@OP: I'm sorry to hear that you're not enjoying the game, but I'm not sure why you're here. It doesn't sound as if you're interested in reconsidering your position or even in waiting a few weeks to see what happens to the game when we drop Scum and Villainy in the middle of it, so... why are you here instead of on eBay writing up an ad for your collection?

[yet another "EXTERMINATUS" meme]

That particular gag is getting old fast.

The Phantom is blatantly broken. It has 4 base attack dice, has essentially 4 base agility, it gets a free 2 barrel roll, its action, a free target lock, and another shot if it somehow misses its first that the Target Lock can be used on.

The Phantom is the cause of:

1.) The death of swarms. A swarm of 2 attack dice ships is worthless against a Phantom. You'll never get shots on it, and when you do they'll miss. If it's a double Phantom build it's just an auto lose. Nothing in this game is as much of an auto lose matchup as a Super Phantom vs say, 48 points of Academy Tie Fighters.

2.) The elimination of PS bidding unless you're at 9/10 or higher PS. Remember how the Phantom was supposed to make named pilots more appealing than generics? If you can't get to 10 PS forget it.

3.) The creation of the big dumb fat turret list. It's the only thing that can deal with a super Phantom that isn't terrible against everything else.

4.) Half the reason why no one flies a Defender. By the time you slap an HLC on one you could have a super Phantom.

5.) The creation of the rock paper scissors meta we're in.

6.) The elimination of Interceptors from the meta because everyone is flying a turret to not have to deal with Phantom shenanigans. Also because the Phantom does the Interceptor's job better. Inteceptor can't sideways barrel roll 2 before moving followed by a hard 1 turn.

3.) The creation of the big dumb fat turret list. It's the only thing that can deal with a super Phantom that isn't terrible against everything else.

This is aggravated by the fact that the swarms, natural counter to fat turrets, have been scared away by all the phantoms. So phantoms cause the rise of turrets and the loss of swarms, which cause the rise of even more turrets, bringing us to the super stale meta we see now.

@OP: I'm sorry to hear that you're not enjoying the game, but I'm not sure why you're here. It doesn't sound as if you're interested in reconsidering your position or even in waiting a few weeks to see what happens to the game when we drop Scum and Villainy in the middle of it, so... why are you here instead of on eBay writing up an ad for your collection?

[yet another "EXTERMINATUS" meme]

That particular gag is getting old fast.

Thanks for the condolences, I appreciate the sentiment. I'm partly venting, partly requesting agreement to show myself I'm not wrong and partly looking for help or signs of hope for the future.

I am not resistant to changing my mind, but this is not just my opinion based on nothing. Many many others share it, and I've seen it played out over hundreds of games. I'm not being boorish and inflexible because someone on here posts that they beat a phantom or a fat dash one particular time and so therefore I'm wrong.

Mainly I'm here because it sucks, I used to love this game and now it's just not interesting. To me anyway.

But. I'll hold off for scum and villainy, however I see a worrying trend in this game as of wave four. Too much drastic change, too much departure from the icons of the original trilogy, too-rigidly defined rock paper scissors archetypes.

Maybe I'll just sell everything after wave 3

I'm sorry you aren't having fun. I just read the article by Sable Griphon about his Bomber Prox mine list. It's got me thinking about what I cad do with my three bombers.

I say hang onto your stuff. I've kept my Magic and Jyhad cards years after I stopped playing. Having them still makes me happy.

It reads to me like you may be too triggered to see past the current meta. A few months off and new tourney results could shine light into the gloom.

Thanks for the reply and well wishes. I don't know what triggered means in this context, but I reckon I'd be something like "annoyed"?

It's too much money to sit on in the hopes it'll become interesting again. I don't like having stuff sitting around, it bugs me.

Triggered is a mental state with anger or annoyance as a major component. The big thing is that the state directly attacks the ability of a triggered person to reason creatively and prejudices the thinker to a defensive fight or flight mindset. If you have ever looked back at angry decisions and wondered what you were thinking, you are looking back at a triggered state from a nontriggered state.

I don't know you and won't play amateur psychologist, I simply want to suggest caution before making any decisions that would be hard to recover from.

