redlettermedia did a good job destroying these movies. I highly recommendthose reviews. you can find them on YouTube. its required watching to join in a sw game I run.

The maxi-chlorians?

Oh, and once you have midi-chlorians and maxi-chlorians, then we have to start asking about micro-chlorians and milli-chlorians and nano-chlorians and pico-chlorians and femto-chlorians and atto-chlorians and mega-chlorians and giga-chlorians and tera-chlorians and peta-chlorians, and all those other SI prefixes.

Once you open that “Pandora’s Box”, there’s no going back. Never. Ever. Never ever. Ad infinitum.

Board wipe time.

The maxi-chlorians?

Oh, and once you have midi-chlorians and maxi-chlorians, then we have to start asking about micro-chlorians and milli-chlorians and nano-chlorians and pico-chlorians and femto-chlorians and atto-chlorians and mega-chlorians and giga-chlorians and tera-chlorians and peta-chlorians, and all those other SI prefixes.Once you open that “Pandora’s Box”, there’s no going back. Never. Ever. Never ever. Ad infinitum.Board wipe time.

angry table flip!

The first time I saw "Phantom Menace", I was tolerating the movie, thinking that it just hadn't "gotten good" yet... up until they mentioned midichlorians. Once I heard Liam Neeson (an incredibly cool actor, totally under-utilized in the movie) reduce the Force to some germs living in your blood stream, I pretty much had enough. I remember getting actually mad as I sat in the theater, and I just stewed over it for the rest of the movie. Not that the movie ever actually "got good", mind you, so it didn't ruin anything for me.

You can botch the plot line of a movie, you can waste the talents of great actors, use others who can't act their way out of a paper bag, employ laughingly-offensive stereotypes for several characters, and even include The Most Annoying Movie Character Ever (he who must not be named), and I can be forgiving. After all, even bad Star Wars is still Star Wars, and I'll take what I can get. But... don't mess with the Force!!!

Even the name "midichlorians" is deceptive; they purposely had it sound like "midichloria" (a type of bacteria) and "mitochondria" (part of a cell) to make it sound all sciencey. I've been perfectly happy considering the Force as a mystical power, a universal binding energy, or the Star Wars universe's version of God (or all three) for the past 30-something years, and they weren't about to ruin it for me.

So... in my game, midichlorians don't exist, just like there was never a second "Highlander" movie. The concept is an abomination (much like the aforementioned non-existent second "Highlander" movie) and I'll have nothing to do with it.

At least, that's my opinion

What i found sad is several of the actors people thought couldnt act went on to do good acting in other films or in prior movies did great acting. Which goes to show how important good directing is. And George is a good producer and a terrible director.

Because they have a silly name?

as to midichlorians the destroy the mysticism. The mysteriousness is better than knowing.

Haden Christiansen is an awful actor who I could never take seriously.

JarJar was a clown whose only purpose was to sell toys and keep the kiddies giggling.

The droid troopers where all programmed to be mentally handicapped and deliver painfully bad one liners... I mean who PURPOSELY decided "you know what these killer droids we're going to use in our army need? To be mentally incompetent and to chatter back and forth like they're in a 3 stooges segment".

These are what I hate about the prequels the rest I was mostly ok with. I just don't understand how the Jedi finding a way to measure he force ruins anything. I mean if anything it closes a huge hole in the plot. If they had an academy intent on teaching how to use the force the logical first step would be to try and understand it and that starts with figuring out where it comes from would it not? Especially if their plan is to build an army of sorts with it understanding why some people have it and others don't seems almost neccessary for those in charge of constructing the academy.

It still lets them do amazing things sub as feel the universe around them and energies within it and so forth so I just don't see why ignorance of its cause (which there always would be some sort of cause even if they didn't tell us) would some how steal from that magic. I mean you still have this incredible power set they're all connected to and it's not fully explained why some people get the midoclorians and others don't so to some extent at least the chain of cause is still left dangling in obscurity, they just added one more link to it.

