I had never before played a tabletop game or anything like it when I discovered x wing with my friend almost a year ago.

We were both immediately hooked, he took to the imperials and I loved the rebels. We'd play often and were among the first few members of a local community they has swollen to some Three dozen players in our small city at its high point.

but now,neither of us are really interested in playing the game. The nature of phantoms, fat turrets and rock-hopping 360 hlc ships with triple actions every round has broken the game.

The game used to be much more fun, where any list had a sporting chance at least of making something of a match. In today's game, the list archetypes are far too powerful. If I show up with a fun list, I'm hooped. Without a specific plan for a phantom, my list is dead in the water. Without another specific counter, I'm dead against a fat chiraneau or dash.

The game is far too paper rock scissors now, and I've completrly lost interest in playing. When the match is mostly decided before you ever roll the first dice because of how wildly a given ship can counter s whole list, suddenly all of the careful placing of tokens and measuring of distances becomes tedious.

I'm sure most of the responses to this thread will be defensive suggestions that I simply stop playing and quit whining, which is advice I think I'll take but I wanted to know if anyone else has experienced such a sharp decline in interest in this game, and if anyone holds out hope for the future. I tend to think it's going to get far worse. We don't need a third faction and we don't need so many rule-breaking ships. We need game makers who are confident in their basic game mechanic, who introduce small and interesting changes rather than new, gee-wiz, flashy ships that can do completely different things than any other ship.

The game started great but the developers went overboard with novelty. The main attractive feature of this game for me was the balance between the two different factions and the recognizable Star Wars lore. That's mostly been dissolved now and I just don't wish to play a game that's gone too far down the path of novelty.

give it a go after scum and villainy, i am not saying buy more ships, borrow from your friends but wait and see what the next meta will be like before you give up.

You don't need to build a list to counter any one specific thing. If everything has a counter, as everything should have a weakness, then there is no need to worry. Just stop worrying and learn to love the bomb.

Besides, the game has had archetypes from the beginnin: Han Shoots First, swarms, Biggs Walks the Dogs, etc. You may notice that these archetypes are also winning lists; they are more prevalent because someone won a tournament with them.

Sure, I had a similar reaction and took 3-4 months off. I'm recharged a bit, but it will basically take a significant effort from S&V to push me back to a ravenous, 1-2 tourneys a month, saving up for Regionals player.

I think X-Wing is in the middle of a natural growth cycle that happens to a lot of games a few expansions in. It's still generally quite good, but exposed at the seams a bit. I expect X-Wing v2.0 to be outstanding, but that's many years away IMO.

100% in agreement with the OP, and it is my experience exactly.

The game used to be extremely tactical, with elements of psychology akin to poker even; every list had a chance. Now, if you don't build to face phantom or some of the ridiculous god ships out there, pack up and go home.

Yes i've stopped playing; yes i still care; and yes i'm hoping ffg can do something about it. So far not so good.

Son, you're crazy.

List diversity is better than it has ever been.
Recent tournament winners have brought A-wings, Kagi, you name it.

and we have a huge pile of new toys shipping soon.

I expect X-Wing v2.0 to be outstanding, but that's many years away IMO.

I sincerely hope this never happens (i.e. X-Wing 2.0). And if it does, I sure hope FFG has one hell of an exchange rate for 1.0 ships, as I have already broken the bank for this version.

The game used to be much more fun, where any list had a sporting chance at least of making something of a match. In today's game, the list archetypes are far too powerful. If I show up with a fun list, I'm hooped.

Would you say a list consisting of a suped up Darth Vader and 3 suped up, named TIE Fighters has a chance at beating the classic HSF? I wouldn't, yet I was able to pull that off. (If you wonder why so few ships, I was broke around that time so I made do with what I had.)

When the match is mostly decided before you ever roll the first dice because of how wildly a given ship can counter s whole list, suddenly all of the careful placing of tokens and measuring of distances becomes tedious.

This sounds more like your squad had a weakness that your opponent found and exploited more than that a single ship countered all of it. While I do think that some ships are pretty strong, I'm confident that the game is fairly balanced.

