(I didn't post this on the F&D Beta boards, since the topic seemed to pertain to all SW, but I might be wrong.)

There seems to be a tacit consensus that midi-chlorians were a huge mistake on the part of George Lucas, usually listed next to Jar Jar Binks in a list of stuff the prequels ruined.

I'll admit that I grew up on the prequels, and despite the fact even my young artistically-challenged self could see the bad acting and lackluster rythm of the likes of AotC, I can't resist enjoying them. In fact, looking back, the senate/political scenes and Padme arcs are something I prefer in the prequels to the scarcity of scenes showing the Rebel Alliance command.

But I disgress. Since I grew up always "aware" of midi-chlorians, I never felt their introduction to canon was removing the magic / mystique / mystery / spirituality of the Force. Maybe it's just me, but the fact that living creatures similar to mitochondria played a "relay" role between the Force and living beings never seemed out of place. On the contrary I found the "whole living beings within living beings" to be quite full of taste.

I've read in a few places that midi-chlorians brought too much of a Hard SF feel to the more romantic/fantasy Star Wars world. In my experience of old pulp SF novels, the lines were not always so clear cut, and technobabble was often a mean to raise philosophical/ethical questions, advance a particular storyline or stimulate the imagination; not necessarily have a "science talk".

I'm curious to hear other people's take on the matter, especially of those who have either downplayed their role in their games, eliminated them completely, or else. Unless I'm mistaken, there is (almost?) no mention of them in the FFG books, which can be understandable in the context of the Galactic Civil War.

because it quantifies it, and fundamentally changd it.it took away its mystical aura.

compare the differences.

its a mystical feild. it surrounds us. penetrates us. binds us together.

its a microscopic organism that lives in your blood.

it trivialities it, almost.

because it quantifies it, and fundamentally changd it.it took away its mystical aura.

compare the differences.

its a mystical feild. it surrounds us. penetrates us. binds us together.

its a microscopic organism that lives in your blood.

it trivialities it, almost.

See this here is the quintessential misunderstanding. Midichlorians are not, never were, THE Force. They are purely and simply the method by which living beings can connect to it. The Force itself is as mysterious and mystical as ever. In the early drafts of the OT Lucas wrote about "something different in the blood" of the Jedi, which explains how the Force is passed down family lines, he just didn't name it back in the 70's.

Imagine radio or tv waves. They're out there "surrounding us and penetrating us" all the time. But without the proper receiving equipment we are oblivious to them, and the better quality equipment we have, the clearer and stronger the reception we can achieve. Radio waves are the Force, radio receivers are the Midichlorians. Nothing is reduced, de-mystified or trivialised.

Hope that helps!

not really. that's just symantics that lead to the same thing

a rose by any other name and all that.

I don't care much for it as it is far too close to something that really exists in biology, mitochondria. To me the name was idiotic, like naming a mineral "Unobtanium"...

Here are the facts... In my Game..

Midiwhateverthe-F they are don't exist period...

Im not going to let some George Lucas acid trip ruin the FORCE.

because it quantifies it, and fundamentally changd it.it took away its mystical aura.

compare the differences.

its a mystical feild. it surrounds us. penetrates us. binds us together.

its a microscopic organism that lives in your blood.

it trivialities it, almost.

This is what contributed to the stagnation and eventual fall of the Jedi order.

Over time, many, if not most Jedi started seing the force as a quantifiable entity. Seeing it as a science. Perhaps the Jedi were, to quote Thomas Dolby, blinded by science. They focused more on facts than having trust in the force. The faith in science, and possibly the repressing of emotions, prevented them from seeing things that hard facts wouldn't point to. Gut feelings or instincts are similar.

Now this is just a theory, but for me, it reconciles the prequels quantifiable definition, and the originals more mystical take.

One final example, science would say that when we die we cease to be. But allowing for the mystical, enabled a certain three Jedi to move beyond the physical.

I actually prefer the addition of midoclorians, just not a fan of having magic in scifi. If I wanted magic I'd stick with fantasy. Just like psykers in 40k piling from another dimensions energies opposed to magic in war fantasy or a virus causing a zombie disease instead of just random magic. I feel in grounds the whole thing more and makes it more believable in the setting as the whole mystical force magic always felt like lazy writing to me (given I still dislike plenty about the prequels just not that in particular).