I'm sorry you aren't having fun. I just read the article by Sable Griphon about his Bomber Prox mine list. It's got me thinking about what I cad do with my three bombers.

I say hang onto your stuff. I've kept my Magic and Jyhad cards years after I stopped playing. Having them still makes me happy.

It reads to me like you may be too triggered to see past the current meta. A few months off and new tourney results could shine light into the gloom.

Thanks for the reply and well wishes. I don't know what triggered means in this context, but I reckon I'd be something like "annoyed"?

It's too much money to sit on in the hopes it'll become interesting again. I don't like having stuff sitting around, it bugs me.

Triggered is a mental state with anger or annoyance as a major component. The big thing is that the state directly attacks the ability of a triggered person to reason creatively and prejudices the thinker to a defensive fight or flight mindset. If you have ever looked back at angry decisions and wondered what you were thinking, you are looking back at a triggered state from a nontriggered state.

I don't know you and won't play amateur psychologist, I simply want to suggest caution before making any decisions that would be hard to recover from.

You're not my real dad!!

From the little time I've been here i've gathered that alot of this burn out and negative association comes from the tournament meta. My community in respect to the competitive side of things has always seen the prevalence of a particular archetype that is particularly successful in the tournament meta. Regardless of what nerfs or changes happen in the game a dominant archetype will always be around because a tournament encourages players to utilise and gravitate to whats deemed efficient to ensure success. Nothing wrong with that and regardless of a games balance it'll always occur, I don't think i've seen any game that doesn't feature this.

I know the sentiment has already come up, but rather than giving up on the game entirely why not shift your focus to playing purely casually? Without the tangible rewards associated with tournament play you should find more people inclined to play their own unique or 'less competitive' lists. My group particularly has quite a bit of fun playing sometimes games featuring only generics to play out some of the less important skirmishes that no doubt occur across the universe. Scenario play and objectives in games also create some enjoyable experiences that are well worth giving a go too.

Just try JOINING the "Meta" for a while. You will see that there are lots of tactics still to be had. Position, asteroids, all of it still matters, it just so happens that many frequently used squads have tools to make them more flexible, especially with their setup.

There really is a LOT of great tactics that are missed out on by shunning the meta. Once you embrace it, you realize that you still have to find ways to win Mirror Matchups, or against your counters, or against those out-in-left-field lists that you didn't plan for. You get matched up against ALL of that during tournaments, not just what your "meta" squad is built to handle. It's still a really fun game when that wall of pride is knocked down.

And honestly, some weird ass lists can still win, or weird upgrade choices.

If you really DO love the game, there is no harm in embracing what it has become, and know that some day it will grow into something better.

Heck, I tell you, Wave 3, I was getting quite bored. All the best combinations were pretty close to hammered out. I think the game NEEDED some shaking up, but that might just be me.

It's entirely up to your play group. I too fear the day the game goes stale because people only fly one type of list. It's for exactly that reason why I don't play competitively. WIth my roommate, it's never the same game twice. Today we played two games. The first, I brought a Y-wing with scum upgrade proxies, Ten Numb with a mangler, and Keyan with SoT. Went up against a BH/HLC, Major Rhymer (with VI? Weird, I know), and a couple fighters. Not a list you're likely to see anywhere else.

Second, I flew three named A-wings against a Defender and three named TIEs. Neither one of them are particularly competitive, but it was a very exciting game, and in the end, My A-wing's maneuverability and some good positioning choices won that round for me.

We don't have an issue with people running the same lists over and over, because that's boring. Play for fun. Don't get sucked into the whole "I need this or I won't win: mindset. I honestly thought flying 3 A-wings would make me lose, but I wanted the challenge, the excitement, the risk, the fun.

And that's ultimately what the game is about.

I'm sorry you aren't having fun. I just read the article by Sable Griphon about his Bomber Prox mine list. It's got me thinking about what I cad do with my three bombers.

I say hang onto your stuff. I've kept my Magic and Jyhad cards years after I stopped playing. Having them still makes me happy.

It reads to me like you may be too triggered to see past the current meta. A few months off and new tourney results could shine light into the gloom.

