Ah the heady days of Terminator Armour counting as a 1 point dreadnought against a Harlequin's Kiss and the Harlequin Jetbikes dealing D6 Shurriken Cannon hits against everything in a 2" wide corridor from anywhere on the table to the edge...

Phantoms and Turrets are nothing in comparison to some of the 40k rules first released in White Dwarf.

Remember when space marines could equip howling banshee masks?

Remember when space marines could equip howling banshee masks?

No, I don't. It's entirely possible, from my perspective, that you Warhammer people are making this up as you go along as a practical joke on the rest of us.

Remember when space marines could equip howling banshee masks?

No, I don't. It's entirely possible, from my perspective, that you Warhammer people are making this up as you go along as a practical joke on the rest of us.

He's not though. Space Marines could have Eldar equipment in the Rogue Trader days. It was pretty ridiculous what you could do back then.

I once got beaten by Space Marine Medics with missile launchers and vortex grenades. If that weren't absurd enough, there was always the random chaos upgrades out of the Lost and Dammed books.... truly invisible units (the controlling player made notes as to where they were on the table as the models were never physically placed) were always fun....

Holy Jesus the whining in this thread is amazing. Honestly if you truly are dead set on leaving then no amount of forum posts are going to change your mind.

For people complaining and the competitive meta and you're still playing in tournaments please stop being a scrub. I don't mean to use it in a derogatory way but please go to this link here http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win and see what I'm talking about. Why complain about people using TOP TIER lists in an environment where WINNING is the primary objective. A lot of these players equate FUN to WINNING and there's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't cheat or assault you. Play more, rethink your lists, try there lists to at least see why they use them and what all they can do, and come up with a better solution than crying about how 3 x wings aren't winning right now.

For those complaining about people using there competitive super ultra hard core smash em up no mercy sweep the leg cobra Kai lists during casual nights maybe find out if they are practicing for tournaments. If so that's fine and understandable if you don't want to play them and there list (you coward!! Lol jk) then there's nothing wrong with that either. My group has like 70-30 breakdown of tourney practicers to just wanna have funners. If tourney practice isn't your thing or you don't want to fly against fat Han for the umpteenth time then maybe ASK THEM to fly something different. Be like hey I wanna see how my squad does against a high ps only small base squad. We had a night where we decided only small bases and 65 points so we could get more rounds in and use things we don't commonly use. Maybe pitch something like that to gang? Also you could ASK THEM to play scenarios or missions. We've got like 13 or so and they can definitely change things up since they aren't just 65 minute death matches. Hell if you have the time and space do team epic matches. It is THE MOST FUN you can have in x-wing in my opinion. If team epic isn't your style do team games in general. They are great fun and build comraderie and all that jazz. Now these things here require TALKING TO PEOPLE and COMMUNICATION SKILLS. If you are sick and tired of tournament practice but don't ever speak up or try to change stuff then no one will ever get the hint. Knock off the subtlety and passive aggressiveness and just look that bastard in the eye politely ask to fly something else. If you're too scared to communicate with these intimidating nerds then you're still in luck!

TEACH YOUR FRIENDS THE GAME! If you can't stand the casual day at your game store with all these hyper elite alpha lone wolf sniper commando get wrecked we be practicing for tourney builds then go to your normal friends. If you have no normal friends then I suggest finding some! Anyway x wing isn't complicated to learn. Yeah there's a lot of depth but on the surface anyone can learn it. Keep showing it to people and eventually you'll find some who like it and you can never show them a decimator or yt or phantom! You can create and foster your own little x wing world and be like a god!!

Moral of the story? Stop complaining. You suck at the game? Get better. You hate the tournament scene? Don't go. Casual night turning into tournament practice night? Change it, talk to people, introduce your own friends into the game. It's just disheartening to see members of my fellow human race whine and cry about moving tiny plastic ships on giant mouse pads when they could be finding ways to change those situations.