Oh and for the earlier poster claiming us older folks are all on the anti side I grew up on the original trilogy. Given I'm only 29 but that's old enough to not have been first introduced to the prequels and I'm certainly not on the anti-midoclorians side. I'm not sure if this is more my own line of thought being more of a skeptic and liking rational answers or something else though. I've just found trying to understand things claimed as mystic always more fascinating than being content with faith.

Midichlorians ruined the mystery/ appeal of the Jedi. Took away the whole fantasy aspect of Star Wars.

I see people say this all the time, but they never manage to articulate exactly how this concept ruins Jedi, makes them less mystical. How does it do that?

I'm not sure if this is more my own line of thought being more of a skeptic and liking rational answers or something else though. I've just found trying to understand things claimed as mystic always more fascinating than being content with faith.

Personal faith and understanding aside, it's a matter of "heart" and "mind", and which is supposed to be applied. Most good science fiction is definitely of the "mind". Examples of this would be anything by Issac Asimov, or Heinlein, were rationality wins the day. As such, an explanation like midichlorians might be appropriate in a plot line.

But Star Wars is not science fiction. It's science fantasy, or "space opera". The "mind" aspect of it definitely takes a back seat to the "heart". The science in Star Wars generally makes no sense whatsoever, and is there only to enhance the storyline or to show really cool giant space ships. Even our beloved game here works from a narrative, or cinematic, approach, where the story is king and good plots win out over quibbles about science any day of the week. Star Wars is definitely about the "heart", not the "mind".

So... which explanation of the Force works better for Star Wars? A dry, boring, rational (if not pseudo-scientific) concept of tiny parasites living in your blood? Or a vast, powerful mystic energy field, flowing through us all, binding the universe together, where death is merely a another beginning? I know which one I'll pick

Or to put it another way... try picturing playing D&D without magic and monsters

For me, the problem with midichlorians (and the way they ruin the mysticism and mystery of the Jedi) is that they trade out nurture for nature. From what we see in the OT, the Force is something Luke has to work at to master. It's tough. He whines. He says it's too hard. Yoda tells him to suck it up: "Do or do not, there is no try." Learning to still his mind, trust himself, and master the Force is a major part of Luke's growth as a character.

But when the concept of a "midichlorian count" comes in, we suddenly have characters with greater or lesser Force potential based solely on how many microscopic bugs live in their cells. It cheapens the Force by making it less about the user's personal discipline and commitment by instead making it an accident of biology.

I want my Jedi to be fueled by force of will to master their craft, and I want my Sith to be fueled by rage and ambition. You don't need tiny blood particles to do that, and that concept, in fact, detracts from how the Force is otherwise characterized in the OT.

Haden Christiansen is an awful actor who I could never take seriously.

JarJar was a clown whose only purpose was to sell toys and keep the kiddies giggling.

The droid troopers where all programmed to be mentally handicapped and deliver painfully bad one liners... I mean who PURPOSELY decided "you know what these killer droids we're going to use in our army need? To be mentally incompetent and to chatter back and forth like they're in a 3 stooges segment".

These are what I hate about the prequels the rest I was mostly ok with. I just don't understand how the Jedi finding a way to measure he force ruins anything. I mean if anything it closes a huge hole in the plot. If they had an academy intent on teaching how to use the force the logical first step would be to try and understand it and that starts with figuring out where it comes from would it not? Especially if their plan is to build an army of sorts with it understanding why some people have it and others don't seems almost neccessary for those in charge of constructing the academy.

It still lets them do amazing things sub as feel the universe around them and energies within it and so forth so I just don't see why ignorance of its cause (which there always would be some sort of cause even if they didn't tell us) would some how steal from that magic. I mean you still have this incredible power set they're all connected to and it's not fully explained why some people get the midoclorians and others don't so to some extent at least the chain of cause is still left dangling in obscurity, they just added one more link to it.