Thanks for the reply and well wishes. I don't know what triggered means in this context, but I reckon I'd be something like "annoyed"?

It's too much money to sit on in the hopes it'll become interesting again. I don't like having stuff sitting around, it bugs me.

Triggered is a mental state with anger or annoyance as a major component. The big thing is that the state directly attacks the ability of a triggered person to reason creatively and prejudices the thinker to a defensive fight or flight mindset. If you have ever looked back at angry decisions and wondered what you were thinking, you are looking back at a triggered state from a nontriggered state.

I don't know you and won't play amateur psychologist, I simply want to suggest caution before making any decisions that would be hard to recover from.

You're not my real dad!!

No Force Kin, I AM Your Father!

Gee, the designer of the game? Yeah dunno how he could do that.

And why does such a big deal get made out of this single example? Look at every other tournament result for a much much more compelling reflection of. What is actually happening in this game. You'll. See that it is absolutely NOT tournaments being won (ignoring the fact the person who flew it was the game designer) by a wing builds, or any other novelty builds.

It's the exception that proves the rule.

Why do you think, far and away more than the same people, we see the same list archetypes at tournament finals?

Gee maybe the game designer got that idea from another player that did the same thing a week before him? And more uncommon builds are winning right now then straight "meta" lists.

The Phantom is blatantly broken. It has 4 base attack dice, has essentially 4 base agility, it gets a free 2 barrel roll, its action, a free target lock, and another shot if it somehow misses its first that the Target Lock can be used on.

The Phantom is the cause of:

1.) The death of swarms. A swarm of 2 attack dice ships is worthless against a Phantom. You'll never get shots on it, and when you do they'll miss. If it's a double Phantom build it's just an auto lose. Nothing in this game is as much of an auto lose matchup as a Super Phantom vs say, 48 points of Academy Tie Fighters.

2.) The elimination of PS bidding unless you're at 9/10 or higher PS. Remember how the Phantom was supposed to make named pilots more appealing than generics? If you can't get to 10 PS forget it.

3.) The creation of the big dumb fat turret list. It's the only thing that can deal with a super Phantom that isn't terrible against everything else.

4.) Half the reason why no one flies a Defender. By the time you slap an HLC on one you could have a super Phantom.

5.) The creation of the rock paper scissors meta we're in.

6.) The elimination of Interceptors from the meta because everyone is flying a turret to not have to deal with Phantom shenanigans. Also because the Phantom does the Interceptor's job better. Inteceptor can't sideways barrel roll 2 before moving followed by a hard 1 turn.

1. Swarms flown well are terrifying for a phantom player, this statement is invalid. Blocking is invaluable against a phantom.

2. PS bid still works fine, but people are overly sensitive to phantoms. PS 5-7 has always been a sore spot. Sure you might not have to worry about PS bid but honestly its been that way since wave 2 with Han, but god forbid we forget that fact.

3. Turret lists being fat have existed since Han+Chewie, again I love the rose tinted glasses.

4. Reason no one flies a defender is because they don't understand it and so it must be bad.

5. Lists have been hard countered since the beginning. Some works well against this but not that list since wave 2, people just get a stupid mentality on this and start a self fulfilling prophecy.

6. I fought 4 Hans in regionals (then a dual falcon list in AIA tournament with same result) before the phantom, which is the counter to interceptors and never existed before the phantom, right? Wrong, I even had one over confident person see my list and thought he had an easy win. Didn't lose a single ship (3 ints and a tie).

OP won't get a single tear from me. I am not taking the moral high road of sympathy anymore. If you are bad at the game, play it more, don't complain that other players are better then you. Phantoms only needs to be countered by competence, hard counters are the easy way out. People that believe the environment is stagnant usually are the ones that tend to "net deck" lists just as much.

I just had this discussion with someone, i can see how newbies fear the phantom. it was the same way when they saw good interceptor pilots. Though the phantom does have a bit more leniency on piloting, most people still can't fly it worth a dang.

