That sounds a lot like me too. I collect, but since every single player at my LGS plays meta lists in causal games....it's pretty much worn the community down to the same 8 players who play in the store tournaments. No one else plays. At all.

THAT is what is sad to me. The community was much, much larger before this happened, but people walked away once they had to bring tournament level lists to the Thursday game night. For fun. So the 8 players that see that type of play as fun won out, and effectively turned the game into their little fiefdom. I honestly do not expect to ever get a truly casual game in ever again. When I mention wanting to play to others, they basically say "nope. I'd rather play something else." So we end up with board games usually. I spent good money on this stuff. I really did want to enjoy it. I hear that there were a lot of X-Wing players in my current community, but I have yet to meet them.

I was glad to see the OP got some constructive criticism as opposed to more outright trollery.....which still happened.

I had never before played a tabletop game or anything like it when I discovered x wing with my friend almost a year ago.

We were both immediately hooked, he took to the imperials and I loved the rebels. We'd play often and were among the first few members of a local community they has swollen to some Three dozen players in our small city at its high point.

but now,neither of us are really interested in playing the game. The nature of phantoms, fat turrets and rock-hopping 360 hlc ships with triple actions every round has broken the game.

The game used to be much more fun, where any list had a sporting chance at least of making something of a match. In today's game, the list archetypes are far too powerful. If I show up with a fun list, I'm hooped. Without a specific plan for a phantom, my list is dead in the water. Without another specific counter, I'm dead against a fat chiraneau or dash.

The game is far too paper rock scissors now, and I've completrly lost interest in playing. When the match is mostly decided before you ever roll the first dice because of how wildly a given ship can counter s whole list, suddenly all of the careful placing of tokens and measuring of distances becomes tedious.

I'm sure most of the responses to this thread will be defensive suggestions that I simply stop playing and quit whining, which is advice I think I'll take but I wanted to know if anyone else has experienced such a sharp decline in interest in this game, and if anyone holds out hope for the future. I tend to think it's going to get far worse. We don't need a third faction and we don't need so many rule-breaking ships. We need game makers who are confident in their basic game mechanic, who introduce small and interesting changes rather than new, gee-wiz, flashy ships that can do completely different things than any other ship.

The game started great but the developers went overboard with novelty. The main attractive feature of this game for me was the balance between the two different factions and the recognizable Star Wars lore. That's mostly been dissolved now and I just don't wish to play a game that's gone too far down the path of novelty.

100% in agreement with the OP, and it is my experience exactly.

The game used to be extremely tactical, with elements of psychology akin to poker even; every list had a chance. Now, if you don't build to face phantom or some of the ridiculous god ships out there, pack up and go home.

Yes i've stopped playing; yes i still care; and yes i'm hoping ffg can do something about it. So far not so good.

I've definitely seen this as well. I've found that playing scenarios a matches for fun with friends steering away from the tournament scene has been super fun.

Ladies and gents: if you see something objectionable, report it and move on. Piling on is fun, but when someone really steps over the line, responding to it just gives the mods more garbage to clean up when they arrive on the scene.

I reported your face.

Holy Jesus the whining in this thread is amazing. Honestly if you truly are dead set on leaving then no amount of forum posts are going to change your mind.

For people complaining and the competitive meta and you're still playing in tournaments please stop being a scrub. I don't mean to use it in a derogatory way but please go to this link here http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win and see what I'm talking about. Why complain about people using TOP TIER lists in an environment where WINNING is the primary objective. A lot of these players equate FUN to WINNING and there's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't cheat or assault you. Play more, rethink your lists, try there lists to at least see why they use them and what all they can do, and come up with a better solution than crying about how 3 x wings aren't winning right now.

For those complaining about people using there competitive super ultra hard core smash em up no mercy sweep the leg cobra Kai lists during casual nights maybe find out if they are practicing for tournaments. If so that's fine and understandable if you don't want to play them and there list (you coward!! Lol jk) then there's nothing wrong with that either. My group has like 70-30 breakdown of tourney practicers to just wanna have funners. If tourney practice isn't your thing or you don't want to fly against fat Han for the umpteenth time then maybe ASK THEM to fly something different. Be like hey I wanna see how my squad does against a high ps only small base squad. We had a night where we decided only small bases and 65 points so we could get more rounds in and use things we don't commonly use. Maybe pitch something like that to gang? Also you could ASK THEM to play scenarios or missions. We've got like 13 or so and they can definitely change things up since they aren't just 65 minute death matches. Hell if you have the time and space do team epic matches. It is THE MOST FUN you can have in x-wing in my opinion. If team epic isn't your style do team games in general. They are great fun and build comraderie and all that jazz. Now these things here require TALKING TO PEOPLE and COMMUNICATION SKILLS. If you are sick and tired of tournament practice but don't ever speak up or try to change stuff then no one will ever get the hint. Knock off the subtlety and passive aggressiveness and just look that bastard in the eye politely ask to fly something else. If you're too scared to communicate with these intimidating nerds then you're still in luck!