I'm sure most of the responses to this thread will be defensive suggestions that I simply stop playing and quit whining, which is advice I think I'll take

Play the game more. I'm serious. If you can learn to predict your opponent's maneuvers more often, I think you will have a more satisfying time. Practice makes perfect and all that.

I tend to think it's going to get far worse.

Nah.

We don't need a third faction and we don't need so many rule-breaking ships.

In a card game there are defined rules. The only time something can override a basic game rule is something special listed on a card. That is what makes the cards unique. In a similar way, the dials, pilot abilities and upgrades in each expansion override (or break, if you want to use that phrase) the normal game rules to give you unique and varying combinations. I say bring on the Scum!

I think burn out is a natural thing to face in any wargame, just as much as I think internet exageration of "the meta" is. Maybe a break will recharge your batteries. I'm sorry the game isn't fun for you any more.

Hate to say it OP, but you won't get a lot of agreement to your perception of this game here. This is a very tournament-heavy board, so there won't be much in the way of sympathy. Sadly, the local meta down to the casual games now use tournament only lists. If you can find someone to just throw dice with with some random ships, then I would say foster that relationship.

Otherwise, I think you are doing yourself a favor and saving a lot of cash by stopping. There's a lot of hobbies out there. Good luck to you!

I don't disagree. I'm not as doom and gloom, but I put it this way in the past - we are a bit too forgiving on "Rock Paper Scissors" as a balancing factor in the game and we have also reached the point where scissors are now chainsaws that disintegrate paper, rocks are now boulders that obliterate scissors, etc. I still feel that most well constructed and well flown lists have a chance against all comers, but now it feels like scissors has a harder time against rock than it used to. Bad matchups used to feel like speed bumps to overcome and now they feel like mountains. What used to seem like a 60-40 disadvantage now feels like a 70-30 or 80-20 disadvantage. Some will say skill and tactics still matter, and they absolutely do, but I think they are less of a factor than they used to be.

I've been playing X-Wing since it came out. I've bought every wave of ships, typically in pre-order months before they're out. I've done the same with the upcoming S&V along with the Raider.

I'm more excited about this game than ever. Seriously. Where some see stagnation, I know that FFG has always played the "long game" here and they know what's in the pipes for months in advance. Every time I've seen someone bemoan that some part of the game is "broken", lo and behold a release comes out that tweaks the "broken" feature.

Sure, there's been some ups and downs, but that's a natural part of product development. The game has grown in ways that none of us who've been around since near the start could have imagined.

As noted above, there's a huge variety of lists out there - Alex winning with this all A-Wing swarm at a store championship shows that it's quite possible to win with anything if you put your mind to it.

I'm the most excited I've been since I started playing this game. Honestly.

I don't disagree. I'm not as doom and gloom, but I put it this way in the past - we are a bit too forgiving on "Rock Paper Scissors" as a balancing factor in the game and we have also reached the point where scissors are now chainsaws that disintegrate paper, rocks are now boulders that obliterate scissors, etc. I still feel that most well constructed and well flown lists have a chance against all comers, but now it feels like scissors has a harder time against rock than it used to. Bad matchups used to feel like speed bumps to overcome and now they feel like mountains. What used to seem like a 60-40 disadvantage now feels like a 70-30 or 80-20 disadvantage. Some will say skill and tactics still matter, and they absolutely do, but I think they are less of a factor than they used to be.

This entirely.

I expect X-Wing v2.0 to be outstanding, but that's many years away IMO.

I sincerely hope this never happens (i.e. X-Wing 2.0). And if it does, I sure hope FFG has one hell of an exchange rate for 1.0 ships, as I have already broken the bank for this version.

They could just do what Privateer, or even better Wyrd, did for their 2E release. Models are repacked with newer 2E components going forward, but for those with older stuff, an upgrade pack is available. No ships there, just everything to update your old fleet to 2E standards. Wyrd pulled this off for $8 plus the $15 2E rulebook.

I expect X-Wing v2.0 to be outstanding, but that's many years away IMO.

I sincerely hope this never happens (i.e. X-Wing 2.0). And if it does, I sure hope FFG has one hell of an exchange rate for 1.0 ships, as I have already broken the bank for this version.