Seriously though OP, if you are having an issue with ships, play more you will get the hang of how to play against them without counters. If your complaint is against EU stuff don't play with any EU stuff but I mean don't play howlrunner, any rogue squadron pilot outside of Wedge, Biggs, or Luke, any named Y-wing pilot, etc etc. If you think its just a money grab for expansions, well you aren't wrong the company needs to stay in business some how, nice thing though is you know how many cards you get and what is in the box before buying it, how nice!

If you answer is walking away, please do so, I'm sure it will be for the better for everyone. That mentality of yours is just as toxic as the "meta" lists you complain about.

That will end my rant of this rant.

[yet another "EXTERMINATUS" meme]

That particular gag is getting old fast.

Have you seen the book? The Blood Angels and Flesh Tearers detachments are so-so, but the Mephrit Dynasty stuff is pretty darned good.

... stuff ...

Maybe OP just doesn't find the game fun anymore, an opinion he's more than welcome to have without being accused of being a rank 1 amateur. "Git gud" is hardly a reasonable argument in favor of the current state of the game.

Maybe OP just doesn't find the game fun anymore, an opinion he's more than welcome to have without being accused of being a rank 1 amateur. "Git gud" is hardly a reasonable argument in favor of the current state of the game.

Take a look through his post history for a sec here. "Git gud" is actually an applicable counter in this situation.

I'll confess that I think Waves 4 and 5 don't tickle me as much as Waves 1-3. They dig too deep into what I think is an ill-considered part of the EU (except, the Z-95, which I think is perfectly fitting.) I also think that the game designers screwed up by making the Phantom too 'kewl'.

I also miss seeing as many X-Wings and Y-Wings for me to shoot down. (I play Empire.)

But, despite that, I think the game is still tremendous fun, and I really enjoy the people who play the game with me at the FLGSs. I am also disagreement with the build-determinism, that if you have the wrong build that you should just give up the match and concede. I don't play meta lists (aside from the occasional TIE swarm, because they're fun), and would be a little embarrassed to do so. I do that, in part, because because I think net-decking is a little meh. Also, because I don't bring a predictable list, then I won't be as predictable, and if I'm not predictable, then it will be less easy for them to fly against me.

So, if you don't like the current meta, don't fly the current meta. Nevertheless, learn the current meta, and figure out what its Achilles heels are. If you're good at this, then you can punish people for playing the meta.

The game started great but the developers went overboard with novelty. The main attractive feature of this game for me was the balance between the two different factions and the recognizable Star Wars lore. That's mostly been dissolved now and I just don't wish to play a game that's gone too far down the path of novelty.

This is what I avoid when playing. Personally, I have no interest in tournaments or competitive play. One of the reasons I love this game is because we can watch classic SW ships battle it out. All of my models are original trilogy only. My small gaming group are a bunch of friends with similar interests. We have no interest in seeing a board full of what looks like an EU salad. That's not fun for us.

So, swing over to my neck of the woods. You won''t find a phantom or YT 2400 here.

My advice, take an OT only stance, find some people with similar interest and play with them. This is what is fun for me and this is what I will stick to.

Maybe OP just doesn't find the game fun anymore, an opinion he's more than welcome to have without being accused of being a rank 1 amateur. "Git gud" is hardly a reasonable argument in favor of the current state of the game.

Take a look through his post history for a sec here. "Git gud" is actually an applicable counter in this situation.

I think being told that you need to get better to enjoy a game just sort of underscores a problem with the game in general, don't you? This isn't exactly Dark Souls we're talking about. There are some compelling cases to be made for irregular lists winning at events, but just how good does a person need to be to pull that off? Should a person want to play at that level just to enjoy winning against the current meta trends?

I'm concerned about whether or not these dominant lists are a barrier to newer players. On the one hand you could say that the less a person knows about the meta, the more they'll enjoy themselves. That's more or less true at my shop presently, where more people are getting into the game without being bludgeoned about by the meta. They don't feel restricted in the kinds of lists they play, because nobody is forcing them to play against dominant archetypes. On the other hand, I have to wonder if they'd have a prolonged interest in the game if somebody like myself stepped in and just beat them over the head with Fat Han or some Phantoms.

