoever you see fit, what with phantoms having naught a firing arc that can touch their ethereal bodies.

So which is it? Do phantoms need to be able to roll green dice or is it a crime for a phantom player to even be fired upon?

Wow, this thread had such promise.

Krynn007, why are you being such a troll? Are you do adamant that the Phantom is death incarnate that any contrary argumentation needs to be so vociferously refuted?

Buhallin, I think we can take his anecdotal->empirical statement as something less than an epistemological treatise. There's no point in being a pedant. (Lingula's David Hume quip, on the other hand, was awesome!)

For my part, I think the 'fly slow' is good advice; something I'll be more conscious of the next time I encounter a Phantom. NorseJedi also had some good stuff on page 1.

That is if you could even shoot the Phantom. Most good Phantom players also arc-dodge so that your swarm can't even shoot the Phantom.

That is if you could even shoot the Phantom. Most good Phantom players also arc-dodge so that your swarm can't even shoot the Phantom.

It's remarkably difficult to arc-dodge 5+ arcs, mate.

The Death Blossom is a thing.

Here's a bit of strategic advice I am seeking:

At the beginning of the game, how much should I plan to ignore whatever is accompanying the Phantom so that I can make the Phantom my exclusive target until it's dead? I imagine that it depends on what's accompanying it (and what I'm flying), but what are some considerations?

That is if you could even shoot the Phantom. Most good Phantom players also arc-dodge so that your swarm can't even shoot the Phantom.

It's remarkably difficult to arc-dodge 5+ arcs, mate.

The Death Blossom is a thing.

The OP's main thesis is concentrated fire. If the Phantom can dodge 2-3 arcs, the remaining 2-3 ships' chances of doing significant damage via concentrated fire to the Phantom is relatively slim.

Here's a bit of strategic advice I am seeking:

At the beginning of the game, how much should I plan to ignore whatever is accompanying the Phantom so that I can make the Phantom my exclusive target until it's dead? I imagine that it depends on what's accompanying it (and what I'm flying), but what are some considerations?

You're going about this the opposite way. Focus down whatever is accompanying the Phantom, then win on time because you're flying 8 ships and it takes you forever to legitimately move. In 60 minute rounds this works. If there is no time limit then you're just done for, as 6 TIEs can do nothing to a Phantom. Death blossoms with 2 attack ships mean nothing as it takes a full broadside to plink off a shield.

You'll lose a TIE or two, he'll lose his decimator, then he won't have enough time to kill enough TIEs to win.

From my experiences the phantom does not do as well in epic games (wich is mostly all ive been playing lately). Sure its got a larger board to fly on but with so many more ship to try and dodge its much easier to block and focus down. Not only that having more ships means its less likely that the phantom will want to flip around behind any ships that threatten it if it means flying into the fire lines of the rest of your ships. The phantom player will think twice about trying to arc dodge against ten ships rather then four.

Another useful tactic I find is using the board to your advantage if the phantom player is stuck running his phantoms down one side of the board thats one less decloak option. Asteroid placement can help with this, also bait your player in deployment. Put a few rookie x's in a corner and see if he deploy's is phantoms opposite them. He might feel confident untill Han, Wedge, Coran, Nera(with torps), probbly Dash (I dont have alot of dash experience so dont take my word on this) or a bunch of other turreted ship engine boost their way in to help back them up. Wich is my next point Boost! more effective on a large ship when trying to chase down a phantom when they get scared and try to run.

There is also the fun things like inflicting the phantom with stress, ion or both. Ion can be a little harder to slap them with but will ruin their day and you'll be drinking their tears.

As the meta evolves and we get to a post scum and tie advanced fix the phantom will lose some luster and I dont belive we'll see a decimator and phantom take worlds this year. People will find other things to complain about. It will go from the great ship to being one of a bunch of good ships.

Oh no! A five attack ship with only 3 agility? How will it ever manage? Why, I can't recall a single ship with three agility that could operate fine for a turn or two without its precious focus tokens.