They could just do what Privateer, or even better Wyrd, did for their 2E release. Models are repacked with newer 2E components going forward, but for those with older stuff, an upgrade pack is available. No ships there, just everything to update your old fleet to 2E standards. Wyrd pulled this off for $8 plus the $15 2E rulebook.

If they were going to make a 2.0...not that I think it is warranted right now...this is how it should be done...

Started last June. Don't really get the complaining over turrets. It still matters how you maneuver, it's just different. The extremeness of good and bad phantom match-ups is frustrating, but they can generally be outflown if you work at with a dedicated list. If your opponent is doing well with a phantom then they didn't just pick it up today. Scum will have some answers for some of these, but if you really don't enjoy the game then I don't see what that would matter.

In general the "I used to be able to bring everything." complaint is just a complaint that the level of play is steadily rising. Your old "Luke and some Y-wings" list was bad before. People just weren't net-listing good lists as often so there was no way to know it.

I've been playing X-Wing since it came out. I've bought every wave of ships, typically in pre-order months before they're out. I've done the same with the upcoming S&V along with the Raider.

I'm more excited about this game than ever. Seriously. Where some see stagnation, I know that FFG has always played the "long game" here and they know what's in the pipes for months in advance. Every time I've seen someone bemoan that some part of the game is "broken", lo and behold a release comes out that tweaks the "broken" feature.

Sure, there's been some ups and downs, but that's a natural part of product development. The game has grown in ways that none of us who've been around since near the start could have imagined.

As noted above, there's a huge variety of lists out there - Alex winning with this all A-Wing swarm at a store championship shows that it's quite possible to win with anything if you put your mind to it.

I'm the most excited I've been since I started playing this game. Honestly.

There are statistical outliers absolutely but don't think that this somehow proves the game isn't broken.

Sometimes unusual lists make it in tournaments because of matchups. Players having bad single games or whole days and whatever else.

This doesn't mean that a given list doesn't get mopped 9/10 times by its hard counter.

And I have lots of experience, I'm great at flying and list building. Its not that I don't know how to play or don't have the patience, it's that most of the lists you could make are finished before they even start, where this was not true before. I can build tournament lists myself and win but the game isn't fun with a decimator whisper or dash Corran build.

It started with the phantom. You praise ffg for their vision and long term planning, but the game was all but broken by the release of a single ship which single handedly wiped out generics and swarm lists, and gave rise to the only thing that could reliably counter phantoms: fat Han. Given that the designers themselves are on record admitting their mistake with the phantom, I'm not sure what the source of your optimism is.

Popularity of x wing judging by local attendance and Internet group activity is starting to lag as well. It was steadily increasing up until a month or two ago.

Anyway, I don't mean to whine and complain. I'm a buy disappointed but whatever. It's only a game. Hopefully I can recoup the money I've spent while the game retains it's popularity.

Has anyone had the curiosity to offer the OP some cheese?

Started last June. Don't really get the complaining over turrets. It still matters how you maneuver, it's just different. The extremeness of good and bad phantoms is frustrating, but they can generally be outflown if you work at with a dedicated list. If your opponent is doing well with a phantom then they didn't just pick it up today. Scum will have some answers for some of these, but if you really don't enjoy the game then I don't see what that would matter.

In general the "I used to be able to bring everything." complaint is just a complaint that the level of play is steadily rising.

Anti phantom tactics aren't enough. A given list without a very specific plan for phantoms is dead against one.

A list needs both anti phantom components and anti phantom strategy. You need both to take them out and this is almost always to the detriment of your results against any other list.

This is the problem, we can either make lists that counter the phantom and are eaten up by anything else or we can make a list that does well against anything else and just hope we don't see a phantom.

Doesn't make for a fun game. The phantom broke x wing.

Has anyone had the curiosity to offer the OP some cheese?

And "curiosity"?

Started last June. Don't really get the complaining over turrets. It still matters how you maneuver, it's just different. The extremeness of good and bad phantoms is frustrating, but they can generally be outflown if you work at with a dedicated list. If your opponent is doing well with a phantom then they didn't just pick it up today. Scum will have some answers for some of these, but if you really don't enjoy the game then I don't see what that would matter.

In general the "I used to be able to bring everything." complaint is just a complaint that the level of play is steadily rising.

Anti phantom tactics aren't enough. A given list without a very specific plan for phantoms is dead against one.

