The white 4k makes them surprisingly resistant to arc dodgers. Got behind me? Turn around. Repeat as necessary.

Well, while we're here, figure i should add this:

I've updated Delta + Delta + Soontir w/Wave 6 tech

Soontir (PTL, Royal Guard Tie, Stealth, Thrusters)

Delta Defender (Flechette)

Delta Defender (Flechette)

[Total: 99]

This little list has impressed me all over again. It is particularly effective against the new aggressor menance, given that a single stress makes it impossible for non-defender ships to joust with the deltas and that Defenders are basically miniature aggressors in terms of statline. While I miss ion, Flechette cannons let me fit in autothrusters on Soontir and give the Defenders license to hamper large ships enough to bring guns to bear on it. The basic defender has repeatedly proven to be a very solid little ship, and the added utility of inflicting stress has proven to be very valuable.

I've been running something similar:

Carnor Jax w/Autohrusters, RG Title, Stealth Device, PTL

2 x Deltas w/Ion Cannons

It might just be the match-ups I've had but Stealth Device continues to let me down. I think I would have been better off running with a hull upgrade in the three games I've had with it. It was fun to play but I think Carnor might have some issues with Aggressors. I found that they can cover so much ground so quickly it is hard to stay at range one consistently.

I was really impressed with how well the Ion Cannons worked even when they weren't Ionizing anything. I'll probably give the Flechette Cannons a shot. I'm also considering dropping the Stealth Device and upgrading to Mangler Cannons.

1000

The Defender can pack a huge gun, and can white Kturn. Vessery when linked with the advance X-1 is brilliant as the X-1 isn't discarding the lock, but spotting for the defender. I prefer the heavy laser to the mangler, after initial tests with mangler.

That white Kturn is brilliant and even though it's a known thing, people still just don't expect it.

defenders crap all over the aggressor in terms of movement I've watched my friend Gary who's never used imps take on duel ig88s with defenders and a Firespray and lose only shields as he tore them apparent.

Had to bite my lip a few times as he used them wrong missing a few shots as a result but he won 100-0.

Honestly not seeing duel aggressors as that big of a threat.

defenders crap all over the aggressor in terms of movement I've watched my friend Gary who's never used imps take on duel ig88s with defenders and a Firespray and lose only shields as he tore them apparent.

Had to bite my lip a few times as he used them wrong missing a few shots as a result but he won 100-0.

Honestly not seeing duel aggressors as that big of a threat.

do keep in mind that not every ship is as awesome as a Tie Defender

more seriously, the little buggers just have a je ne cest quoi that makes them unduely effective against Aggressors. The IGs are stupid scary buggers that make certain ships seem utterly useless, mainly the slower rebels & scum. For all my efforts, Z-95s and Y-wings have proven utterly useless and while Stress Wing Luke has game, he doesn't have the mobility necessary to dodge nor does he really like taking 3-4 dice to the face. B-wings also have trouble, but you can make them work with slow rolling and fear of the pointed finger (Tacticians).

Over on the imperial side, I know as a fact that not even Soontir relishes the thought of modified "gunner" cannons and in the latest local store champ the double aggressor finalist devoured a whisper + chiraneau by using both wide-arcs to corner and mulch the phantom A.S.A.P before I faced him in the finals and managed to win by the skin of a single B-wing

But Defenders? They just strike this perfect combination of health, green dice, speed, 4k, cannon (flechette --> stress --> chortle at aggressor), and 3 red dice that just make the match-up vastly more simple to navigate.

So it's a fun time to play X-wing, with no defined scum meta and a lot of people willing to try anything to see what works (and doesn't).

Much like this thread, I have recently come back from the dead (not playing x-wing online or off, for various personal reasons) and it's a great time to get back in the swing of things!

Like I posted in the defender thread in the Squads forums last week, I gave the following list a try over the weekend:

Rexlar Brath

Col. Vessery + VI

OGP+ADv Sensors+Fleet Officer

Pretty straight forward synergy with the OGP sensoring the FO to give both Defender's focus, freeing them up to TL, BR, or Evade. Brath can lock Vess' target and VI lets Vess shoot while the lock is still there. Brath could potentially get to flip his damage, with double focus.... yeah it could happen; but it never seems to work out. In the late game the shuttle can lock for Vess' new targets when it's out of position.