News flash. People did,including myself; and it got shot down by the loudest folks in the room...the same 8 I mentioned. Your attacks on people's personalities notwithstanding, some of the advice was actually usable and tried. Unfortunately the situation had deteriorated to the point that those changes no longer became viable. As I stated before, the game is niche at my LGS because of this....at best.

Not every shop is full of the gung-ho player types, I am well aware. If you think I am going up to these guys and bitching to them about how they want to play and how it isn't fun, you are pretty much dead wrong. I discussed the alternatives. It wasn't accepted. I am fully aware that my fun is different from theirs. The damage was done long before I tried to get alternative play styles set up. I am also not so fortunate as to have a dozen places to play in my area, and vassal isn't my thing.

So I collect, and get a game in a year at best. That's how it is, but seriously step off with the personal attacks.

News flash I didn't make any personal attacks. I using generalizations. Personal attacks would have been if I called people out and used there name. I painted with some broad strokes! Anyway if your storemates aren't down with your suggestions then how about getting your friend into the game? Heck find random strangers to play with. Go on Craigslist and ask for people to game with. Heck e harmony might be able to match you up with the perfect x wing players. But in all seriousness this is a good game to introduce friends to the hoobby. Not all are going to like it but there's no harm in trying and all ya gotta do is hook 1 of them.

People will find a reason to complain about anything on the internet, but I have to say, if X-Wing was 100% healthy I don't think we'd see this level of grumbling. Something isn't kosher, but whether or not it's another sky-is-falling climactic event remains to be seen.

Then the game has never been healthy. The only difference is that the meta has shifted (as it will always do) to a place where the Falcons are actually a top tier option (again). Am I the only one to remember the bitching about the Summer of the Double Falcons???

No, you aren't.

And this is probably the most salient argument for why the game is actually fine. There were an equal amount of "I'm leaving" threads back then as there are now. This indicates to me that little has changed, ever. The problem isn't the game or what's in it, it's the people playing the game.

Anyone going from casual play to tournaments is gonna get hammered at first that's true of any game system, either you can adapt and up your game or you can't.

People say this and things like, "With any game system people are going to find the best combinations and netdeck them for tournaments." The Phantom isn't something that is just mildly better than everything else, it's blatantly overpowered. It gets to move wherever it wants, roll 4-5 attack dice, combo it with gunner and FCS, and it gets 4 agility unless you specifically go out of your way to get higher PS.

It also managed to eliminate all the named pilots who can't get above 9 PS with VI. There is no point to PS bidding anymore unless you can get above 9.

Groupthink regurgitation.

The phantom cannot go wherever it wants. Echo aside it has a TIE fighter dial with a longer barrel roll.

Only the ACD TIE phantom has 4 agility most of the time, and that's assuming you make no attempt to stress it.

The TIE phantom can and has been frequently eliminated by lower pilot skill pilots. It relies on green dice, which are hardly flawless as a defence.

And Gunner? Seriously? You've got to be kidding me. Gunner, on a 4 dice ship? How often does a 4 dice ship miss? And before you argue that it does, if you successfully argue that you've just pulled apart your argument on 4 dice being overpowered.

I don't really have a problem with meta's current trends or even power creep. I'm not a tournament player so whatever the new hotness is doesn't particularly concern me. What does concern me is the current design path. It seems like it is "MORE ACTION ECONOMY!!! MORE SYNERGY!!! MORE RESPONSE ACTIONS!!! MORE CARD TEXT!!!! MORE BOLT ON UPGRADES TO ADDRESS OTHER ISSUES (USUALLY THROUGH MORE ACTION ECONOMY, MORE SYNERGY, MORE RESPONSE ACTIONS, ETC)!!!"

Fun of course is a very subjective concept. I was drawn to X-Wing because:

a) It looked cool, I mean really cool

b) It was wonderfully simple. Maneuver, focus or evade actions, and stress. My 8 year old son could play it, and honestly, play it pretty well.

c) It was relatively quick to set up, pick your squad, and could be played to completion in about an hour.

d) I still swear to this day, it felt just like playing X-Wing Vs. Tie Fighter.

e) Did I mention how cool it looks?

