To use a turret and shoot outside of the front arc should be an action. That I think would 'fix' turret complaints.

The problem is the game is 'ratcheted' to a degree, you can add but you cant restrospectively ban or change something to 'fix' it without upsetting more people than you appease.

I had a terribly tough time against Echo the other day with an 'ewing chain' (corran + FCS+ swarm, etahn + swarm, Knave)

Norminally phantoms dont bother me too much but Saturday morning i couldnt roll a hit all day, whenever i did get a shot in incredibly unlikely dice rolls saved echo... just the way it goes but the return offensive firepower coming back was crippling.

A 'fix' for me would to be to give the phantom 3 red dice, not four.

It seems a bit odd that its just more heavily armed than a decimator! In fact its got the same primary attack as a huge ship. Now that *has* to be a bit skewed narratively as well as game mechanics wise. if it represents the 'surprise' of the attack surely the ships movement alone and the ability to get into a position where you cant be shot back at is a better reflection.

But like i say, you cant go back. All they can do is add new stuff that makes the tricky stuff have a few more options to counter with.

Autothrusting squints will thin the large turret ship herd, soontir was already scary but with AT he's almost immortal against a yt.

The new Scum faction will have a very good counter to the ACD phantom coming out. Palob, the hwk pilot who drops your PS to 0. Also auto blaster turrets don't allow evades to work.

The phantom has set the high PS, turret, big ship meta because it has chased away all the swarms. But a 6 A-wing swarm just went 8-0 in a 42 person store championship. The meta is always changing and new ship/card combos are always being found.

I'm sorry you aren't having fun. I just read the article by Sable Griphon about his Bomber Prox mine list. It's got me thinking about what I cad do with my three bombers.

I say hang onto your stuff. I've kept my Magic and Jyhad cards years after I stopped playing. Having them still makes me happy.

It reads to me like you may be too triggered to see past the current meta. A few months off and new tourney results could shine light into the gloom.

Thanks for the reply and well wishes. I don't know what triggered means in this context, but I reckon I'd be something like "annoyed"?

It's too much money to sit on in the hopes it'll become interesting again. I don't like having stuff sitting around, it bugs me.

Seriously, keep your stuff! At least in my personal experience, you might have less interest now, but that usually comes back, triggered by something (an old game, watching the movies again, Ep VII...) and then you'll want your toys back.

I definitely understand your position, albeit I don't see how X-Wing lost its way. It isn't the game's fault, that people play to win by all means necessary. People choose to act this way and tournaments enforce a certain play style. Tournaments will do that to even the best balanced of games; cheesy lists that have no flavour are just a symptom of people trying to win desperately, working for their victory instead of coming up with interesting scenarios or thematic limits they just have to deal with. This is also why I don't like tournaments. I'm not a horrible player, but I just don't like to see that being done to a franchise or background I like.

I can see how that is fun to some people: You work for your victory. If all other conditions are equal (always the same asteroid field dogfight, samey lists, etc.) only skill and to some extent the dice decide - although the latter is an equal factor to both players. This means working on your skill as a player is rewarded, choosing a difficult list equals shooting yourself in the foot. However, for me this becomes boring, tedious work. It's not fun, it's just another "job" I have to do after hours, not to have fun, but to win. I have a lot more fun if I have to make do with a list I didn't "max out", but think is interesting. Whether I lose or not, is not as important; if it's a close match I'll have fun and that is what I pay FFG to give me.

An alternate idea for tournaments I have been part of, was a giant thematic 7v7 battle in a different game. Every player had a small list, most specialized assets were in the hands of a team commander, every player had their own objectives and their own "section of the frontline", so to speak, but you could help each other out, if needed. One of the hosts stopped the time - 5 minutes tops for every phase. In X-Wing that could mean a thematic battle with squadrons of B-Wings and Y-Wings kitted out to destroy Imperial targets, with A- and X-Wings for escort, while the Imps would get a similar setup for their side. "Hero" units like the Millenium Falcon etc. would be limited to one.

In our game, each player racked up a personal score, depending on how many objectives they completed, targets they destroyed etc. determining their worth to the team effort. This combined competitive and coop gameplay. There were prizes for being part of the winning team and for the best three individual players from both teams. However the "top three best individual player prizes" were worth less, than the winning team prize (they also got that one of course, if they were in the winning team) and were more considered a bonus / consolation prize.

At the end of the day, everyone had lots of fun, we saw some unusual action on the table, the win-by-all-means-types were just as satisfied as the more fluff oriented crowd. Worked out great. So maybe simply try playing more scenarios, come up with your own, mix things up and limit lists, e.g. "A New Hope": only TIE, TIE/x1, TIE Bomber, X-Wing, Z-95, Y-Wing and one Falcon allowed (rest wasn't around yet). Some of the greatest games I've played were with lists, in which I didn't get a say.