Here's a question I think everyone should consider: is there a tangible line we can trace that separates those competent enough to compete against the dominant lists from those who aren't, and if so, where do we place that line relative to the amount of fun we should be having?

I think being told that you need to get better to enjoy a game just sort of underscores a problem with the game in general, don't you? This isn't exactly Dark Souls we're talking about. There are some compelling cases to be made for irregular lists winning at events, but just how good does a person need to be to pull that off? Should a person want to play at that level just to enjoy winning against the current meta trends?

But he's talking about the freaking competitive meta here, not casual games. He doesn't have to be capable of playing competitively, but if he /does/ try, then accepting the need to improve IS necessary (this goes for EVERYONE playing competitively, ya think Paul Heaver /stops/ trying to improve?). And that won't happen if he blames it on the game rather than himself.

I think being told that you need to get better to enjoy a game just sort of underscores a problem with the game in general, don't you? This

I'm concerned about whether or not these dominant lists are a barrier to newer players. On the one hand you could say that the less a person knows about the meta, the more they'll enjoy themselves. That's more or less true at my shop presently, where more people are getting into the game without being bludgeoned about by the meta. They don't feel restricted in the kinds of lists they play, because nobody is forcing them to play against dominant archetypes. On the other hand, I have to wonder if they'd have a prolonged interest in the game if somebody like myself stepped in and just beat them over the head with Fat Han or some Phantoms.

Honestly, I wouldn't look too kindly on someone stepping into friendly games with a top-tier meta stomp list, I wouldn't consider it sporting.

BUT, you know what? Most casual players don't have a freaking clue what a "Fat Han" list IS. They'll fight it as best they can, and I wouldn't be in the least surprised to see them win against it either.

It's the people who /do/ know what it is (but haven't actually gotten good) who complain about it so much, because they know just enough to be scared, and THAT screws everything up.

Treating lists as massive meta boogeymen is more detrimental to fun on casual players' part than anything else.

And now I don't know where I was going with this.

Sometimes the line between a casual and competitive environment are blurred. Should everyone who values winning play solely at events, or can they be allowed to use dominant lists outside of tournaments? Where is the onus to power oneself down under such circumstances? Perhaps the meta is just a boogeyman, but I don't see many people considering that the casual sphere may be just as nebulous and ill-defined. The lists are out there, and they can be unfun no matter where you play them.

In my scene there seems to be a definite difference between what people bring to the casual Sunday afternoon or Monday evening at the FLGS and what they bring to tournaments. At tournaments, the bring lists much more in tune with the meta that we discuss here on the forum.

It's not for us to decide what people should play at either, but we have some clue as to what people do play.

A lot of the phantom issue, is probably a phantom illusion. I think there's a great amount of noise about the phantom, as well as the new hotness that is dash, and decimator. Fat Han and all the other meta boogeymen are that - people are flocking to what's been seen and heard as good, whether it is the best or not.

We have lots of anecdotes, and we've not got a whole lot of data yet. Data is starting to come in from tournaments, and we're seeing different things - but we need to wait until store champ's are over, and then everything will shift when scum hits. Phantoms aren't going away - but they're certainly not "auto-win". The list combinations grow exponentially with each release, we're going to find an environment with some nasty predators - skill is becoming even more important as we go on.

People will find more counters. There are certainly "super ships" - with very strong builds, with good and bad matchups. There's tens of thousands of list possibilities out there. There's been relatively little written on defeating the phantom without a turret - but take a look at Doug Kinney's articles on fighting a phantom with a swarm, and some of the nuggets of gold buried here and there - such as above in this thread where we note that the phantoms optimal decloak is tied to the maneuver dial - rarely do you need to block more than 1 of the phantom's decloak avenues (excluding echo). Also missing from that list above, are proximity mines, asteroid / debris field placement and initial board placement + approaches.

Build what you like, fly what you like, and don't sweat it as much - if you're having trouble with the game not being fun, perhaps the issue is not with the game...

... stuff ...

Maybe OP just doesn't find the game fun anymore, an opinion he's more than welcome to have without being accused of being a rank 1 amateur. "Git gud" is hardly a reasonable argument in favor of the current state of the game.