Do we really have to have this conversation?

Expose is bad because it costs 4 points, takes your action, reduces your defense, and provides no offensive benefit. This has been known since the day it hit. But here's the thing - that was for 3-dice attacks. At 4 dice (for the Phantom) it gets even worse. This makes logical sense - an added die has the same chance to add a damage no matter how many you roll, but more dice means more potential eyeballs for the focus to change. And the math bears it out, with a Phantom using Expose breaking even at best, and giving up as much as 20% of its damage output at worst.

To consider the defensive side, since you mention Vader with Proton Rockets, assuming the Phantom is cloaked (all numbers approximate):

Chance to die to the rocket shot (damage >= 4): 10% if focused, 55% if Exposed

Change to take the hit with no hull damage (damage <= 2): 60% if focused, 14% if Exposed

If not cloaked:

Chance to die to the rocket shot: 48% if focused, 90% if Exposed

Change to take the hit with no hull damage: 12% if focused, 1% if Exposed

So Expose on a Phantom reduces both offensive and defensive capability of the ship whenever it's used. What's not to like, ESPECIALLY when you can use it to handicap 40% of your squad??

But in all seriousness, it's just bad. Really bad. And I have a hard time granting full credit to the capabilities of anyone who doesn't know that, much less argues so vociferously (and insultingly) to defend it.

Wow, this thread had such promise.

Krynn007, why are you being such a troll? Are you do adamant that the Phantom is death incarnate that any contrary argumentation needs to be so vociferously refuted?

Buhallin, I think we can take his anecdotal->empirical statement as something less than an epistemological treatise. There's no point in being a pedant. (Lingula's David Hume quip, on the other hand, was awesome!)

For my part, I think the 'fly slow' is good advice; something I'll be more conscious of the next time I encounter a Phantom. NorseJedi also had some good stuff on page 1.

I never tried to be insulting.

Pardon myself if coming off rude

Congratulated the guy for doing well in his tournament.

I never tried to say anything offensive etc etc

I just don't believe his argument, and his so call tactics. That is all.

Ok maybe it works well in his area.

But I'd like someone to bring a low generic xwings squad to say the national or world's event and see how well they will do.

Maybe I came off the wrong way, I would admit that, but not any ship can so easilly deal with phantoms

I offered a game against him because I wanted to see for myself how easily can his squad deal with them

I mean his wording in this thread implies it's easy

"completely destroy a phantom with any ship"

I can understand defeating them with any ship but "completely destroy" sure sounds pretty easy to me.

Which I don't think using low ps ships with maneuvering that they have, it's not so easy

His strategy is to block.

That's obvious enough, but i don't see how a z95 is going to live or an xwing for that matter.

Z95 die so easily to just about anything.

I just feel this whole thread is a post more of I'm so awesome i can deal with phantoms what's wrong with everyone else.

Btw I never tried to be rude, but seeing some of his replies, he sure is rude imo. With the sarcastic remarks.

Oh no! A five attack ship with only 3 agility? How will it ever manage? Why, I can't recall a single ship with three agility that could operate fine for a turn or two without its precious focus tokens.

Do we really have to have this conversation?

Expose is bad because it costs 4 points, takes your action, reduces your defense, and provides no offensive benefit. This has been known since the day it hit. But here's the thing - that was for 3-dice attacks. At 4 dice (for the Phantom) it gets even worse. This makes logical sense - an added die has the same chance to add a damage no matter how many you roll, but more dice means more potential eyeballs for the focus to change. And the math bears it out, with a Phantom using Expose breaking even at best, and giving up as much as 20% of its damage output at worst.