I played vs:

Serissu+hsi+mangler+ei

Palob+opportunist+Blaster Turret+Moldy crow+k4

N'dru+lone wolf

Cartel spacer

I have this squad slightly messed up, but I can't remember exactly what he had...

It was my first time flying it, but it won. Palob went down early to concentrated Defender fire. Since his focus stealing kind of messed up my squad's synergy, he had to go. The shuttle got shredded by N'dru, but he rammed the back of it when it full stopped with one health and made it two more turns. i ended up losing Vess, but mainly because I made the wrong move with Brath and foiled Ves' k-turn leaving his rear open to Serissu when he had only one health left.

It probably isn't seriously competitive, but it is really fun to play with both named Defenders in a squad built for their abilities. It isn't quite the "Rube Goldberg" setups I had come up with before to get Vess' ability to trigger. Actually this squad is pretty simple and elegant in how it works, but entirely predictable as a result. It really wants to joust, but might not be able to do enough damage on the front end to go the distance, and I am curious to see how it deals with arc dodgers.... not well I suspect. It is pretty dependent on the Defenders being able to absorb damage that would normally kill two ships.

I just can't for the life of me justify sinking more than a few additional points into a Defender, especially a named one. An HLC is awesome, but makes them very expensive. Manglers are kind of a waste on a 3 attack ship, I like the ion... but there is lost damage potential. Even 2 or 3 point EPT's seem to stack up the cost of these guys to unacceptable levels.

But Defenders? They just strike this perfect combination of health, green dice, speed, 4k, cannon (flechette --> stress --> chortle at aggressor), and 3 red dice that just make the match-up vastly more simple to navigate.

I think that's the real key to their quality for people that like them. That and the fact that the dial that is not really understood by anyone who's not already a big Defender fan, because it's not like much of anything that's popular. I'll also add small base size. In my testing against Aggressors (after I beat one in a Store Championship with my Defender list, then lost to the same player in the finals), the small base size is all the difference. Aggressor's are always zooming somewhere, and that somewhere is usually not near a cluster of asteroids. Defenders can occupy space near asteroids with much less risk of overlap, using the rocks for both area denial and added green dice. It's like one of those fish that lives in a sea anemone, except with an HLC (or other cannon).

But Defenders? They just strike this perfect combination of health, green dice, speed, 4k, cannon (flechette --> stress --> chortle at aggressor), and 3 red dice that just make the match-up vastly more simple to navigate.

I think that's the real key to their quality for people that like them. That and the fact that the dial that is not really understood by anyone who's not already a big Defender fan, because it's not like much of anything that's popular. I'll also add small base size. In my testing against Aggressors (after I beat one in a Store Championship with my Defender list, then lost to the same player in the finals), the small base size is all the difference. Aggressor's are always zooming somewhere, and that somewhere is usually not near a cluster of asteroids. Defenders can occupy space near asteroids with much less risk of overlap, using the rocks for both area denial and added green dice. It's like one of those fish that lives in a sea anemone, except with an HLC (or other cannon).

exactly that, the base size is a pretty large (heh) difference

The defender dial's still a bit of a sore point for me, but you learn to work around it. You learn to appreciate the sweeping turns and barrel rolling after 4ks and being able to 4k after being forced into a non-3 turn. It compensates for itself in a lot of ways.

Barrel roll is especially huge (as is aggressors not having it) because it lets you modify your approach in order to mitigate the lack of short, hard turns (also essential because PS 1 is almost always hitting the table first so you'll need to adapt your approach). While they're not as zany as b-wings (whom I feel I can barrel-roll till kingdom come with, because that 1 agility won't be putting much work in anyway) having that option makes the dial many times less restrictive than it initially seems.

But Defenders? They just strike this perfect combination of health, green dice, speed, 4k, cannon (flechette --> stress --> chortle at aggressor), and 3 red dice that just make the match-up vastly more simple to navigate.

I think that's the real key to their quality for people that like them. That and the fact that the dial that is not really understood by anyone who's not already a big Defender fan, because it's not like much of anything that's popular. I'll also add small base size. In my testing against Aggressors (after I beat one in a Store Championship with my Defender list, then lost to the same player in the finals), the small base size is all the difference. Aggressor's are always zooming somewhere, and that somewhere is usually not near a cluster of asteroids. Defenders can occupy space near asteroids with much less risk of overlap, using the rocks for both area denial and added green dice. It's like one of those fish that lives in a sea anemone, except with an HLC (or other cannon).