Oh and for the earlier poster claiming us older folks are all on the anti side I grew up on the original trilogy. Given I'm only 29 but that's old enough to not have been first introduced to the prequels and I'm certainly not on the anti-midoclorians side. I'm not sure if this is more my own line of thought being more of a skeptic and liking rational answers or something else though. I've just found trying to understand things claimed as mystic always more fascinating than being content with faith.

Watch Hayden in a different movie. He can act...when he has a decent director.

For me, the problem with midichlorians (and the way they ruin the mysticism and mystery of the Jedi) is that they trade out nurture for nature. From what we see in the OT, the Force is something Luke has to work at to master. It's tough. He whines. He says it's too hard. Yoda tells him to suck it up: "Do or do not, there is no try." Learning to still his mind, trust himself, and master the Force is a major part of Luke's growth as a character.

But when the concept of a "midichlorian count" comes in, we suddenly have characters with greater or lesser Force potential based solely on how many microscopic bugs live in their cells. It cheapens the Force by making it less about the user's personal discipline and commitment by instead making it an accident of biology.

I want my Jedi to be fueled by force of will to master their craft, and I want my Sith to be fueled by rage and ambition. You don't need tiny blood particles to do that, and that concept, in fact, detracts from how the Force is otherwise characterized in the OT.

I don't mind different potentials. It is the tying it to bugs germs or some other known factor that cheapens it. It is better if the why some are better at the force than others is unknown.

But Star Wars is not science fiction. It's science fantasy, or "space opera". The "mind" aspect of it definitely takes a back seat to the "heart". The science in Star Wars generally makes no sense whatsoever, and is there only to enhance the storyline or to show really cool giant space ships. Even our beloved game here works from a narrative, or cinematic, approach, where the story is king and good plots win out over quibbles about science any day of the week. Star Wars is definitely about the "heart", not the "mind".

So... which explanation of the Force works better for Star Wars? A dry, boring, rational (if not pseudo-scientific) concept of tiny parasites living in your blood? Or a vast, powerful mystic energy field, flowing through us all, binding the universe together, where death is merely a another beginning? I know which one I'll pick

Or to put it another way... try picturing playing D&D without magic and monsters

I get that I do, but I still don't see any appeal in "it works because **** it magic". It's not dry or boring to me to have a good explanation for "why" things occur. Ie I Max Brooks version of zombies that are run by a virus that assaults the brain where he describes exactly how it occurs is far more interesting to me than the kind that are just used as "um well, because we don't know it's mysterious". Similarly with comic heroes I like when they have rational (again even if pseudo scientific) reasons they got their powers, ie I don't find the x-men bland simply because their powers come from mutations instead of some cosmic unfathomable force (well most of them at least). To me it feels almost lazy writing to just write it off on some mystical source. To each their own of course, I get that my view is the less popular one in this situation but none the less I just don't find giving a rational reason for something to be dry or boring, the fact is regardless of if it's a field of unknown power or an organic source of sorts the end result is the same, you get a group of people with the ability to do amazing things and I think in the end that's what matters the most.

Watch Hayden in a different movie. He can act...when he has a decent director.

Fair enough, but the other actors in star wars all outdid him, so I wouldn't throw it all on George (lots of other factors as well such as the writers, editors, etc).

Watch a new hope then watch qui gon gins description then tell me which you prefer the force to be.

For me, the problem with midichlorians (and the way they ruin the mysticism and mystery of the Jedi) is that they trade out nurture for nature. From what we see in the OT, the Force is something Luke has to work at to master. It's tough. He whines. He says it's too hard. Yoda tells him to suck it up: "Do or do not, there is no try." Learning to still his mind, trust himself, and master the Force is a major part of Luke's growth as a character.

But when the concept of a "midichlorian count" comes in, we suddenly have characters with greater or lesser Force potential based solely on how many microscopic bugs live in their cells. It cheapens the Force by making it less about the user's personal discipline and commitment by instead making it an accident of biology.

