I've been bragging (shut up I'm proud) of my recent top 4 finish with 2 bandits, 2 rookies, and Keyan farlnader (Adv sensors, stay on target) lately, which included beating a whisper list in the top 8.

Tonight, I decided to try the same strategy for the imperials.

I flew 2 academies, 2 naked saber squadron interceptors, and darth vader with proton rockets and elusiveness. All the point values were equal, and I flew them exactly the same as I did the rebels.

I was able to kill echo in 2 consecutive games within 3 rounds. Now, it wasn't an optimal echo. If my memory serves, she was kitted out with expose, FCS, weapons engineer, and adv. cloaking.

Expose was a fun choice, and it wiped an earlier rexler/Jonus/OGP build I used. But that's not the point.

The point is:

"Phantoms can't be beaten by generics

Interceptors without PTL/autothrusters are useless.

Rookie x wings can't compete

Turrets can't be beaten"

Is all a load of crap.

If I can chase down 3 different phantoms, armed with a handful of generic fighters, then guess what? So can you.

Take a handful of ships, and slowly fly them in which ever direction the phantom is moving. It's not hard to start, as the first moves a phantom makes are generally broad, covering a lot of ground. Once it's fully committed to a flight path, it will get antsy and come to you, forcing it to be more aggressive and less defensive. Then you've got 3-5 ships to shoot at it, and by the 3rd ship it won't have any tokens left and will be at the mercy of its green dice. With that many ships, it's pretty easy to block up decloak lanes and get the shots you want.

So you plan against a bad phantom player?

Echo is not echo across the board (you can say that again)

The fact that you beat the same ship with the same tactics twice in a row should say more about your opponent that your abilities to divine strategies for beating phantoms seemingly invisible to the rest of us.

The fact that the phantom player had echo in range to take enough shots to kill her by round three - twice in a row - is the real story here.

I've been bragging (shut up I'm proud) of my recent top 4 finish with 2 bandits, 2 rookies, and Keyan farlnader (Adv sensors, stay on target) lately, which included beating a whisper list in the top 8.

Tonight, I decided to try the same strategy for the imperials.

I flew 2 academies, 2 naked saber squadron interceptors, and darth vader with proton rockets and elusiveness. All the point values were equal, and I flew them exactly the same as I did the rebels.

I was able to kill echo in 2 consecutive games within 3 rounds. Now, it wasn't an optimal echo. If my memory serves, she was kitted out with expose, FCS, weapons engineer, and adv. cloaking.

Expose was a fun choice, and it wiped an earlier rexler/Jonus/OGP build I used. But that's not the point.

The point is:

"Phantoms can't be beaten by generics

Interceptors without PTL/autothrusters are useless.

Rookie x wings can't compete

Turrets can't be beaten"

Is all a load of crap.

If I can chase down 3 different phantoms, armed with a handful of generic fighters, then guess what? So can you.

Yes, they *can* beat phantoms. Unless, of course, the people you are speaking to are actually unskilled players that want to blame the game design instead of their lack of skill.

Yes,

So you plan against a bad phantom player?

Echo is not echo across the board (you can say that again)

The fact that you beat the same ship with the same tactics twice in a row should say more about your opponent that your abilities to divine strategies for beating phantoms seemingly invisible to the rest of us.

The fact that the phantom player had echo in range to take enough shots to kill her by round three - twice in a row - is the real story here.

Not really. The first time, echo was right at my 3 o'clock, just out of range 3. So I turned vader and the 2 interceptors 3 hard, right at her. That disrupted the forward decloak, gave me three shots, and only left her with one, since she had to go sideways instead of coming right at my exposed flank. The second time, I just spread my arcs wide.

Coverage makes phantoms spazzy.

I also beat a very good whisper player with generics. Guess we'll ignore that one though.

The way to beat Phantoms:

Stress Stress Stress STress

Trust me, It works!

So you plan against a bad phantom player?

Echo is not echo across the board (you can say that again)

The fact that you beat the same ship with the same tactics twice in a row should say more about your opponent that your abilities to divine strategies for beating phantoms seemingly invisible to the rest of us.

The fact that the phantom player had echo in range to take enough shots to kill her by round three - twice in a row - is the real story here.

Dude, way to invalidate the original post. Jeebus.

Taking someone's attempt at being inspiring and saying that it's all up to the incompotence of their foes is incredibly bad mannered.

Now, as far as the Phantom + Advanced Cloak + Veteran's Instinct goes, it's above par, as far as usefulness of a ship goes. It is not immortal. It is not omnipotent. It is merely powerful.

The game is not so far off the deep end that you cannot deal with it, or that there is only one method of dealing with it. It's simply the highest spike on the graph of Usefullness we've encountered thus far.

You don't even have to run a stress list. You just block. Like every other ship.