Did you just compare the tie defender to a clownfish?

Now I want to see an orange, black, and white defender

I think the issues with the Tie Defender are only pronounced in competitive play: An excellent T/D player will struggle against an excellent Whisper or an excellent Firespray player. Here are some examples of what happened to me at the store championships last Saturday:

End game my Rexler (HLC+VI+Shield Upgrade+Lone Wolf)

vs.

Whisper+VI+Gunner+fire control system: costs way less than a Tie Defender, has a decloak movement, regular movement, action, 4-5 attack dice fire that earns a focus (remember gunner) and a target lock and re-cloaks. That is 5 actions per turn!!! Compare 5 actions per turn, for less points, than the 1 action you can get out of Rexler (for the record i still won that fight but I was down to 1 health)

vs. Kath and/or Bobba Fet with engine upgrade, security droid, inertial dampeners, engine upgrade, VI/Push (both good).

There are so many choices that a player can make flying these ships, again for the same cost as an upgraded T/D. A very good player can get extremely creative with a loaded firespray!

In regular, casual games, Tie Defenders are perfectly fine. In competitive games, they lack flexibility and creativity. There are only so many clever maneuvers you can pull with a Tie Defender over 3-4 turns : (

Thursday I am buying IG's and I will see how they compare.

But Defenders? They just strike this perfect combination of health, green dice, speed, 4k, cannon (flechette --> stress --> chortle at aggressor), and 3 red dice that just make the match-up vastly more simple to navigate.

I think that's the real key to their quality for people that like them. That and the fact that the dial that is not really understood by anyone who's not already a big Defender fan, because it's not like much of anything that's popular. I'll also add small base size. In my testing against Aggressors (after I beat one in a Store Championship with my Defender list, then lost to the same player in the finals), the small base size is all the difference. Aggressor's are always zooming somewhere, and that somewhere is usually not near a cluster of asteroids. Defenders can occupy space near asteroids with much less risk of overlap, using the rocks for both area denial and added green dice. It's like one of those fish that lives in a sea anemone, except with an HLC (or other cannon).

Did you just compare the tie defender to a clownfish?

Now I want to see an orange, black, and white defender

Indeed I did.

I wouldn't say they're not competitive. Far from it, defenders kick all sorts of ass and their lack of presence in the competitive meta means many just don't know how to counter them.

Now granted, they suffer against phantoms because so does everything else, but the match-ups they've had with literally every other ship in the game has been thus far favorable. Like I said, the Aggressors have suffered heavily against them and that's including the list flown by the scariest player in the local area (1st place in the last four casual tournies and the store champion previous to the championship last week).

I can tell everyone for a fact that, kind of like Aggressors, slow rebel ships just don't like them. The white 4k may be predictable, but certain ships are simply too slow to react to it and it is a massive skew in jousts because 1.) it keeps the defender's action and b.) it can be repeated ad nausea without wingman etc. Toss on an ion cannon and it's not even funny how much Defenders run right over small rebel ships (well, okay, it's pretty funny )

Defenders also pack a deceptively sturdy stat-line. Remember how juggler calculated Aggressors to be, at the base level, the most durable ship in the game? Defenders are basically aggressors -1 shield and -1 hull. Unless your green dice crap out consistently, they'll stick around for a surprising amount of time.

Imo, Defenders have incredible potential, it's just limited by a rather forbidding point cost. The Delta, Delta, Soontir list has been incredibly effective for me but it's also about the only place I'd put two of them. You can exchange Soontir for Jax etc. but there aren't a lot of imperial aces that fit comfortably in the 36 point window left by two flchette defenders until maybe the raider ***** the store front.

I have to say, though, that out of all the imperial generic pilots the Delta Squadron Pilot has quickly become my favorite (followed by Bounty Hunters and ye old "reliable" Academy Pilot). The strange and not great dial belies a very flexible ship, it just can't handle tight turns very well

I would like to thank the TIE Defender defenders for helping to justify the $15 price tag on the Predator card. I've been needing another one but I wasn't so sure about the free ship it came with. Now I really want to try some double trip + ________ lists. Although now I've got yet another ship vying for my next TIE purchase. :/

Imo, Defenders have incredible potential, it's just limited by a rather forbidding point cost. The Delta, Delta, Soontir list has been incredibly effective for me but it's also about the only place I'd put two of them. You can exchange Soontir for Jax etc. but there aren't a lot of imperial aces that fit comfortably in the 36 point window left by two flchette defenders until maybe the raider ***** the store front.