Now it still looks cool but the simplicity has evaporated (and not everyone thinks that is a bad thing). However, a lot of our home games recently have had to be called early due to boredom. It feels like it takes forever now to slog through a game, reading text, triggering actions, planning cloaks, decloaks, boosts, barrel rolls, etc. In short, the game is becoming less fun (again, subjective) for myself and my casual family and friends.

The general answer seems to be "shut up, your opinion doesn't matter, play wave 3 or less if you don't like it you big baby, this game is perfection, you just suck and need to get better". Perhaps that's true, though I suspect even if I had Heaveresque skill, my interest would be waning.

The newer ships aren't hitting our table, the Decimator has made a single appearance, Dash, I'm sorry to say still hasn't. What isn't subjective is that I have spent hundreds of dollars on this game (and still don't regret it). I just don't see myself continuing to purchase new releases which seem to get more and more "fiddly" all the time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly content playing Wave 3 and less for those of you proposing that as the solution. However, if FFG wants more of my money they need some way of getting me back to the table. Whether that's through mission scenarios, work on Epic Play, or maybe even a simplified card set for "bads" like me.

I think others feel the same same way, and I think the "meta" is unfairly taking some of the blame. Regardless, I hope FFG does something, because honestly Alex, I'm not buying the next ship just because it has a card that will allow me to take stress to acquire a target lock, and remove stress to pass the target lock to a friendly ship at range 2 outside of my arc, which will give me a focus that I can spend to remove the stress, so I can take stress to do a barrel roll, that will allow me to remove that stress with a boost into an enemy ships firing arc, which will then allow me to perform a K-Turn as long as at least 3 friendly ships are within range 3 but outside the primary firing arc of no less than 2 enemy ships... unless of course that ship looks really really cool (Damnit, I'm so weak).

What he said.

I got into the game simply because the ships looked cool.

Where on the east coast? SE Fla here.

What he said.

I got into the game simply because the ships looked cool.

Where on the east coast? SE Fla here.

Way north of that, Maine.

The extent to which Phantoms have strangled the meta and how powerful they are against a list that doesn't go out of its way to have 9+ PS or a turret is excessive though.

The things that counter fat turrets are hard countered by the Phantom. If the Phantom wasn't around fat turrets would be a lot less annoying and prevalent. I find it hard to believe that it's difficult to kill double falcon with XXBB and focusing on one falcon at a time. Try that now and you'll auto lose if you happen to face a Phantom unless you get lucky with an HLC.

People will find a reason to complain about anything on the internet, but I have to say, if X-Wing was 100% healthy I don't think we'd see this level of grumbling. Something isn't kosher, but whether or not it's another sky-is-falling climactic event remains to be seen.

Then the game has never been healthy. The only difference is that the meta has shifted (as it will always do) to a place where the Falcons are actually a top tier option (again). Am I the only one to remember the bitching about the Summer of the Double Falcons???

No, you aren't.

The problem isn't the game or what's in it, it's the tournament people playing the game.

Fixed that for ya

My group of buds play all the time, most of them are not tourney players, and guess what? All is good in Xwing land, great game, solid rule set, and a fantastic IP.

Groupthink regurgitation.

The phantom cannot go wherever it wants. Echo aside it has a TIE fighter dial with a longer barrel roll.

Only the ACD TIE phantom has 4 agility most of the time, and that's assuming you make no attempt to stress it.

The TIE phantom can and has been frequently eliminated by lower pilot skill pilots. It relies on green dice, which are hardly flawless as a defence.

And Gunner? Seriously? You've got to be kidding me. Gunner, on a 4 dice ship? How often does a 4 dice ship miss? And before you argue that it does, if you successfully argue that you've just pulled apart your argument on 4 dice being overpowered.

Overall I think if the advanced cloaking device had been a use every other turn type deal we would see phantoms getting played much differently and would see a far more varied tournament scene. The risk/reward now is weighted far more towards reward with ACD. I belie e the generics have the right amount.