So, where's the explanation of the tactics involved? The thread title indicates that this thread will teach one how to do this, not that it's just a bragging post.

Sorry, I got carried away.

Play slow. One and two banks. It's really easy to react to where the phantom will be, because it's gonna be making broad movements to start. You just slow track it, and then you spread your ships apart, so that just about everyone can fire on it while it's still trying to figure out how it got chased into a 6 inch square on the corner.

Imperials are a little harder to slow play it, but you can do it with one turns and barrel rolls.

I found having high pilot skill and 3 attack was enough. I had VI Wes and Wedge take range three shots at Whisper (Whisper had no shots to use ACD) and killed her in the first exchange of fire of the game. The Imperial player expected me to swing left and come down on either the Doomshuttle or Soontir, but I was quite confident I could hunt Fel down later and the shuttle wasn't really that threatening to me.

Not generics but they definitely worked. I'll also agree on stress being a very effective way to deal with Phantoms. Ion works for similar reasons.

I have a friend (a frequent commenter here) that has only lost one game to a named phantom since October flying that way.

It works so well he does it with 3 x wings.

So you plan against a bad phantom player?

Echo is not echo across the board (you can say that again)

The fact that you beat the same ship with the same tactics twice in a row should say more about your opponent that your abilities to divine strategies for beating phantoms seemingly invisible to the rest of us.

The fact that the phantom player had echo in range to take enough shots to kill her by round three - twice in a row - is the real story here.

Dude, way to invalidate the original post. Jeebus.

Taking someone's attempt at being inspiring and saying that it's all up to the incompotence of their foes is incredibly bad mannered.

^ this. +1 multiple times over.

Sorry but I just don't buy it.

Yes it is possible to kill a Phantom with generic pilots and etc, but it is a whole lot easier to do if the phantom player is not very good with it.

I mean to have an xwing block echo decloak path? What's the rest of his squad doing.

Surely it's not echo vs 3-4 xwings.

There are some really good players in my area, and echo and Whisper are nasty

To me if you really want to brag play on vassal against an experienced phantom player.

Defeat them with ease using your list and tactics and then I'd say your right.

As it is now we don't know who or what your phantom opponent are like.

But I have a feeling that are not very good.

From the look of their load outs I don't think they are very Good. Why weapons engineer? I think one target lock is more than enough. Recon specialist, rebel captive are much better choices for the obvious reasons. Expose is not a good choice for echo either imo.

Uses her action.

Reduce her agility on a ship that is already very fragile.

Leaves her with no modifiers especially for that first crucial combat round, and you won't have any modifiers till second round from fire control systems.

So I also wonder what did he have on the other ships

I can't help wonder wth is the other guy doing with the rest of his squad

It's all these things along with your remarks saying both games you had won by round three, I mean not to take the wind out of your sail, but really? You can't expect anyone to think this player knew what he was doing

Phantoms are definitely not unbeatable.

I've seen them die some terrible ways, but I've also seen them wreak havoc.

Certain lists and ships are better at dealing with them, and generic xwings are not among them

Actually I would be up for vassal game. Though it's hard for me to get on with wife having new baby and all, but if you up for a ggame on the weekend evening time ( east coast Canada here) but let me know

Anecdotal evidence is best evidence.

So the sum total of the advice given is "Play slow"?

Great that you're trying to help and all, and coverage is good, yes. But if you're playing slow against a 2-ship elite list then surely all they have to do is kill 1 generic (not hard to do when the Phantom is rolling 4 red dice + FCS lock and 5-6 green dice with focus vs your 2-3 red dice with whatever and 2-3 green dice) and scoot away, and you'll lose when the clock runs out?

I get the concept of keeping wide coverage, but I would have thought that was a pretty obvious thing to do when playing against something like a Squint or a Phantom? It's certainly not a "how to" or foolproof method for blowing them up.

If it is so easy to predict where the Phantom is going, then you might as well put Enhanced Scopes on it. No more blocking and you always get your action.

That's just it

If it was so easy them why would we see so many posts and etc about phantoms, and even in so many top lists.

They are easy when the player using them doesn't know how to use them will and make good use of upgrade options.

I can understand some people way of thinking, want to break away from the norm, but there is a reason why so many use the same options. Because it works so well.

Recon specialist is the way to go on echo. Have a focus for defense

Weapons engineer doesn't help her defense.

Also gaining a second target lock is not really needed. You get more use from recon specialist imo, or rebel captive.

Idk, but again I really don't think the opponent is a good Phantom player.

As i said, if I can get the time. I'd be more than happy to have a game on vassal.

I'm by no means a great player, but I've gotten the hang on the Phantom's pretty well and have used them a lot.

I do feel confident that I could beat a list like that with echo and friends

I mean if anything I'd lose and learn a valuable tactic which I'm all for. Or I'd win and move on

Weapons engineer was there to help offset the use of expose. You get to pick a second target, so that when you finish with the current one, you can whip around to fight an already locked ship.