I have to say, though, that out of all the imperial generic pilots the Delta Squadron Pilot has quickly become my favorite (followed by Bounty Hunters and ye old "reliable" Academy Pilot). The strange and not great dial belies a very flexible ship, it just can't handle tight turns very well

36 points:

3 Academy Pilots?

2 Alpha Squadron Pilots?

2 Bombers w/ Seismic (that could be pretty fun)?

Bounty Hunter w/ RecSpec?

Souped up Shuttle (makes for some potentially interesting control list possibilities)?

Non-named Phantom?

It's weird how few front-line Imperial fighter types actually occupy that point range. It's all weird stuff or multiple ships.

Imo, Defenders have incredible potential, it's just limited by a rather forbidding point cost. The Delta, Delta, Soontir list has been incredibly effective for me but it's also about the only place I'd put two of them. You can exchange Soontir for Jax etc. but there aren't a lot of imperial aces that fit comfortably in the 36 point window left by two flchette defenders until maybe the raider ***** the store front.

I have to say, though, that out of all the imperial generic pilots the Delta Squadron Pilot has quickly become my favorite (followed by Bounty Hunters and ye old "reliable" Academy Pilot). The strange and not great dial belies a very flexible ship, it just can't handle tight turns very well

36 points:

3 Academy Pilots?

2 Alpha Squadron Pilots?

2 Bombers w/ Seismic (that could be pretty fun)?

Bounty Hunter w/ RecSpec?

Souped up Shuttle (makes for some potentially interesting control list possibilities)?

Non-named Phantom?

It's weird how few front-line Imperial fighter types actually occupy that point range. It's all weird stuff or multiple ships.

Aye, the empire has lacked a straight B-wing equivalent for a while now (nope, not the shuttle, whole different animal) which is probably for the best because it preserves the differences between the factions and makes them unique.

Defenders actually kind of remind of B-wings, insofar as B-wings learned to go super-fast and dodge like bastards, in that they're surprisingly flexible despite their dial and surprisingly reliable. THey're not really front-line (dat cost) but the way they fly lets them uniquely cope with jousting pressures so it all evens out in the end.

Now, personally the most bang for my buck has obviously been Soontir (wouldn't else him, otherwise). Having a high PS pilot to cover the Defender's stiff maneuverability and to benefit from their blocks has been real nice.

It's been so nice, in fact, that I gotta down more crazy pills before I start exploring other options (Echo, V.I, Int, ACD = 36, Vader, V.I, ATC, Engine = 35)

A few points I'd like to make in defense of defenders as well:

1) Their predictability can be a strong suit. Yes for the reasons already discussed, that you can take people by surprise because of it (I've only read about 6/11 pages, but that was well hashed out), but also because sometimes everyone at the table knows a white 4k is the best move and your opponent still can't do anything to stop it. When you get that situation, you just do a delicious 4k and blast them to smithereens.

2) Their (slow) turns are red, which means most of the time people will assume you don't want to perform them, so taking a hard 1 can really catch people offguard as usually one doesn't want to stress a ship with so few greens.

3) While annoying, they really don't care about stress. Yes, their only greens are straight forward, and yes the loss of action hurts, but they lose none of their primary engagement pattern (strafing with banks or straight forward and back), no matter how much stress they have, so they don't actually mind just sitting with the stress and laying down heavy fire.

4) The 4K makes their joust insane. Where B wing k then go forward then K again, a Defender can K turn 3 times around the B wing. They also have 3 defense dice and 3 shields, meaning when it comes down to it, they can just bear down and go guns blazing into a foe and come out on top surprisingly often.

I think the issue is people are scared of putting too many points onto them because they're seen as more fragile than the Decimator (not remotely true IMO), and less good at offense when compared to the Phantom (not as maneuverable, but tankier when stressed/at a lower pilot skill, and HLC does wonders for offense).

The defenders are the workhorse of the Empire fleet, and I think if more people practiced flying them they'd see just how powerful they are.