TEACH YOUR FRIENDS THE GAME! If you can't stand the casual day at your game store with all these hyper elite alpha lone wolf sniper commando get wrecked we be practicing for tourney builds then go to your normal friends. If you have no normal friends then I suggest finding some! Anyway x wing isn't complicated to learn. Yeah there's a lot of depth but on the surface anyone can learn it. Keep showing it to people and eventually you'll find some who like it and you can never show them a decimator or yt or phantom! You can create and foster your own little x wing world and be like a god!!

Moral of the story? Stop complaining. You suck at the game? Get better. You hate the tournament scene? Don't go. Casual night turning into tournament practice night? Change it, talk to people, introduce your own friends into the game. It's just disheartening to see members of my fellow human race whine and cry about moving tiny plastic ships on giant mouse pads when they could be finding ways to change those situations.

Yawn... I Might get up and fix a nice steak and mess around in my game room with all of my cool toys and so forth and such.

Kinda what you do when you have a life and $$$ and that sort of thing.

Dude, you are being a ******. Knock it off eh?

Sorry about the mess. I am done with being a ****** to ******s.

[...]

I agree 100%.

I've actually stopped buying ships as the game is no longer the one which I signed up for, so to speak. With the ships I have I can still play friendly games with a casual player I know... but the Phantom basically was strike one... strike two was the need to buy ships I don't want in order to get the cards needed to stay 'competitive'. Strike 3 was seeing that the game has moved away from trying to out think your opponents moves on the table... to trying to guess his list in advance and knowing that, if you guessed wrong, there's little point in playing the match as some match ups are so horrifically one sided (regardless of the fact that the points limits are supposed to generate roughly fair and balanced games).

Root cause of all problems? The Phantom. For me it destroyed the fun in the game.

You'll know best what is fun for you and what not - but this puzzles me.

Sure the Phantom is a strong ship. But it's also expensive pointwise and can go down quick when you catch it without cloak (higher PS is totally doable), stress it, ion it or bomb it. If the Phantom fails to cloak it's very vulnerable. And even with 4 green dice it doesn't like being hit by 3 or 4 dice attacks.

If you had said that Fat Han and Decimators destroyed your fun I would have understood that much better. Big turret ships make gameplay more boring because maneuvering is of much less impirtance. Pantom OTOH totally needs it's positioning to survive.

And you don't need to buy expansions just to get some cards. In casual play you can simply proxy. A printout page from something like Yet Another X-Wing Miniatures Squad Builder is all you need. For official tournaments you could instead just buy, borrow or trade the individual cards.

I halfway get your point 3: The large turret ships seem to dominate in tournament game atm - and they certainly make maneuvering less important than having the right upgrade cards for your big ship. But OTOH you always had and always will have to outprepare your potential opponents and analyze the meta for high level tournament play. That's always true. Doesn't matter if it is X-Wing, MtG, StarCraft, Chess or whatever.

On a related note, with more players came more bad attitudes. Still lots of great folks out there, but I feel I'm runing into more not so great ones these days. This is in no way the games fault (though I do think part of it has to do with wanting to win top prizes which can be valuable), just an observation.

That's just life. Get enough people involved and you raise the chance to meet some d-bags.

Unfamiliar ships, I've noticed this with other Star Wars games, too. They start off with the original trilogy and the ships/characters everyoen knows and loves. Then it gets successful and they run out of OT stuff ad start going into EU stuff that many people are less interested in. I've actually read 20+ EU books, but it's still not my favorite part of the story, and if I had my choice I'd rather run just OT ships (and I do this to the extent that I can).

So - no actual problem here?

Playing vs. the same squad over and over again... At worlds this year 3 of my 6 matchup ser vs. YT and 3

Zs. BORING!

OK - but that's in the nature of things. Not too long ago it was Tie Swarm everywhere. Now it's Fat Hans. Soon it might be Double-Aggressor or some such.

In competitive play some players will find combinations that are especially efficient - even if just by a small margin and these combos will then quickly become very popular in this networked age - until the next cool combo comes up.