I want my Jedi to be fueled by force of will to master their craft, and I want my Sith to be fueled by rage and ambition. You don't need tiny blood particles to do that, and that concept, in fact, detracts from how the Force is otherwise characterized in the OT.

Eh kind of kind of not. Who's to say that the Midicholorians (no clue how to spell it myself) don't have the ability to duplicate as all living organisms do? It could be tied to personal training and growth, ie the brain chemistry and a symbiotic like relationship where as the user improves his/her harmony with the other life form he/she gains the ability to produce more. I mean it's really no different if you remove the Midicholorians either as no matter how hard some people might want to use the force in the original trilogy it is still only a few who have the ability to do so. The only difference with the addition of them is, is that now we know "why" only certain people have access. It doesn't say anything about potential to grow, ultimate limitations, etc. Instead it just insinuates that some people are born with a natural advantage, no different than before except now instead of just being more naturally tied to a mystic power they're simply born with more of them.

Eh kind of kind of not. Who's to say that the Midicholorians (no clue how to spell it myself) don't have the ability to duplicate as all living organisms do? It could be tied to personal training and growth, ie the brain chemistry and a symbiotic like relationship where as the user improves his/her harmony with the other life form he/she gains the ability to produce more. I mean it's really no different if you remove the Midicholorians either as no matter how hard some people might want to use the force in the original trilogy it is still only a few who have the ability to do so. The only difference with the addition of them is, is that now we know "why" only certain people have access. It doesn't say anything about potential to grow, ultimate limitations, etc. Instead it just insinuates that some people are born with a natural advantage, no different than before except now instead of just being more naturally tied to a mystic power they're simply born with more of them.

Do we ever get any suggestion that some people can't be Force-sensitive in the OT? I think that was a concept cooked up in the EU, but I could be wrong.

And the idea that some people are born with more of a potential advantage to use the Force is exactly what I like least about midichlorians. If the explanation in the films had been that the more you train, the more midichlorians you get, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with the concept. But the PT introduces Anakin as some sort of off-the-charts midichlorian monster, which flies in the face of the mystical aspects of Luke's training in the OT.

In short, I want space wizards, not genetic rationalizations. I want planet-hopping monks, not Übermensch who are better than everyone else because of their biology. I realize others have no problem with the midichlorian idea, but I stand by my dislike for the concept.

Watch Hayden in a different movie. He can act...when he has a decent director.

Fair enough, but the other actors in star wars all outdid him, so I wouldn't throw it all on George (lots of other factors as well such as the writers, editors, etc).

Well from what I hear from the actors. His direction is "Faster more intense" That is all they get to work with. Haydon was fairly new at that point. Where as the other actors had some more experience. So I do put a lot on the director as the Director is the one giving the feedback as to whether you are doing a good job. And if you get crappy feedback your performance is going to suffer a lot. More experienced actors will suffer less but will still suffer.

Eh kind of kind of not. Who's to say that the Midicholorians (no clue how to spell it myself) don't have the ability to duplicate as all living organisms do? It could be tied to personal training and growth, ie the brain chemistry and a symbiotic like relationship where as the user improves his/her harmony with the other life form he/she gains the ability to produce more. I mean it's really no different if you remove the Midicholorians either as no matter how hard some people might want to use the force in the original trilogy it is still only a few who have the ability to do so. The only difference with the addition of them is, is that now we know "why" only certain people have access. It doesn't say anything about potential to grow, ultimate limitations, etc. Instead it just insinuates that some people are born with a natural advantage, no different than before except now instead of just being more naturally tied to a mystic power they're simply born with more of them.

Do we ever get any suggestion that some people can't be Force-sensitive in the OT? I think that was a concept cooked up in the EU, but I could be wrong.