A few points I'd like to make in defense of defenders as well:

1) Their predictability can be a strong suit. Yes for the reasons already discussed, that you can take people by surprise because of it (I've only read about 6/11 pages, but that was well hashed out), but also because sometimes everyone at the table knows a white 4k is the best move and your opponent still can't do anything to stop it. When you get that situation, you just do a delicious 4k and blast them to smithereens.

2) Their (slow) turns are red, which means most of the time people will assume you don't want to perform them, so taking a hard 1 can really catch people offguard as usually one doesn't want to stress a ship with so few greens.

3) While annoying, they really don't care about stress. Yes, their only greens are straight forward, and yes the loss of action hurts, but they lose none of their primary engagement pattern (strafing with banks or straight forward and back), no matter how much stress they have, so they don't actually mind just sitting with the stress and laying down heavy fire.

4) The 4K makes their joust insane. Where B wing k then go forward then K again, a Defender can K turn 3 times around the B wing. They also have 3 defense dice and 3 shields, meaning when it comes down to it, they can just bear down and go guns blazing into a foe and come out on top surprisingly often.

I think the issue is people are scared of putting too many points onto them because they're seen as more fragile than the Decimator (not remotely true IMO), and less good at offense when compared to the Phantom (not as maneuverable, but tankier when stressed/at a lower pilot skill, and HLC does wonders for offense).

The defenders are the workhorse of the Empire fleet, and I think if more people practiced flying them they'd see just how powerful they are.

Defender vs keyan farlander w/hlc? Keyan destroys all defenders except Rex. For the same points as an onyx squad vanilla defender you get a bwing with ps 7 and free k turns/focus who will be shooting before your defender. Ok so you take the 32 point defender and Keyan still shoots before you. Ok you take Vessery for 35 points and Keyan still shoots before you and now he can tack on a hlc giving him 4 shots at all ranges for just a point more than vessery. Hope those green dice hold up for those defenders.

I love the defender, and started with it when I started playing a few months ago. It did not go well, probably due to my lack of experience than any weakness of the defender. I have since learned much and am interested in trying them again with some of the new stuff. I was thinking of the following list:

100 pts

Delta Squadron x2

Flechette cannon

Shield upgrade

Royal Guard pilot

Royal guard tie

VI

Autothruster

Stealth Device

My question is should I replace the shield upgrade with an engine upgrade (would have to borrow them)? And I like the VI on this, as a PS8 is nice, but is PTL that much better at a PS 6? Or should I look at Lone Wolf? PTL or LW could be made to fit by downgrading the SUs to HUs. Thoughts?

Defender vs keyan farlander w/hlc? Keyan destroys all defenders except Rex. For the same points as an onyx squad vanilla defender you get a bwing with ps 7 and free k turns/focus who will be shooting before your defender. Ok so you take the 32 point defender and Keyan still shoots before you. Ok you take Vessery for 35 points and Keyan still shoots before you and now he can tack on a hlc giving him 4 shots at all ranges for just a point more than vessery. Hope those green dice hold up for those defenders.

Let's do some math.

I'm going to be pitting Keyan + HLC (36 points) vs. an Onyx Defender (30 points).

Assumptions:

Focus/Stress is always taken, and always spent on offense.

The ships are dueling while somehow stuck in the state listed at the range listed and just shooting each other.

Range 3, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 10.6 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 7.11 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 2 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.92 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 3, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 5.33 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.27 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 3.05 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

If we adjust these numbers so that Keyan does not have HLC:

R3/S: Keyan 10.67 turns, Defender 8 turns

R2/S: Keyan 7.11 turns, Defender 5.33 turns

R1/S: Keyan 4.29 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

R3/F: Keyan 5.33 turns, Defender 8 turns

R2/F: Keyan 4.27 turns, Defender 5.33 turns

R1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we adjust these numbers so that both have HLC:

R3/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

R2/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

R1/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

R3/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

R2/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

R1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we pit a Blue with HLC (29 points) vs. an Onyx:

R3/S: Blue 10.67 turns, Defender 6.86 turns

R2/S: Blue 7.11 turns, Defender 6.86 turns

R1/S: Blue 4.92 turns, Defender 6.86 turns

R3/F: Blue 5.33 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

R2/F: Blue 4.27 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

R1/F: Blue 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

So, that's a whole lot of numbers. What we can summarize from this is as follows:

-Keyan's biggest strength is easily that he never doesn't focus offensively. This has a huge impact on DPS.