And your last two points collide. Introducing new ships remixes the meta. That's why you don't get bored by all those Tie Swarms atm.

Play style has changed quite a bit. At worlds, people sometimes took forever to engage. Not slow play, but flying back and forth on their side of the board or trying to avoid combat for long periods of time. A valid tactic, yes. But, even though I don't mind chasing them down, this is also very BORING!

I understand and sympathize. But then perhaps - all things considered - competitive tournament play is not for you? Many of the points you raise are an unavoidable outcome of people looking for the tiniest advantage while trying to get ahead in a very competitive environment. If people try to win in a time limited game won or lost by a few points - evasive tactics simply make sense when you are ahead in points.

Just play casual games. Agree with friends on house rules that avoid the builds that you and your buddies don't enjoy playing against.

The Phantom... no matter how you slice it unless you have a counter for it it is hard to beat. I hope they find a small change that keeps it competative but not quite as powerful.

Replace "Phantom" with "Fat Han", "Tie Swarm", Triple-Firespray, etc and the sentence is always true. There is always a build or 3 that is hard to beat unless you bring a good counter for that - at least in a very competitive play environment where good players optimize their builds.

My current solution, the one that is helping keep the game the most fun for me, is to help my friends prepare for events. If they have a list they want to test or something they want to test it against, I can still have a lot of fun playing. Otherwise, it's just not as fun for me any more. But, as others have said, I'm keeping my stuff and will keep buying since (1) there is still some fun in the game for me, and (2) things could always change in a way that brings back even more fun for me.

:-)

I murdered echo tonight with 2 academy pilots and 2 naked saber squadron interceptors. Murdered her earlier today with vader, proton rockets.

Murdered whisper saturday with 2 bandits and 2 rookies. Made top 4 of the store championship with that list.

Phantoms aren't the problem.

But surely this is unpossible.

Phantoms are undefeatable and the only way to deal with them is start threads on these forums.

I have been in it since the beginning as well, and in my opinion the game was best at wave 3. Yes there were strong lists but nothing game breaking. There was a lot more diversity in list making at that time. I don't think a phantom is unbeatable, but I do think it is a factor in every list you build if you want to win.

I think it would be interesting to try a limited tournament that only allowed ships and cards up to and including wave 3. There were few DOA lists then, and most lists at least had a chance.

It seems there has been some power creep lately, lots of patching and fixing, etc. I don't think the game is sunk, but I don't think it is as good as it was in wave 3.

I think a horsepower limited tourney also makes it easier for new players to get I to the game. How would you like to be playing your first tournament today against amped whisper, double donuts, fat dash, etc. very discouraging, I would think.

If given the choice to play a tournament limited to waves 1-3 or the current tourney scene, I would definitely choose the former, and I have all the ships and the ones I don't have are already preordered in quantity.

Anyone going from casual play to tournaments is gonna get hammered at first that's true of any game system, either you can adapt and up your game or you can't.

You can go with the perfect min maxed list and lose badly if you can't fly to a similar standard to your enemy.

Let's be honest there's always someone out there better than you and sooner or later you'll meet him or her.

The meta will shift again and again there will never be a perfect moment to go competitive, you dive in try your best and either sink or swim turret heavy meta or not.

Anyone going from casual play to tournaments is gonna get hammered at first that's true of any game system, either you can adapt and up your game or you can't.

People say this and things like, "With any game system people are going to find the best combinations and netdeck them for tournaments." The Phantom isn't something that is just mildly better than everything else, it's blatantly overpowered. It gets to move wherever it wants, roll 4-5 attack dice, combo it with gunner and FCS, and it gets 4 agility unless you specifically go out of your way to get higher PS.

It also managed to eliminate all the named pilots who can't get above 9 PS with VI. There is no point to PS bidding anymore unless you can get above 9.

The hyperbole that gets going in this things is the stuff of legend.

Anyone going from casual play to tournaments is gonna get hammered at first that's true of any game system, either you can adapt and up your game or you can't.

The Phantom isn't something that is just mildly better than everything else, it's blatantly overpowered. It gets to move wherever it wants, roll 4-5 attack dice, combo it with gunner and FCS, and it gets 4 agility unless you specifically go out of your way to get higher PS.

Then why have I, a person who enjoys fluff over optimalized lists and scenario/casual play over tournaments, destroyed... DESTROYED... Phantom lists (based on "Whisper", "Echo" or generics) every time I have faced them? It is not because I have been more skilled than my opponents (same players beat me 50% of the time) and it was not due to a particular string of good or bad dice rolling.