And the idea that some people are born with more of a potential advantage to use the Force is exactly what I like least about midichlorians. If the explanation in the films had been that the more you train, the more midichlorians you get, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with the concept. But the PT introduces Anakin as some sort of off-the-charts midichlorian monster, which flies in the face of the mystical aspects of Luke's training in the OT.

In short, I want space wizards, not genetic rationalizations. I want planet-hopping monks, not Übermensch who are better than everyone else because of their biology. I realize others have no problem with the midichlorian idea, but I stand by my dislike for the concept.

There was no suggestion in either way. Other than it is a rare ability. Rare ability tends to imply people can't do it with out the ability,

Midichlorians ruined the mystery/ appeal of the Jedi. Took away the whole fantasy aspect of Star Wars.

I see people say this all the time, but they never manage to articulate exactly how this concept ruins Jedi, makes them less mystical. How does it do that?

I am giving it a shot.

In Episode IV: A New Hope, Obi-Wan Kenobi explains the Force to Luke as " an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. "

Probably we all agree that this explanation is vague and "mystical".

(By definition mystical means:

1. relating to mystics or religious mysticism.

Kenobi talks about all living things being connected together and tied to the whole galaxy. It evokes a feeling of something big, omnipresent, beyond what science can explain. It is not rational neither quantifiable.

Then came Qui-Gon Jinn and said things like:

"Midi-chlorians are microscopic organisms which allow Jedi and other Force-sensitive beings to connect to the Force."

and did things like:

"Using a blood test to determine midi-chlorian counts to locate a force-sensitive children to train."

and said things like:

"he has over 20,000, even higher than Master Yoda."

While it is true that the concept of midi-chlorians does not change the mysticism of the force itself (that energy field that permeates everything), it adds a level of rationalisation to the whole issue. All of a sudden we get a biological definition of a Jedi! A Jedi is someone with that many or more midi-chlorians in his blood. Before that, Jedi were special people who could connect to the force. How? We did not know. That made Jedis mysterious, awe inspiring beings. Now they are not mysterious anymore, they are just people with more than average levels of midi-chlorians, point. One could even say Ah great! get me a bone marrow transplant (like the ones made for the treatment of leukemia) from Anakin, I want to be a Jedi too.

In my opinion, through the rationalisation of what a force user is, the midi-chlorians strip the whole force concept of its original mysticism.

Sumarized:

Mystical power: Cool.

Micro organisms: Not cool.

Do we ever get any suggestion that some people can't be Force-sensitive in the OT? I think that was a concept cooked up in the EU, but I could be wrong.

There was no suggestion in either way. Other than it is a rare ability. Rare ability tends to imply people can't do it with out the ability,

To answer my own question, I guess we do need to account for Vader's comment about Luke: "The Force is strong with this one," and Luke's comments to Leia: "The Force runs strong in my family. My father has it. I have it. My sister has it."

Still, I agree with others who would prefer that the exact mechanisms by which the Force can flow in a family be left unexplained. Don't even get me started on the EU's fondness for entire species of Force-sensitives....

There seems to be a tacit consensus that midi-chlorians were a huge mistake on the part of George Lucas, usually listed next to Jar Jar Binks in a list of stuff the prequels ruined.

Nah, no hate for Jar-Jar here. Midi-Mitochondrians though... that's another matter.

Put bluntly, the older fans didn't need or want a change from science-fantasy to a 'harder' scioence-fiction. Obi-Wan's early summation of the Force was enough for us.

Now, to the astonishment of my players, when I made sweeping changes to the lore, I kept mid-whatsits in.

So in our games, they have something to do with the Force... maybe. What they don't d o is indicate the presence of a Force-use in a being, or indicate levels of power. As Jolee Bindo said, sometimes 'swirls of Force' are just... swirls of Force. But they have something to do with the Force, just nobody knows what. Billions of credits have been spent on all sides, with no consensus, and at this point, 'midicholrian theory' is considered quackery, like phrenology.

The Empire couldn't care less about Force users anyway; they have quite a bit to worry about between their brutal civil war and losing the Galactic Civil War.