I actually prefer the addition of midoclorians, just not a fan of having magic in scifi. If I wanted magic I'd stick with fantasy. Just like psykers in 40k piling from another dimensions energies opposed to magic in war fantasy or a virus causing a zombie disease instead of just random magic. I feel in grounds the whole thing more and makes it more believable in the setting as the whole mystical force magic always felt like lazy writing to me (given I still dislike plenty about the prequels just not that in particular).

as long as you don't like the prequels, we're cool

because it quantifies it, and fundamentally changd it.it took away its mystical aura.

compare the differences.

its a mystical feild. it surrounds us. penetrates us. binds us together.

its a microscopic organism that lives in your blood.

it trivialities it, almost.

My certain point of view:

This is what contributed to the stagnation and eventual fall of the Jedi order.

Over time, many, if not most Jedi started seing the force as a quantifiable entity. Seeing it as a science. Perhaps the Jedi were, to quote Thomas Dolby, blinded by science. They focused more on facts than having trust in the force. The faith in science, and possibly the repressing of emotions, prevented them from seeing things that hard facts wouldn't point to. Gut feelings or instincts are similar.

Now this is just a theory, but for me, it reconciles the prequels quantifiable definition, and the originals more mystical take.

One final example, science would say that when we die we cease to be. But allowing for the mystical, enabled a certain three Jedi to move beyond the physical.

Oh and forgive me for my atrocious grammar, my fingers are far to big for my phones screen haha.

I'm OK with the idea that scientific equipment can detect whether someone may be Force-Sensitive. Really the whole problem with it is that it was a concept poorly handled and unnecessary in the movies. If Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan had been introduced to Anakin via a non-Jedi doctor discovering him, and that was important to the plot somehow, then great. As it stood though, they happened upon Anakin by chance, and the fact that he had great potential could have been handled by either Jedi saying "The Force is strong with this one" or some such. The purpose of the Force, from a narrative standpoint, is that it doesn't need to be explained, and represents the unexplained wonder and mystery of the universe, as well as symbolizing several intangible concepts (break out your copy of "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" for more info).

In my games, I let the midichlorians remain a useful plot device, but retcon them as microscopic creatures attracted to people, places, and objects strongly connected to the Force, thus showing up in the bloodstream of Force-sensitive individuals.

What happens to all those little Force lifeforms living in Jedi who become force Ghosts?

What happens to all those little Force lifeforms living in Jedi who become force Ghosts?

No canon answer is given, but my guess is that since a Force ghost is pure Force energy, an individual who becomes one is inherently connected to the Force and thus does not need the midichlorians as an intermediary

Without going into a religious debate (even though I know this may spark it), I have issues with the immaculate conception of Anakin.

Midichlorians ruined the mystery/ appeal of the Jedi. Took away the whole fantasy aspect of Star Wars. The fun/awesomeness of fantasy is the mystery of "magic". So I guess Gandalf from LoTR has some strange bacteria in his blood?? I am a die-hard SW fan but Midichlorians are just plain stupid, just like Jar-Jar and Ewoks.......

Seriously though, for us old coots it just took something away. The Force "just was" it didn't need explanation, because giving it one removes the mystical magical nature of the force. The Force required faith back then. Adding midiclorians made it not faith, but simple, testable, provable, science. It's still really cool, but it removes that special something that made you feel like, if you concentrated hard enough, you could one day move something with your mind.

It's actually similar to the damage caused by Han Shooting second. When he shoots first it's a key part of his character. It establishes that he doesn't care, he's not a good guy, he'll do the best thing for him at any given moment. This theme continues through the film "I can imagine quite a bit" "I'm not in it for your revolution, I'm not in it for you, I expect to be well paid". So in the end, when he leaves, but comes back to save the day, it's a big display of how he has grown and changed as a character. When George had it changed it, he made Han a better role model for Jett, but he damaged the development of Han as a character.

Personally I have just taken the position that Midi-Chlorians are cellular markers that are simply attracted to individuals based on their strength in the force and not the source of the Force itself.

For standard game timelines the Emperor has expunged all mention of Midi-chlorians anyhow, and it was treated more as a form of Alchemy in the Old Republic than as science, so any Holocrons would likely present it from a more mystical point of view.

Even if there was no problem with the concept, it'd still be an example of what's wrong with the screenplay for Episode 1.

What do Midichlorians add to the story? Not much: They explain why Anakin's potential could be scientifically measured with a simple blood sample. That was utterly unnecessary. Qui-Gon could have just given his word that this kid had a lot of potential.

Unnecessary isn't necessarily bad. Star Wars is usually good with including enticing, unnecessary information for worldbuilding purposes. But this particular inclusion throws a wrench into the worldbuilding:

What was even the point with the test the Council does later if they already had the result of the blood test?

Why did nobody test Palpatine?