Yep, they are hyper-mobile and have an awesome Alpha-Strike (but that is what they were designed to do) but they are also rather fragile once you do hit them. My secret weapon? The lowly Gold Squadron Y-wing with ICT.

Holy Jesus the whining in this thread is amazing. Honestly if you truly are dead set on leaving then no amount of forum posts are going to change your mind.

For people complaining and the competitive meta and you're still playing in tournaments please stop being a scrub. I don't mean to use it in a derogatory way but please go to this link here http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win and see what I'm talking about. Why complain about people using TOP TIER lists in an environment where WINNING is the primary objective. A lot of these players equate FUN to WINNING and there's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't cheat or assault you. Play more, rethink your lists, try there lists to at least see why they use them and what all they can do, and come up with a better solution than crying about how 3 x wings aren't winning right now.

For those complaining about people using there competitive super ultra hard core smash em up no mercy sweep the leg cobra Kai lists during casual nights maybe find out if they are practicing for tournaments. If so that's fine and understandable if you don't want to play them and there list (you coward!! Lol jk) then there's nothing wrong with that either. My group has like 70-30 breakdown of tourney practicers to just wanna have funners. If tourney practice isn't your thing or you don't want to fly against fat Han for the umpteenth time then maybe ASK THEM to fly something different. Be like hey I wanna see how my squad does against a high ps only small base squad. We had a night where we decided only small bases and 65 points so we could get more rounds in and use things we don't commonly use. Maybe pitch something like that to gang? Also you could ASK THEM to play scenarios or missions. We've got like 13 or so and they can definitely change things up since they aren't just 65 minute death matches. Hell if you have the time and space do team epic matches. It is THE MOST FUN you can have in x-wing in my opinion. If team epic isn't your style do team games in general. They are great fun and build comraderie and all that jazz. Now these things here require TALKING TO PEOPLE and COMMUNICATION SKILLS. If you are sick and tired of tournament practice but don't ever speak up or try to change stuff then no one will ever get the hint. Knock off the subtlety and passive aggressiveness and just look that bastard in the eye politely ask to fly something else. If you're too scared to communicate with these intimidating nerds then you're still in luck!

TEACH YOUR FRIENDS THE GAME! If you can't stand the casual day at your game store with all these hyper elite alpha lone wolf sniper commando get wrecked we be practicing for tourney builds then go to your normal friends. If you have no normal friends then I suggest finding some! Anyway x wing isn't complicated to learn. Yeah there's a lot of depth but on the surface anyone can learn it. Keep showing it to people and eventually you'll find some who like it and you can never show them a decimator or yt or phantom! You can create and foster your own little x wing world and be like a god!!

Moral of the story? Stop complaining. You suck at the game? Get better. You hate the tournament scene? Don't go. Casual night turning into tournament practice night? Change it, talk to people, introduce your own friends into the game. It's just disheartening to see members of my fellow human race whine and cry about moving tiny plastic ships on giant mouse pads when they could be finding ways to change those situations.

News flash. People did,including myself; and it got shot down by the loudest folks in the room...the same 8 I mentioned. Your attacks on people's personalities notwithstanding, some of the advice was actually usable and tried. Unfortunately the situation had deteriorated to the point that those changes no longer became viable. As I stated before, the game is niche at my LGS because of this....at best.

Not every shop is full of the gung-ho player types, I am well aware. If you think I am going up to these guys and bitching to them about how they want to play and how it isn't fun, you are pretty much dead wrong. I discussed the alternatives. It wasn't accepted. I am fully aware that my fun is different from theirs. The damage was done long before I tried to get alternative play styles set up. I am also not so fortunate as to have a dozen places to play in my area, and vassal isn't my thing.

So I collect, and get a game in a year at best. That's how it is, but seriously step off with the personal attacks.

People will find a reason to complain about anything on the internet, but I have to say, if X-Wing was 100% healthy I don't think we'd see this level of grumbling. Something isn't kosher, but whether or not it's another sky-is-falling climactic event remains to be seen.

Just beat Dash/Corran (Lone Wolf Dash variant) with Luke, Wedge, a Bandit, and PORKINS. Porkins with R3A2 and VI was the easy MVP of the night. He put out consistent damage, maintained stress, and was actually a solid threat for only 29 points.

Winning with X-Wings today is a genuine thrill. I may have to stick with them.