Oh its fine that he isn't having any fun, thats why I said he should quit. his attitude also affects his play so it would be beneficial for him to leave. But it is also an opinion I can have that he is not skilled enough to know better

In my scene there seems to be a definite difference between what people bring to the casual Sunday afternoon or Monday evening at the FLGS and what they bring to tournaments. At tournaments, the bring lists much more in tune with the meta that we discuss here on the forum.

It's not for us to decide what people should play at either, but we have some clue as to what people do play.

I wonder how everyone would react if a member suddenly started bringing out the big guns on your casual nights. We kind of have a guy like that at our store, one who likes to net-deck. He's a blessedly terrible player when it comes to games of all varieties, and doesn't even play X-Wing, but he routinely brings Tyranid FMC spam and Chinese Forge World knockoffs to casual 40k games, and his M;tG endeavors are seldom less degenerate. He's exactly the kind of player that would play the dominant lists we're discussing, and while I have no doubt that I could beat him soundly, it doesn't make the proposition any less unappealing to me. How many other people out there are like that, do you suppose?

To use a turret and shoot outside of the front arc should be an action. That I think would 'fix' turret complaints.

I've seen 4 B-wings turn a decimator to scrap, I've had 3 interceptors end Sigma 6 phantoms within 6 turns (that's very generous, it was probably more 3).

I'm looking forward to seeing Defenders and Advanced do way more, The meta is what people choose it to be, and it's not always big ships or phantoms.

I will say that in a 200/200 team battle 3 interceptors and 3 phantoms lost against han, chewie dash and corran, and I will say that turrets are a little too good for what they are, just like phantoms are a little too good for what they are. But people, this will change.Will Autothrusters not balance turrets? And how can a phantom have ACD and autothrusters? A Phantom that isn't cloaked dies almost as easily as an interceptor. A Phantom that isn't cloaked is a Z-95 with 4 attack dice.

The 4 Attack dice is a problem - if you let it be, but really it's not, as high PS shoot first. Get 2 interceptors in formation at it and it's dead before it can throw those 4 attack dice. Get LT blount with VI and an ion missile along with someone with tactician and well.. that phantom isn't going anywhere. Hell, that someone could just be a blue with B/wing E2.

What about Nera Dantells with flachettes?

There are sucky match ups. 3 interceptors vs and turret ship is going to suck not just because of the powerful turret but the large amount of hit points involved, but like I said autothrusters is probably going to fix this to the point that big ships won't nearly be as common.

In my scene there seems to be a definite difference between what people bring to the casual Sunday afternoon or Monday evening at the FLGS and what they bring to tournaments. At tournaments, the bring lists much more in tune with the meta that we discuss here on the forum.

It's not for us to decide what people should play at either, but we have some clue as to what people do play.

I wonder how everyone would react if a member suddenly started bringing out the big guns on your casual nights. We kind of have a guy like that at our store, one who likes to net-deck. He's a blessedly terrible player when it comes to games of all varieties, and doesn't even play X-Wing, but he routinely brings Tyranid FMC spam and Chinese Forge World knockoffs to casual 40k games, and his M;tG endeavors are seldom less degenerate. He's exactly the kind of player that would play the dominant lists we're discussing, and while I have no doubt that I could beat him soundly, it doesn't make the proposition any less unappealing to me. How many other people out there are like that, do you suppose?

Thankfully TFG and WaaC players are a small portion of the gaming community but I've never played any game where there wasn't that one ******.

Mid 2000`s I played warhammer and at our store we had one certain skaven player that was hated he didn't play to a theme instead he had a pair of lightning cannons and 33 jezails and the bare number of troops, he'd sit there in his deployment zone and dismantle the other guy as he desperately tried to get into combat.

At the stoke store now there's a guy big kev whose infamous for abusive space wolf lists and he's he kind of guy who'll plonk down a tyranid bio titan in a friendly game.

Hell I know a magic player who brought a fairy deck to play against people just getting into magic and ended up putting them off completely.

Some just can't win without an OP list, others just don't play for fun but to win, either case it's a shame for the people that have to face them, thankfully most of us are able to enjoy a game with winning being a nice bonus instead of the be all and end all.