You know you could provide a pretty good fix to ACD by adding "Reduce pilot skill by 2" to the card. Means you can have Whisper at PS7 with ACD+VI, PS9 with VI and Stygium, or PS5 with ACD only. Means far more people get a shot on him and PS9+ bids are not so necessary.

You know you could provide a pretty good fix to ACD by adding "Reduce pilot skill by 2" to the card. Means you can have Whisper at PS7 with ACD+VI, PS9 with VI and Stygium, or PS5 with ACD only. Means far more people get a shot on him and PS9+ bids are not so necessary.[/quote?]

Why would the ACD drop pilot skill though (from a fluff perspective)? It's an interesting solution, I just don't think it fluff very well.

You know you could provide a pretty good fix to ACD by adding "Reduce pilot skill by 2" to the card. Means you can have Whisper at PS7 with ACD+VI, PS9 with VI and Stygium, or PS5 with ACD only. Means far more people get a shot on him and PS9+ bids are not so necessary.[/quote?]

Why would the ACD drop pilot skill though (from a fluff perspective)? It's an interesting solution, I just don't think it fluff very well.

Because you get disorientated when using it? Because using it introduces control lag? Because fitting it and using it draws more power from other systems affecting manoeuvrability? Plenty of fluff reasons for it, if we think the fix is sensible.

The extent to which Phantoms have strangled the meta and how powerful they are against a list that doesn't go out of its way to have 9+ PS or a turret is excessive though.

The things that counter fat turrets are hard countered by the Phantom. If the Phantom wasn't around fat turrets would be a lot less annoying and prevalent. I find it hard to believe that it's difficult to kill double falcon with XXBB and focusing on one falcon at a time. Try that now and you'll auto lose if you happen to face a Phantom unless you get lucky with an HLC.

The thing which strangles the game is the hysterical nature of the community, which screams "overpowered" so long and so loud when something proves difficult to beat that nobody can not take notice. How much of this have you actually gained from personal experience and how much is the forum groupthink doing your thinking for you? Maybe you autolose.

And you know what happens when you scream something's overpowered? They fly off the shelves.

But by all means, keep up the hyperbole. All you do is propagate your own decloaking hell.

I think you're understating the maneuverability a little bit.

Not at all. The phantom has a TIE fighter dial with a tridirection barrel roll 2. What makes it unpredictable is that you don't know which maneuver it's selected. But that maneuver is locked in in the blind planning phase. Likewise, the phantom doesn't know the maneuvers of your ships. A phantom player has a choice of three destinations when he decloaks. Usually there's only one he actually wants to do. In that sense, the phantom has much less reactive power than the TIE interceptor.

I don't agree with every decision FFG has made, but I won't say the game has 'lost it's way'

I dislike it when they deviate from what I see as the nature of the game (choose a maneuver and live with it...only minor modifications allowed)(I'm looking at you phantom). I've also talked with people a lot about 'wouldn't it have been cool if' and then mention a slight rules change or ship change. But the truth of the matter is you can never please everyone.

They tried 12 versions before they settled on what we got so it's not like they didn't test it first.

They are strong ships but for their price they have to be, four hit points is fragile easily taken out in one shot same as a headhunter.

People will find a reason to complain about anything on the internet, but I have to say, if X-Wing was 100% healthy I don't think we'd see this level of grumbling. Something isn't kosher, but whether or not it's another sky-is-falling climactic event remains to be seen.

Then the game has never been healthy. The only difference is that the meta has shifted (as it will always do) to a place where the Falcons are actually a top tier option (again). Am I the only one to remember the bitching about the Summer of the Double Falcons???

No, you aren't.

The problem isn't the game or what's in it, it's the tournament people playing the game.

Fixed that for ya

My group of buds play all the time, most of them are not tourney players, and guess what? All is good in Xwing land, great game, solid rule set, and a fantastic IP.

As it happens in many other games I wouldn't expect to be overly suprised if the most vocal over competitive imbalance don't actively participate in the game competitively. They may play in an event here and there at most, but not actively. I have no clue what leads to that phenomenon but it is startlingly common in various game system.