Ps9

Ps10

Ps11

Ps12

Stress

Blocking

Turrets

Gunner/Luke

Vader crew

Swarms

Ion

4+dice attacks in general

Many of those things can be included in multiple ways and all of them are also needed to deal with other ps9, ultra-maneuverable ships. If that's not enough list diversity to keep you entertained then you are trying to play a much more boring game than the rest of us lol.

I had never before played a tabletop game or anything like it when I discovered x wing with my friend almost a year ago.

We were both immediately hooked, he took to the imperials and I loved the rebels. We'd play often and were among the first few members of a local community they has swollen to some Three dozen players in our small city at its high point.

but now,neither of us are really interested in playing the game. The nature of phantoms, fat turrets and rock-hopping 360 hlc ships with triple actions every round has broken the game.

The game used to be much more fun, where any list had a sporting chance at least of making something of a match. In today's game, the list archetypes are far too powerful. If I show up with a fun list, I'm hooped. Without a specific plan for a phantom, my list is dead in the water. Without another specific counter, I'm dead against a fat chiraneau or dash.

The game is far too paper rock scissors now, and I've completrly lost interest in playing. When the match is mostly decided before you ever roll the first dice because of how wildly a given ship can counter s whole list, suddenly all of the careful placing of tokens and measuring of distances becomes tedious.

I'm sure most of the responses to this thread will be defensive suggestions that I simply stop playing and quit whining, which is advice I think I'll take but I wanted to know if anyone else has experienced such a sharp decline in interest in this game, and if anyone holds out hope for the future. I tend to think it's going to get far worse. We don't need a third faction and we don't need so many rule-breaking ships. We need game makers who are confident in their basic game mechanic, who introduce small and interesting changes rather than new, gee-wiz, flashy ships that can do completely different things than any other ship.

The game started great but the developers went overboard with novelty. The main attractive feature of this game for me was the balance between the two different factions and the recognizable Star Wars lore. That's mostly been dissolved now and I just don't wish to play a game that's gone too far down the path of novelty.

I agree 100%.

I've actually stopped buying ships as the game is no longer the one which I signed up for, so to speak. With the ships I have I can still play friendly games with a casual player I know... but the Phantom basically was strike one... strike two was the need to buy ships I don't want in order to get the cards needed to stay 'competitive'. Strike 3 was seeing that the game has moved away from trying to out think your opponents moves on the table... to trying to guess his list in advance and knowing that, if you guessed wrong, there's little point in playing the match as some match ups are so horrifically one sided (regardless of the fact that the points limits are supposed to generate roughly fair and balanced games).

Root cause of all problems? The Phantom. For me it destroyed the fun in the game.

Started last June. Don't really get the complaining over turrets. It still matters how you maneuver, it's just different. The extremeness of good and bad phantoms is frustrating, but they can generally be outflown if you work at with a dedicated list. If your opponent is doing well with a phantom then they didn't just pick it up today. Scum will have some answers for some of these, but if you really don't enjoy the game then I don't see what that would matter.

In general the "I used to be able to bring everything." complaint is just a complaint that the level of play is steadily rising.

Anti phantom tactics aren't enough. A given list without a very specific plan for phantoms is dead against one.

Since anti-phantom lists and tactics include:

Ps9

Ps10

Ps11

Ps12

Stress

Blocking

Turrets

Gunner/Luke

Vader crew

Swarms

Ion

4+dice attacks in general

Many of those things can be included in multiple ways and all of them are also needed to deal with other ps9, ultra-maneuverable ships. If that's not enough list diversity to keep you entertained then you are trying to play a much more boring game than the rest of us lol.

Yeah, just slap a single ps11 ship in a list and you're good to go right?

Swarms as a counter to phantoms?

Range two 3 dice Ion turret against 4 dice focused/evaded?

Lol indeed

Ps10

I'm sorry you aren't having fun. I just read the article by Sable Griphon about his Bomber Prox mine list. It's got me thinking about what I cad do with my three bombers.

I say hang onto your stuff. I've kept my Magic and Jyhad cards years after I stopped playing. Having them still makes me happy.

It reads to me like you may be too triggered to see past the current meta. A few months off and new tourney results could shine light into the gloom.