"Here's a platoon of tanks and an infantry coy, no air, no arty. Now go take that village."

tl;dr: X-Wing is fine, tournaments just enforce a certain playstyle that you either like or don't, play more scenarios and limited forces

Gee maybe the game designer got that idea from another player that did the same thing a week before him? And more uncommon builds are winning right now then straight "meta" lists.

I know people here are absolutely obsessed with marking the first public posting/use of a list as its origination, but this game is not complicated. Players are perfectly capable of putting multiple of a ship on the table and determining that C-3PO works well in a YT-1300.

I don't think that OP is objectively right in his assessment of the state of the game, but there appears to be a group of people who are becoming somewhat estranged of X-Wing and how it has developed. This might be a clue that different ways of play, rathar than min/maxing the 100 pt. lists, deserve more attention. The release of more epic ships is a good step, but a scenario supplement might also be a good idea. Perhaps "scenario templates" could make play formats more diverse - you know, things like Capture the Flag, Kill the Leader, etc. I think it's sometimes called random missions.

I'm not moved. This is another post heavily influenced by and practically regurgitating "forum wisdom" rather than a view wholly reached by oneself.

The game used to be much more fun, where any list had a sporting chance at least of making something of a match.

Rose-tinted goggles. The TIE swarm used to rip everything apart, named pilots were barely used because it was a game of maximising the dice you could throw. Wave 4 was meant specifically to mix things up: the problem is the community went hysterical over a certain three winged ship. What happens when people start screaming OP? It's suddenly everywhere. Someone found the old HSF setup (VI Han Solo) could take it down most easily. Someone who's phantom couldn't handle Han Solo screamed OP, now Falcons are everywhere.

Without another specific counter, I'm dead against a fat chiraneau or dash.

And now this is definitely "internet wisdom". Even if, for the sake of argument, we consider a Falcon built for maximum damage reduction and an ACD TIE phantom to be too powerful, the Outrider or the Decimator? They're nowhere near as durable as they look, the Decimator flies like a brick and if the Outrider's packing a Heavy Laser it can suddenly be arcdodged. That, and in the Scum

As for Scum, I honestly can't see what you're complaining about. They have new ships with new pilot abilities. None of them are invincible and none of them have turrets. You're going to have to be much more specific here.

The HWK, Z-95, Firespray and Y-wing are all ships we've seen before.
The Scyk's like a weaker A-wing with more upgrade options.
The StarViper's an interceptor.
The IG-2000 is a fast large-based ship with a frontal arc only.

We don't need a third faction and we don't need so many rule-breaking ships

None of the ships break the rules. As for a third faction not being needed, you've seen the pool of remaining Rebel and Imperial ships that aren't abominations from the deepest depths of the EU, right? Not many of them.

People beat these lists all the time, but they continue be thought as as WAAC win buttons because we only ever talk about builds on this forum and therefore ships that are either easy or obvious how to fly dominate. If people actually discussed or shared strategies for flying ships it'd be a very different story.

I do think the game is getting a little over whelming and that there are certain lists that seem to dominate. As for the lists, in our group, we just don't play them. Playing large turreted ships sucks the fun out of it for us. But there are a few idea that no everyone would like.

A) No mirror matches. That way a TIE swarm will not face a Phantom.

B) Max 1 large ship per side. Actually I'd like to bump this to 1 large ship per 150 points. Just a though. Freighters as your main fighter is very unthematic for me. Or maybe only 1 turreted large per so many points.

C) I know this is controversial, but squad building rules. Some many B-Wings allows per X-Wing. 1 Phantom/75 points So many Large per Small, etc... It doesn't have to get complicated just a few basics could very easily bring balance to the game and the force.

As for the over whelming part. I net-list. I have to. I don't play often enough to know what should go with what. I seldom play large but would occasionally. Yes to more missions, yes to missions with prebuilt squads, yes to more goal orientated missions. There should be a list of most common combos. Tarn with R7; A-Wing with refit and title, etc... How would a new player know that to field an Interceptor best you'd need the Interceptor expansion, a couple of the Aces expansion and Star Viper.

I've had the pleasure of teaching 4 people this game over the last fortnight. I haven't played any of them, just sat back and watched, coached and refereed. Its been great

X-wings vs Tie fighters. Maybe an Interceptor or B-wing thrown in. One named pilot per side. Couple of upgrades. Its been almost soul cleansing.

One of these people asked me "what's this?" holding up my cloak token. It felt like a moment out of Lord of the Rings......My Precious!!! I only bought a phantom to shake up the Alpha Gamer at my club, otherwise Ties, Ints and Firesprays are the only ships I use.