I know that FFG has always played the "long game" here and they know what's in the pipes for months in advance.

I don't know about that. It takes a long time to go from ship design to painted plastics coming out the factory door, but I suspect the cards are much more capable to be changed at the last minute to address problems.

I've also heard tales of in what used to be their 'big game' a set introducing some powerful yet playtested cards were almost ready to go to the printers when the CEO came in and said that they weren't powerful enough and had them add a new special 'cannot be killed' trait. So yes, there are times when drastic changes have been made with little forethought. Not saying that's what's happening here and now, but hasty and unplanned is part of their record.

The extent to which Phantoms have strangled the meta and how powerful they are against a list that doesn't go out of its way to have 9+ PS or a turret is excessive though.

The things that counter fat turrets are hard countered by the Phantom. If the Phantom wasn't around fat turrets would be a lot less annoying and prevalent. I find it hard to believe that it's difficult to kill double falcon with XXBB and focusing on one falcon at a time. Try that now and you'll auto lose if you happen to face a Phantom unless you get lucky with an HLC.

The thing which strangles the game is the hysterical nature of the community, which screams "overpowered" so long and so loud when something proves difficult to beat that nobody can not take notice. How much of this have you actually gained from personal experience and how much is the forum groupthink doing your thinking for you? Maybe you autolose.

And you know what happens when you scream something's overpowered? They fly off the shelves.

But by all means, keep up the hyperbole. All you do is propagate your own decloaking hell.

I think you're understating the maneuverability a little bit.

Not at all. The phantom has a TIE fighter dial with a tridirection barrel roll 2. What makes it unpredictable is that you don't know which maneuver it's selected. But that maneuver is locked in in the blind planning phase. Likewise, the phantom doesn't know the maneuvers of your ships. A phantom player has a choice of three destinations when he decloaks. Usually there's only one he actually wants to do. In that sense, the phantom has much less reactive power than the TIE interceptor.

1.) Considering that when my opponent is dumb enough to park his Whisper in front of my Swarm and it takes a full on broadside only to plink off a single shield, it's rather irritating. With average rolls 2 attack dice do nothing against 4 agility with a defensive focus. Trust me, I've played against this thing dozens of times. It moves wherever the hell it pleases and rolls however many dice it pleases. If it misses with the first shot the second shot gets target locked and it's likely 4-5 hits.

2.) When the Phantom is far away it can move to the far left of my ships, the far right, or the middle. If I spread out my arcs I'm not getting any damage through. It's impossible to predict, it's a shell game at this point.

People will find a reason to complain about anything on the internet, but I have to say, if X-Wing was 100% healthy I don't think we'd see this level of grumbling. Something isn't kosher, but whether or not it's another sky-is-falling climactic event remains to be seen.

Then the game has never been healthy. The only difference is that the meta has shifted (as it will always do) to a place where the Falcons are actually a top tier option (again). Am I the only one to remember the bitching about the Summer of the Double Falcons???

I think that only underscores my point. Fool me once, right? How many consecutive metas of unfun lists do we have to compete against before it's fair to say "enough is enough"?

It's just the way the top tier goes. Something will always be "TEH BEST", and that will always have complaints. The Phantom has caused the it restrict a bit more than when it was just Wave 2, sure. But, the top tier will expand and contract with each wave. There is no perfect designer who can achieve such a goal.

My best suggestion is if you do not enjoy the current metagame, take a break. It will change.

I, personally, am not complaining about what's "the best," I'm merely observing that some lists are patently unfun. When you suffer through that for long enough, even veterans will be driven away. Surely that can be seen as a mark against the game.

Promises of "it will change" are a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Especially since you just pointed out that Falcons have been a problem for quite a while now. If the people designing the game had the foresight to circumvent these issues, then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation at all. To pretend like you or I can foretell the future at this point - for better or for worse - is more than a little arrogant. Who's to say the game won't take another turn for the worse come wave 6?