And yeah, it was sub optimal, but I only had one two dice ship above ps 4. And this guy has flown nothing but echo/mini swarm for nearly a year. He's only started branching out since Christmas.

The rest of his list was Krassis, HLC, Rec spec, counter measures, prox mines, ion pulse missiles.

Again, yeah it was sub optimal. But I still got the drop on echo with 4 generics. And I got the drop on whisper with four generics in tournament play.

It stops being anecdotal when it keeps happening. Then it becomes empirical.

It stops being anecdotal when it keeps happening. Then it becomes empirical.

I feel as if a million David Humes suddenly cried out in terror and were silenced.

I have to agree with the OP in some degree. The group I'm apart of got into this discussion yesterday. I, personally, find Phantoms/Squints predictable but can see where the frustration comes from. That conversation went pretty much the same as this thread: if you beat a phantom with something that isn't a turret or shooting first it must be the phantom player's fault and not your flying. Our talk extended to if Fel gets popular running Stealth Device and Autothrusters would Lt Blount see more play just to pop off stealth devices. It broke down quickly to if Blount can even get a shot EVER on Fel.

Well forgive me to remain sceptical

While I can agree that any Phantom can be destroyed by just about anything, I still don't think it's as easy as you say it is. That is with a all generic pilots list. If you were using high ps ships I would not be as sceptical

Either your extremely good player

Or

Your opponents are not very good.

Or both

And while I won't deny your a good player, I'm sure you are, I still fail to see how a phantom could let him get shot at,

I can understand letting one rookie have a shot, but to have multiples In a round? especially since he is moving last.

I've used phantoms a lot

I've killed many ships and won many games.

I've also lost many phantoms due to bad playing on my part. Taking a gamble and put it in harms way and then just some flat out bad rolls

Rule #1 Don't ever and I mean EVER rely on the green dice

Rule #2 If you have to stay cloaked. Stay cloak a phantom not shooting for a round is a lot better than a dead phantom

And ya, that list altogether just sounds bad.

No offense to your friend.

I can kind of understand the thinking behind having weapons engineer but i just don't see it with expose working well.

Especially in a two ship list, you need some defense. Weapons engineer with expose on a phantom just sounds bad

Is your opponent good at building lists? Because the krassis one is far from optimal.

He could have easily fit in a academy pilot, or better pilot / upgrades etc

I would think his squad be very easy to tear apart, without the need to even build a phantom counter.

If he flies the phantom like he builds, I still wonder how well of a phantom flier he is

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I'll remain sceptical.

If it really was that easy then everyone would be doing it. You would see less turrets and the whole phantom fear would not be such a craz. I'm sure your not the first to try slow play, and not the last

Maybe you can do well against the people in your area that fly phantoms, but my challenge is, try playing against some others.

Which is why i recommend vassal. Myself or others. I'd like to see myself how well this would work against a more competitive list

As for your tournament, congratulations.

It's nice to see something other than phantoms and fat turrets in top spots

When generics when at regional or world's you just might convince some people.

Write a guide on it. I'll even make you pretty pictures for it like I did for X-wing Under Fire.

If it really was that easy then everyone would be doing it.

Not true. Anyone can copy a list. Flying strategies can't be copied off the internet.

When generics when at regional or world's you just might convince some people.

They are already. If you mean all generics, that's actively discouraged because then it just becomes a contest of maximising ship numbers.

While I agree with your statement

Anyone can copy a list, but how they fly it will determine the oiutcome.

Still if it was so easy, then why don't top tier players use them more often

If you were to take two equally skilled players. One has a solid phantom list, and the other a solid low ps xwing list, who would you put money on?

This is the lists phantoms were designed for by ffg (or so I believe) in order to break away from at the time low ps meta.

To encourage players to go more high ps

Fly in formation, the phantom will get behind you with ease.

Break formation, covers more area, but now now harder to focus fire, and again the phantom will just get behind it

Try to block the decloak lanes, the phantom player is knowledgeable enough to know this and especially with echo keep his distance

I'm not trying to say it is impossible to happen, but i don't think it's as easy as the op says it is.

Which kind of leads me to believe the phantom players are not all that skilled with it

Like I said, I've used it a ton. I've seen it go down in flames many time, but not near as much as it has won games.

Especially against the lists the op has described.

Edit

Another thing the op says which leads me to believe that the phantom players are not all that skilled with it

The op says how easy they are to predict.

That there is one way to decloak

This is only half true.

When using echo I look at my main move, and then if my opponent moves to counter it, where would my second choice be, and select a move that will work best for plan A or B

I don't stick to plan A, but usually have a plan B and C. C being usually a move i don't get to shoot but live for another day, and in this case if he is busy chasing echo, that meansy other ships is getting to do their thing