To consider the defensive side, since you mention Vader with Proton Rockets, assuming the Phantom is cloaked (all numbers approximate):

Chance to die to the rocket shot (damage >= 4): 10% if focused, 55% if Exposed

Change to take the hit with no hull damage (damage <= 2): 60% if focused, 14% if Exposed

If not cloaked:

Chance to die to the rocket shot: 48% if focused, 90% if Exposed

Change to take the hit with no hull damage: 12% if focused, 1% if Exposed

So Expose on a Phantom reduces both offensive and defensive capability of the ship whenever it's used. What's not to like, ESPECIALLY when you can use it to handicap 40% of your squad??

But in all seriousness, it's just bad. Really bad. And I have a hard time granting full credit to the capabilities of anyone who doesn't know that, much less argues so vociferously (and insultingly) to defend it.

This is the part you cherry picked?

You know actually using expose is wholly voluntary right? If you have a bad shot, don't take it.

But that would mean that phantoms end up in bad spots, something we've clearly established as an abomination against nature.

And thus you have misunderstood his argument. Expose is not a good way to increase average damage on a 4 attack ship. Expose and Focus both result in 3.75 average damage on a target locked 4 dice initial attack. At range 1 Focus gives 4.6875 damage and Expose gives 4.5. Plus the Focus attack doesn't always require the focus.

So given Expose reduces your agility by 1 why are you using it?

And thus you have misunderstood his argument. Expose is not a good way to increase average damage on a 4 attack ship. Expose and Focus both result in 3.75 average damage on a target locked 4 dice initial attack. At range 1 Focus gives 4.6875 damage and Expose gives 4.5. Plus the Focus attack doesn't always require the focus.

So given Expose reduces your agility by 1 why are you using it?

because the phantom isnt getting shot anyway.

do you see what i've done? i flipped the entire arguement against expose. if the phantom is good that its never getting fired at, then why the sudden absolute, unflinching need for 4 evade dice?

i'm exposing (pun super intended) the utter hypocrisy of everyone that claims the phantom is both somehow impossible to shoot, AND somehow needs those precious 4 agility.

You get to pick one. you cant have both.

And thus you have misunderstood his argument. Expose is not a good way to increase average damage on a 4 attack ship. Expose and Focus both result in 3.75 average damage on a target locked 4 dice initial attack. At range 1 Focus gives 4.6875 damage and Expose gives 4.5. Plus the Focus attack doesn't always require the focus.

So given Expose reduces your agility by 1 why are you using it?

You can't focus+expose with that phantom build.

5 target locked dice average 3.75 hits, 4 focused 3 hits. FCS+weapons engineer mean you will almost always have a TL on your target. Range one: 6 TL dice=4.5 hits, 5 focused=3.72. Not to mention the chance of getting a crit through. Only focus+target lock can match the average hits of TL+one dice without the decent chance of 5-6 hits which can never happen with 4-5 dice.

It also makes your phantom draw a lot of hate, that's useful in a ship that can dance like echo.

I see what the player was trying to do with Expose/FCS/Eng, and it's an interesting idea. I don't agree that the very marginal improvement in firepower (less than .1 damage gained if you count crits as 1.25 rather than 1, even damage otherwise) is worth 4 points and the loss of your EPT slot, especially because there are a quite a few times where you will not be able to use Expose and you telegraph your next target with your choice of TL. With more support (read, action sharing ala Squad Leader or Fleet Officer) this might be viable.

As for Phantoms needing to "choose" between being untargetable and needing greens, that is a bit of a red herring. Depending on match up, the Phantom (Echo specifically, Whisper much less so) can be extremely hard to target. Not "impossible for anyone to fire on", but definitely "impossible to focus multiple ships against" barring major misplay by the Phantom. Green dice are at their most effective when combined with focus and facing a single shot, so the Phantom is BOTH extremely difficult to target and reliant on its green dice. A loss of a single die means an increase in expected damage of 5/8 of a point under those circumstances, and for a ship with only 4 health in the first place that is a very big deal. Alternately, against turrets the Phantom may be utterly reliant on its green dice. Expose would be of some marginal use in the first instance, and completely terrible in the second.