The Alliance have an entire program to train Force-users and would love to get them early, but their experiments on Midichlorian Theory bear little fruit.

The Jedi are ruthless proponents of the 'Force is biological' ideas - they have complicated nobles houses based on bloodlines and very restrictive breeding as a consequence. They see non-Force users as children at best. The Sith just don't care where their powers come from either way.

The Shadow Collective don't care - any crime lord would like an asset that can hurl starships around with their mind, and they don't care where the 'biotics' come from.

Lucas Lars and the Followers of the Temple are the proponents of the 'Force is in everything' belief. Because, y'know, 'it surrounds us and penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together'... Lucas believes all beings can eventually become Force-sensitives through enlightenment.

Only my canon, obviously, but it's one of the big diferences between the various factions we have, along with their attitudes to those poor non-Force-sensitive droids...

TL:DR - in our games, midiwhatsits are a nonsense, but some people cling really strongly to their favoured nonsense...

Eh kind of kind of not. Who's to say that the Midicholorians (no clue how to spell it myself) don't have the ability to duplicate as all living organisms do? It could be tied to personal training and growth, ie the brain chemistry and a symbiotic like relationship where as the user improves his/her harmony with the other life form he/she gains the ability to produce more. I mean it's really no different if you remove the Midicholorians either as no matter how hard some people might want to use the force in the original trilogy it is still only a few who have the ability to do so. The only difference with the addition of them is, is that now we know "why" only certain people have access. It doesn't say anything about potential to grow, ultimate limitations, etc. Instead it just insinuates that some people are born with a natural advantage, no different than before except now instead of just being more naturally tied to a mystic power they're simply born with more of them.

Do we ever get any suggestion that some people can't be Force-sensitive in the OT? I think that was a concept cooked up in the EU, but I could be wrong.

And the idea that some people are born with more of a potential advantage to use the Force is exactly what I like least about midichlorians. If the explanation in the films had been that the more you train, the more midichlorians you get, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with the concept. But the PT introduces Anakin as some sort of off-the-charts midichlorian monster, which flies in the face of the mystical aspects of Luke's training in the OT.

In short, I want space wizards, not genetic rationalizations. I want planet-hopping monks, not Übermensch who are better than everyone else because of their biology. I realize others have no problem with the midichlorian idea, but I stand by my dislike for the concept.

This reminds me of the movie "Gattaca", which I really liked despite it starring Ethan Hawke, who has the acting ability of a paper clip. I liked it specifically because it showed that the human heart more than makes up for genetic superiority. At the end, it even listed a bunch of people who made amazing contributions to society, but who would have been considered "inferior" by eugenicists.

The Force, as portrayed in the original movies, was more akin to having faith, believing in the Force, rather than being genetically predisposed to "Force bugs" that make you all-powerful. The original concept is much more elegant and fanciful and fits in perfectly with the space opera theme of the Star Wars universe.

I've always been a fan of hard science fiction and grew up reading the greats, like Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, Ben Bova, Larry Niven, and a bunch of others. I'm also an incredibly analytical and rational person. However, that's not what Star Wars is all about, and if you try reducing it to hard science, not only does it become ridiculous, but it also loses its soul.

I love the midi-chlorian concept

Pretty close to mithocondrias, but, the explanation its pretty vague to have a really plural interpretation.

Sciencie or mysticism?

Maybe sciencie is just explaying the "mysticism" of Star Wars. It's like the budhism, one of the most extended non-theist religions, that is pretty close to science (or at least don't ban it as other ones).

There was a neuro-biologist and budhist that tried to explain thanks to science some of the "mytical" scenes of the budhist story.

Jedi are a mixture with Budhism, Taoism and a few more, so, I have no problems with the midi-chlorians, because in its interpretation, spirituality and science people can be "satisfied".

Off course, I would like more info about its origins and some extra explanations

PS: Poor Jar Jar XD