I honestly dont care anymore. I was never a doom and gloom player with this game. I still enjoy this game. I do feel its in a shifting stage and things are still in motion and once everything settles then everything will be fine. I myself will be taking a personal shift to playing S&V as my main faction because dammit I claim Mando and its about time we got put in the spotlight....meanwhile I kinda will be taking a break from X-Wing once Armada hits the shelfs in order to learn that beast. This will be an interesting year for FFG

People will find a reason to complain about anything on the internet, but I have to say, if X-Wing was 100% healthy I don't think we'd see this level of grumbling. Something isn't kosher, but whether or not it's another sky-is-falling climactic event remains to be seen.

If you saw no grumbling then you should worry because people have stopped caring.

You can love something and still have complaints, arguments mean you have passion which is a good thing.

And we know ffg does not like stagnant metas they've changed things before they will again and soon we'll have complaints about turret ships sucking...And no one will get any sympathy.

I think a horsepower limited tourney also makes it easier for new players to get I to the game. How would you like to be playing your first tournament today against amped whisper, double donuts, fat dash, etc. very discouraging, I would think.

If given the choice to play a tournament limited to waves 1-3 or the current tourney scene, I would definitely choose the former, and I have all the ships and the ones I don't have are already preordered in quantity.

Except, currently, maybe xwing.

If people feel the way you feel in sufficient numbers then start a wave 3 tourney.

Or a wave whatever but just ban ACD and c3po and whatever else you want.

It's your game as much as anyone's and play it how you want.

I don't wish to sound dismissive, but I do not understand people's issues in this regard.

If your buddy will only play razor whisper lists or the phattest of Hans then ask him not to. Or at least ask to know if these boys will be appearing.

If your buddy is a **** and only wants to kerb stomp you, and you aren't at a level where phantoms just aren't that scary, or you simply don't have Lt Blount or Rebel captive or whatever...then get better gaming buddies.

It's a game, it's a two way street, and you do what you want with it.

And equally, the designers seem much more in touch with the player base than some other companies I could name.

If wave 3 tourneys took off, I suspect the folks at ffg would take notice.

You know, if I had one minor complaint for the current meta, other than being a turrent of turrets, is that it is mostly composed of EU ship, we hardly see the ships from the OT. Decimators, Phantoms, YT-2400, E-Wing, YT-1300 and Z-95 are the ships we see the most and of those six, only the Falcon is from the OT. I want my Star Wars back! But please, don't take it as if I hated the EU ships, I take a Defender almost all the time these days.

My light of hope come with Autothruster that will bring the Interceptor back and the Raider that will bring the Advanced back. So, I'm not worried that we'll see the older ship back again, but currently I feel like the OT is the EU and the EU the OT.''You brought a Bomber? Let me see those stats and dial please, I don't really know that ship...''

People will find a reason to complain about anything on the internet, but I have to say, if X-Wing was 100% healthy I don't think we'd see this level of grumbling. Something isn't kosher, but whether or not it's another sky-is-falling climactic event remains to be seen.

If you saw no grumbling then you should worry because people have stopped caring.

You can love something and still have complaints, arguments mean you have passion which is a good thing.

And we know ffg does not like stagnant metas they've changed things before they will again and soon we'll have complaints about turret ships sucking...And no one will get any sympathy.

Exactly.

We all know Mr Fell is waiting in the wings, screwdriver at hand, ready to fit his autothrusters.

Once that happens he will be eating 3 Whispers before breakfast every day.

I imagine we will get whining that the "new" interceptors have made phantoms obsolete.

But perhaps my 20 years of GW experience has coloured my judgement with regards to perceptions of broken.

For those folks who don't know what I am talking about, be thankful that you think this game has problems.

You would all have instant strokes with a mere look at Warhamner.

I played 40k for 20 years too i've seen the rise of eldar in 4th, the all mech space wolf armies of 5th and the multiwound shenanigans of greyknights, x-wing is no where near the mess 40k is.

People will find a reason to complain about anything on the internet, but I have to say, if X-Wing was 100% healthy I don't think we'd see this level of grumbling. Something isn't kosher, but whether or not it's another sky-is-falling climactic event remains to be seen.

Then the game has never been healthy. The only difference is that the meta has shifted (as it will always do) to a place where the Falcons are actually a top tier option (again). Am I the only one to remember the bitching about the Summer of the Double Falcons???

People will find a reason to complain about anything on the internet, but I have to say, if X-Wing was 100% healthy I don't think we'd see this level of grumbling. Something isn't kosher, but whether or not it's another sky-is-falling climactic event remains to be seen.

Then the game has never been healthy. The only difference is that the meta has shifted (as it will always do) to a place where the Falcons are actually a top tier option (again). Am I the only one to remember the bitching about the Summer of the Double Falcons???

No, you aren't.