What you propose as a solution/method/tactic for dealing with Phantoms is correct insofar as it goes. Slow approaches along the board edge make the Phantoms job much more difficult. Which is why a canny Phantom player will take the initiative against an all-generic list. He is ahead from turn one, and will win the game if/when it goes to time. If you are playing with draws (non-elim rounds) he is wise to wait until you k-turn and come in, exposing himself to a single round of actionless shooting. If he can eliminate any one of your ships, he can then retreat and force you to come to him.

There is a reason why Phantoms are feared, and it is not incompetence on the part of the fearful. Jean Christie (sp.) the french national champion used an 8 TIE swarm and was eliminated by Six Sigma at Worlds, and I guarantee you that man knows how to play. I was completely shocked the first turn as he maneuvered, he really, really knew his stuff. He blocked lanes, spread fire, flew in two smaller formations that covered one anothers blind spots, generally played extraordinarily well, and was still eliminated without downing a single Phantom. Echo absolutely wrecked him (of course, Six Sigma Echo uses Sensor Jammer which is especially effective against spread fire).

What I am saying is that when facing Phantoms with low PS ships, your tactics are certainly sound. However, what you are doing is ceding initiative and setting yourself up to capitalize on a mistake, not implementing a winning strategy. It is unfortunately what you need to do, and it is likely (because in the end they are difficult to fly) that the Phantom player will indeed make that mistake. The frustration expressed by those who hate Phantoms comes from games where they played correctly, but the Phantom player did not make a mistake to capitalize upon. Nothing feels as emotionally frustrating as the helplessness of waiting for a mistake that does not come, and watching your list evaporate. It is the same frustration expressed by those who struggle with Fat Han, the feeling of helplessness engendered by defeats at the hands of those two lists (Echo/Whisper and Fat Han) is much, much, MUCH greater than the objective reality of their effectiveness.

Yeah, I had to face the double Phantom 86 points build with 2 alpha squadrons with targeting computers, and 5 academies. First round of shooting lost an interceptor. He then parked his echo on a rock and I was able to kill it, then I lost an academy. At this point it was 68 points of ties against super whisper and I essentially had lost the game. I had one good 3 hit roll with my interceptor and he blocked it.

When I have 68 points of Ties left, and you have 40~ and I'm at a disadvantage, something is wrong with this game.

It also makes your phantom draw a lot of hate, that's useful in a ship that can dance like echo.

FCS+weapons engineer mean you will almost always have a TL on your target. Range one: 6 TL dice=4.5 hits, 5 focused=3.72. Not to mention the chance of getting a crit through. Only focus+target lock can match the average hits of TL+one dice without the decent chance of 5-6 hits which can never happen with 4-5 dice.

So why didn't you give the target lock to the focus side? You ran one as Expose+FCS, and the other as Focus... and left off the FCS. If you compare them evenly, then 6TL does indeed average 4.5 damage - and 5FTL averages 4.7. If you're on that first shot where you don't have the TL, then Expose (6 dice) generates 3, and Focus generates 3.75.

So again - Expose actually decreases your offensive output compared to just Focusing. I didn't run exhaustive comparisons, but the best I can find is at R2-3, where 5TL=3.75, and 4FTL=3.75, and it breaks even.

do you see what i've done? i flipped the entire arguement against expose. if the phantom is good that its never getting fired at, then why the sudden absolute, unflinching need for 4 evade dice?

i'm exposing (pun super intended) the utter hypocrisy of everyone that claims the phantom is both somehow impossible to shoot, AND somehow needs those precious 4 agility.

You get to pick one. you cant have both.

This is absolute gibberish. There is no hypocrisy in it - the Phantom can be very hard to get shots on, and when you do, those shots have to get through a lot of green dice. So yeah, you can have both. Note I said "hard" - nobody claims it's truly impossible in every situation - but congratulations, you knocked that straw man down with authority!