I won't let them use it. Enjoy the game as it is, or should be.

Its still a fun game, always will be, but sometimes the fun can be lost.

I think sometimes its the opponent more than the game.

Indeed nothing stopping the OP from calling an informal meeting and suggesting that the game is more than the tournament meta, have a two week ban on large ships, make the most you can spend on any ship 40 points etc.

I very rarely run the same list twice in a row, by being unpredictable friends can't make a counter list and instead have to go for a take on all comets mentality which means alot more variety.

Gee, the designer of the game? Yeah dunno how he could do that.

His A-wings are exactly the same as your A-wings.

With all respect to Paul Heaver who I've never met or played with, I was very disappointed that he won World's with a Fat Han list. If he had won with something less common, or dare I say unique even, then I'd be very impressed. But the fact that he took it shows how powerful (or even overpowered) it is.

Or that's what he wanted to fly?

Fat Turrets dominate tournaments because of the Margin of Victory mechanic. It strongly encourages very expensive ships, because they can stall until time is called and then even if they're on one hit point they count for nothing towards your opponent's kills. That simply doesn't apply to non-tournament, non-timed games.

i don't know if this has been brought up earlier in the thread (I only skimmed it) but seeing all of the Deci and YT builds also has to do with what is available atm. I've introduced several new players since the new year, but our shop only has: Tantive, Transport, Lambda, Outrider, Deci, and HWK in stock. That really limits what new players can choose from, and effects what gets played locally.

Plus they're new. Everyone wants to use the new shiny.

The Phantom is blatantly broken. It has 4 base attack dice, has essentially 4 base agility, it gets a free 2 barrel roll, its action, a free target lock, and another shot if it somehow misses its first that the Target Lock can be used on.

The 4 attack dice is balanced by the fact that it only fires every other turn.

It only has 4 agility while cloaked and it cannot attack while cloaked.

If you block its 2 barrel roll, it will either need to stay cloaked, or decloak facing the wrong direction.

It does not get a free target lock, I do not know where you got that from.

Anything with gunner and TL can do this, it is nothing new...

You are complaining specifically about Whisper + VI + ACD. That is different from the Phantom itself.

The Phantom isn't the issue, the issue is the timing of ACD. Just my 2 cents worth.

A suggestion for Force Kin, try playing at 150 points rather than 100. It opens things up to all sorts of interesting options even if Falcons, Phantoms and such are involved. I had a great game the other week with Whisper, Rex and 5 Accademy pilots flying against Han, Blout, Gemmer, three Protos and a Bandit.

My question for the OP is this: Do you only play at tournaments? Is tournaments the only way your interested in playing the game? Are you interested in playing Casual games?

Vassal continues to be future glasses into where the meta is going and things are shifting in big ways. I see many more 4-5 ship builds and less turrets everyday. Even the Phantom is not seeing the play they once did. sure they are still around and there was a period of time where you could not see a game with the mentioned squads (Falcons, Phantoms and so on....). AT some point this game will all die to every single one of us. You just have to let yourself run the course and find out when that is. If today is the day X-Wing dies to you, it was fun enjoy the time you had and leave peacefully (and quietly). Otherwise grab a ship and make some ""pew pew" noises.

I have a friend that runs 2 sigmas with particle accelerators and sensor jammer. And Carnor jax.

It's a mean build.

A suggestion for Force Kin, try playing at 150 points rather than 100. It opens things up to all sorts of interesting options even if Falcons, Phantoms and such are involved. I had a great game the other week with Whisper, Rex and 5 Accademy pilots flying against Han, Blout, Gemmer, three Protos and a Bandit.

Whether this is the answer or not .. I'm not sure. But trying new games, scenarios and rules with your fellas is always refreshing. Maybe apply an Original ship rule EU pilots are acceptable but only OT ships are permitted. Just

an idea.

Sounds more to me like the OP has lost their way rather than the game. If you're stuck in a rut, it's up to you to find a way to make things more enjoyable.

If you don't like playing competitive 100 point games all the time, no one's forcing you to. The core set and large ship expansions all offer a range of narrative missions, there's cinematic play, epic play, and of course you can always try and come up campaigns etc. Ask not what the game can do for you, but what YOU can do for the game.

...and fly casual.

I have not read past the first page, but the venue I play at we have tournaments every quarter or so, but most weeks just show up and play. Very little meta and a lot of fun.

Sounds more to me like the OP has lost their way rather than the game. If you're stuck in a rut, it's up to you to find a way to make things more enjoyable.