How could Luke and Leia escape the probably mandatory blood test for Midichlorians the Emperor surely mandated immediately?

If it's just a matter of Midichlorian concentration, why not enrich their concentration in every Jedi and have a master race of Chosen ones?

Especially the latter shows there are some unfortunate cultural implications. IMHO, the Jedi should not be associated with any blood-based ideology, which are invariably right-wing (whether it is aristocratic or racial suprematist or fascist).

I mean they already wear hoods, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

I would also rather the Jedi alluded to a vaguely eastern-based philosophy than to professional bikers and their blood doping scandal. Why would you risk these disturbing connotations for an arguably negligible benefit?

Without going into a religious debate (even though I know this may spark it), I have issues with the immaculate conception of Anakin.

I agree, but I thought they added an interesting element to it in the novel about Darth Plagueis. I don't know if anyone else has read that one, but I liked the idea that a Sith was experimenting with death and life and the effects of it.

I've heard before star wars is a modern day religion. this post reminds me of why. we even have sects.

I think it's possibly to argue this from an editor's point of view without adhering to a "sect".

There are so many ways this could have been done more elegantly.

If you absolutely need a scientific way to determine the Chosen One, let the blood sample check for a certain genetic marker relating to a prophecy (that's what Dune's Bene Gesserit did, and what Lucas obviously had been inspired by.)

That way, you can still build a story about the Sith experimenting with the creation of life, you could even have the virgin birth that way. There is still the issue with the right-wing ideology (but at least you could argue that's strictly a Sith thing now, since the Jedi don't have to deal in genetics but the Sith still might. (As in, they are too impatient to wait for the Chosen One genes to occur naturally.)

But at least we're rid of the issues of universal blood tests and Jedi blood doping.

I'm OK with the idea that scientific equipment can detect whether someone may be Force-Sensitive. Really the whole problem with it is that it was a concept poorly handled and unnecessary in the movies. If Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan had been introduced to Anakin via a non-Jedi doctor discovering him, and that was important to the plot somehow, then great. As it stood though, they happened upon Anakin by chance, and the fact that he had great potential could have been handled by either Jedi saying "The Force is strong with this one" or some such. The purpose of the Force, from a narrative standpoint, is that it doesn't need to be explained, and represents the unexplained wonder and mystery of the universe, as well as symbolizing several intangible concepts (break out your copy of "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" for more info).

You could even go so far as to refer to Anakin’s performance on various Jedi tests (not further described), and say that his scores were the best they’ve ever seen.

But by naming the specific mechanism by which sentient beings connect to the Force, in one fell swoop they eliminated all other possible explanations of how you could get to “The Force is strong with this one.”

They eliminated any possibility of mystery there, because we now know that it all goes through the Midchlorians, ‘nuff said.

IMO, the whole concept of midichlorians was one of the worst mistakes that GL ever did, and much worse than Jar-Jar.

I agree, but I thought they added an interesting element to it in the novel about Darth Plagueis. I don't know if anyone else has read that one, but I liked the idea that a Sith was experimenting with death and life and the effects of it.

The maxi-chlorians?

They could just have easily done that story without any reference to anything remotely related to any kind of “-chlorian”. It would probably have been a lot better, too.

The first time I saw "Phantom Menace", I was tolerating the movie, thinking that it just hadn't "gotten good" yet... up until they mentioned midichlorians. Once I heard Liam Neeson (an incredibly cool actor, totally under-utilized in the movie) reduce the Force to some germs living in your blood stream, I pretty much had enough. I remember getting actually mad as I sat in the theater, and I just stewed over it for the rest of the movie. Not that the movie ever actually "got good", mind you, so it didn't ruin anything for me.

You can botch the plot line of a movie, you can waste the talents of great actors, use others who can't act their way out of a paper bag, employ laughingly-offensive stereotypes for several characters, and even include The Most Annoying Movie Character Ever (he who must not be named), and I can be forgiving. After all, even bad Star Wars is still Star Wars, and I'll take what I can get. But... don't mess with the Force!!!

Even the name "midichlorians" is deceptive; they purposely had it sound like "midichloria" (a type of bacteria) and "mitochondria" (part of a cell) to make it sound all sciencey. I've been perfectly happy considering the Force as a mystical power, a universal binding energy, or the Star Wars universe's version of God (or all three) for the past 30-something years, and they weren't about to ruin it for me.

So... in my game, midichlorians don't exist, just like there was never a second "Highlander" movie. The concept is an abomination (much like the aforementioned non-existent second "Highlander" movie) and I'll have nothing to do with it.

At least, that's my opinion