-If a 30 point Onyx Defender can focus each turn, and Keyan does what he does (always has an offensive focus), the defender wins at every range assuming they're shooting the same die value (both either having or not having HLC).

-A blue pilot with HLC will beat a defender if they both focus every time at ranges 2-3 (surprise!), but if the blue is stressed and the defender isn't (White K vs. Red K), the Defender will easily win at each range.

I'm not certain your point is made, and after having done a lot of math on the subject, I think that Defenders still come out on top. They key is keep them stress free and always take a focus.

Defender vs keyan farlander w/hlc? Keyan destroys all defenders except Rex. For the same points as an onyx squad vanilla defender you get a bwing with ps 7 and free k turns/focus who will be shooting before your defender. Ok so you take the 32 point defender and Keyan still shoots before you. Ok you take Vessery for 35 points and Keyan still shoots before you and now he can tack on a hlc giving him 4 shots at all ranges for just a point more than vessery. Hope those green dice hold up for those defenders.

Let's do some math.

I'm going to be pitting Keyan + HLC (36 points) vs. an Onyx Defender (30 points).

Assumptions:

Focus/Stress is always taken, and always spent on offense.

The ships are dueling while somehow stuck in the state listed at the range listed and just shooting each other.

Range 3, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 10.6 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 7.11 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 2 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.92 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 3, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 5.33 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.27 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 3.05 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

If we adjust these numbers so that Keyan does not have HLC:R3/S: Keyan 10.67 turns, Defender 8 turnsR2/S: Keyan 7.11 turns, Defender 5.33 turnsR1/S: Keyan 4.29 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR3/F: Keyan 5.33 turns, Defender 8 turnsR2/F: Keyan 4.27 turns, Defender 5.33 turnsR1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we adjust these numbers so that both have HLC:

R3/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR3/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we pit a Blue with HLC (29 points) vs. an Onyx:

R3/S: Blue 10.67 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR2/S: Blue 7.11 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR1/S: Blue 4.92 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR3/F: Blue 5.33 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/F: Blue 4.27 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/F: Blue 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

So, that's a whole lot of numbers. What we can summarize from this is as follows:

-Keyan's biggest strength is easily that he never doesn't focus offensively. This has a huge impact on DPS.

-If a 30 point Onyx Defender can focus each turn, and Keyan does what he does (always has an offensive focus), the defender wins at every range assuming they're shooting the same die value (both either having or not having HLC).

-A blue pilot with HLC will beat a defender if they both focus every time at ranges 2-3 (surprise!), but if the blue is stressed and the defender isn't (White K vs. Red K), the Defender will easily win at each range.

I'm not certain your point is made, and after having done a lot of math on the subject, I think that Defenders still come out on top. They key is keep them stress free and always take a focus.

That's good math except that if your giving the onyx a hlc that puts him at 39 points and Keyan still comes out 3 points cheaper and shoots first. To be equal points as the onyx well give him adv sensors and now Keyan gets a target lock. I wonder how that changes things?

That's good math except that if your giving the onyx a hlc that puts him at 39 points and Keyan still comes out 3 points cheaper and shoots first. To be equal points as the onyx well give him adv sensors and now Keyan gets a target lock. I wonder how that changes things?

Oh that's because I'm dumb and the low cost defender is the Delta. Every place I said Onyx, pretend I wasn't dumb. Then the HLC comparison is 36 vs. 37.

Defender vs keyan farlander w/hlc? Keyan destroys all defenders except Rex. For the same points as an onyx squad vanilla defender you get a bwing with ps 7 and free k turns/focus who will be shooting before your defender. Ok so you take the 32 point defender and Keyan still shoots before you. Ok you take Vessery for 35 points and Keyan still shoots before you and now he can tack on a hlc giving him 4 shots at all ranges for just a point more than vessery. Hope those green dice hold up for those defenders.

Let's do some math.

I'm going to be pitting Keyan + HLC (36 points) vs. an Onyx Defender (30 points).

Assumptions:

Focus/Stress is always taken, and always spent on offense.

The ships are dueling while somehow stuck in the state listed at the range listed and just shooting each other.