If you don't like playing competitive 100 point games all the time, no one's forcing you to. The core set and large ship expansions all offer a range of narrative missions, there's cinematic play, epic play, and of course you can always try and come up campaigns etc. Ask not what the game can do for you, but what YOU can do for the game.

...and fly casual.

The guy's got a point. It's a tabletop game, not a video one. Outside of tournaments anything you don't like you can change.

Started last June. Don't really get the complaining over turrets. It still matters how you maneuver, it's just different. The extremeness of good and bad phantoms is frustrating, but they can generally be outflown if you work at with a dedicated list. If your opponent is doing well with a phantom then they didn't just pick it up today. Scum will have some answers for some of these, but if you really don't enjoy the game then I don't see what that would matter.

In general the "I used to be able to bring everything." complaint is just a complaint that the level of play is steadily rising.

Anti phantom tactics aren't enough. A given list without a very specific plan for phantoms is dead against one.

Since anti-phantom lists and tactics include:

Ps9

Ps10

Ps11

Ps12

Stress

Blocking

Turrets

Gunner/Luke

Vader crew

Swarms

Ion

4+dice attacks in general

Many of those things can be included in multiple ways and all of them are also needed to deal with other ps9, ultra-maneuverable ships. If that's not enough list diversity to keep you entertained then you are trying to play a much more boring game than the rest of us lol.

That is a bit of a disingenuous list. The first 4 items are all the same thing. And without high PS or a turret, most of the others are usually useless. Gunner, Vader, stress and 4-dice attacks are all pretty useless if you can't get the Phantom in arc.

If I was going to put together an honest list, I would say it is made up of:

1. High PS, ideally with activation phase movement adjustment (Boost/Barrel Roll/Stay On Target) if you don't want to play the guessing game

2. Gunner/Vader/Stress/4-dice/Ion with turret or high PS

3. Blocking

Doesn't look so diverse when we don't list the same thing 4 times or if we don't list things that aren't actually a counter unless paired with one or more other things.

Sure, sure, sure, anything could beat anything. But anecdotes are just anecdotes. Just because unlikely things happen doesn't mean there is no issue.

Thank you. Funny enough, the post this list of phantom counters was replying to said mostly that.

There are certainly phantom counters but they are all completely reworking your list. Simply throwing an ion canon turret or a ps10 ship, or a stress mechanic is not enough. Yiu need a combination of things: multiple arcs above ps9 or with initiative, stress and Ps advantage, blocking only works if you can maneuver the phantom into a side of the board or exactly in the middle of an asteroid field, there is just no way to effectively block all the decloak lanes otherwise.

Yiu either have an anti phantom list or you get railroaded by phantoms. Boring game dynamic.

that last bit is wildly untrue.

It takes 3 ships to block ALL the decloak lanes. But you only need to block one. The dial is still only one manuever at a time, and the best decloak is handcuffed to that manuever. If you kill the beat decloak lane, you kill the whole turn. Phantom will either stay cloaked, make the wrong move, and end up facing the wrong direction. Or best case, uncloaked, facing the wrong direction.

It's really not hard to figure out which lane is the most ideal, in the same way it's not hard to block any other ship.

To be able to block a phantom decloaking you have to be able to get to a location you can block from. The best flown Phantoms I have seen have players who never put themselves in position to be blocked.

My question for the OP is this: Do you only play at tournaments? Is tournaments the only way your interested in playing the game? Are you interested in playing Casual games?

Vassal continues to be future glasses into where the meta is going and things are shifting in big ways. I see many more 4-5 ship builds and less turrets everyday. Even the Phantom is not seeing the play they once did. sure they are still around and there was a period of time where you could not see a game with the mentioned squads (Falcons, Phantoms and so on....). AT some point this game will all die to every single one of us. You just have to let yourself run the course and find out when that is. If today is the day X-Wing dies to you, it was fun enjoy the time you had and leave peacefully (and quietly). Otherwise grab a ship and make some ""pew pew" noises.

Meta on Vassal is not real life tournament meta. Of course right now players want to try out different lists, if those lists lose to the current meta in tournaments then nothing will change.

I think this game is awesome and I will probably be playing it for years to come. However I believe its at the crossroads. On the one hand it is going from strength to strength, based on a bit of a guess work looking at how many are in the recent tournaments for nationals/worlds etc. But on the other hand there is a lot of people who are upset about the "meta".

I think FFG should listen to the people by asking those who participate in official tournaments what they think about the game. Maybe a quick survey would show where the game should be heading. Then everyone could have there say equally.

Oh jeez, look, another cry baby thread. I don't get it, if you don't like the game, then don't play. Bitching about on here just makes you look terrible. Oh no, turrets and phantoms. If you can't figure a way to beat them, then try a list with them. You're probably one of those people who would ***** if there wasn't enough diversity in the game.