Range 3, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 10.6 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 7.11 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 2 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.92 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 3, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 5.33 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.27 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 3.05 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

If we adjust these numbers so that Keyan does not have HLC:R3/S: Keyan 10.67 turns, Defender 8 turnsR2/S: Keyan 7.11 turns, Defender 5.33 turnsR1/S: Keyan 4.29 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR3/F: Keyan 5.33 turns, Defender 8 turnsR2/F: Keyan 4.27 turns, Defender 5.33 turnsR1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we adjust these numbers so that both have HLC:

R3/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR3/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we pit a Blue with HLC (29 points) vs. an Onyx:

R3/S: Blue 10.67 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR2/S: Blue 7.11 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR1/S: Blue 4.92 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR3/F: Blue 5.33 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/F: Blue 4.27 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/F: Blue 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

So, that's a whole lot of numbers. What we can summarize from this is as follows:

-Keyan's biggest strength is easily that he never doesn't focus offensively. This has a huge impact on DPS.

-If a 30 point Onyx Defender can focus each turn, and Keyan does what he does (always has an offensive focus), the defender wins at every range assuming they're shooting the same die value (both either having or not having HLC).

-A blue pilot with HLC will beat a defender if they both focus every time at ranges 2-3 (surprise!), but if the blue is stressed and the defender isn't (White K vs. Red K), the Defender will easily win at each range.

I'm not certain your point is made, and after having done a lot of math on the subject, I think that Defenders still come out on top. They key is keep them stress free and always take a focus.

Looks to me the Defender gets torn up at every range but range 1. And against a B wing with a barrel roll that is moving after you that won't be happening often.

How is the Defender coming out on top? Can you elaborate?

Defender vs keyan farlander w/hlc? Keyan destroys all defenders except Rex. For the same points as an onyx squad vanilla defender you get a bwing with ps 7 and free k turns/focus who will be shooting before your defender. Ok so you take the 32 point defender and Keyan still shoots before you. Ok you take Vessery for 35 points and Keyan still shoots before you and now he can tack on a hlc giving him 4 shots at all ranges for just a point more than vessery. Hope those green dice hold up for those defenders.

Let's do some math.

I'm going to be pitting Keyan + HLC (36 points) vs. an Onyx Defender (30 points).

Assumptions:

Focus/Stress is always taken, and always spent on offense.

The ships are dueling while somehow stuck in the state listed at the range listed and just shooting each other.

Range 3, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 10.6 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 7.11 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 2 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.92 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 3, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 5.33 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.27 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 3.05 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

If we adjust these numbers so that Keyan does not have HLC:R3/S: Keyan 10.67 turns, Defender 8 turnsR2/S: Keyan 7.11 turns, Defender 5.33 turnsR1/S: Keyan 4.29 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR3/F: Keyan 5.33 turns, Defender 8 turnsR2/F: Keyan 4.27 turns, Defender 5.33 turnsR1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we adjust these numbers so that both have HLC:

R3/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR3/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we pit a Blue with HLC (29 points) vs. an Onyx:

R3/S: Blue 10.67 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR2/S: Blue 7.11 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR1/S: Blue 4.92 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR3/F: Blue 5.33 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/F: Blue 4.27 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/F: Blue 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

So, that's a whole lot of numbers. What we can summarize from this is as follows:

-Keyan's biggest strength is easily that he never doesn't focus offensively. This has a huge impact on DPS.

-If a 30 point Onyx Defender can focus each turn, and Keyan does what he does (always has an offensive focus), the defender wins at every range assuming they're shooting the same die value (both either having or not having HLC).

-A blue pilot with HLC will beat a defender if they both focus every time at ranges 2-3 (surprise!), but if the blue is stressed and the defender isn't (White K vs. Red K), the Defender will easily win at each range.

I'm not certain your point is made, and after having done a lot of math on the subject, I think that Defenders still come out on top. They key is keep them stress free and always take a focus.

Looks to me the Defender gets torn up at every range but range 1. And against a B wing with a barrel roll that is moving after you that won't be happening often.

How is the Defender coming out on top? Can you elaborate?

Ya I was actually wondering the same. Keyan has the better mobility and all he has to do is stay at range 2-3 to come out on top.

I think my first comparison might be misleading. That one is comparing Keyan who has hlc to a vanilla delta defender. That's not a fair comparison as it turns out +6 points in favour of Keyan turns out pretty good for him.

The comparison below that is where the defender shines. If they're both stressed, yes Keyan wins, but that's sort of the point of his ability. Assuming the defender gets to focus, keyan loses at all ranges.

This all seems misleading. Who is running Keyan without an ept or sensor slot? In particular ptl and advanced sensors.