I remember when it released, there were a lot of heated arguments regarding whether or not it was a disappointment and/or overpriced. A lot of people contended that it was simply misunderstood and we'd see it's potential unfold over time. Here we are ~7 months later and we're still having this conversation.

Part of my frustration personally is that the arguments started well before its release, and before anyone but playtesters had it on the table.

1. The pilot abilities are still disappointing. They are, indisputably, inflexible.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Vessery requires you to build a list around him (note: his pilot ability seems far better suited for Rebels)...

A quick question for you: how many Imperial ships are there without target lock in their action bar?

...and Rex, PS8 mind you, benefits from shooting last.

No, he benefits from shooting at things without shields. You can meet that condition by having him shoot late in the round, but you can also accomplish it by simply being patient.

2. It still sucks at clearing stress and has stress-inducing turns... I think FFG really overcompensated for the white k-turn here.

That's pretty clear, at this point. I think it could be 1-2 points less expensive, or (very preferably) have white turns where it now has red. I would also have liked to see the generic Defenders at PS2 and PS4+EPT or even PS3/PS5+EPT, but obviously that ship sailed a long time ago.

A PS2 Tempest Pilot with Accuracy Corrector is a whopping 9 points cheaper than a PS1 Defender. I think the main question really is whether or not you need a small-base cannon ship in your list. I'm not convinced that anybody would choose it primarily for its movement dial and one more hull.

The TIE Advanced has a weird dial (no 1-turn or 1-straight option, only one K-turn at only moderate speed, and very predictable while stressed), and actually isn't a lot better at turning than the Defender (the 2-turn is white instead of red, but the Defender's access to a 1-turn is a big deal in a knife fight). And the Defender has the white K-turn, of course.

It's also true that neither Accuracy Corrector nor Advanced Targeting Computer is quite the equivalent of a native 3 Attack. Those upgrades are more like a half-step between 2 Attack and 3 Attack.

So when you jump up from Tempest Squadron + AC to Delta Squadron, you get an additional shield (making it typically survive 1-2 additional attacks), a dial that's at least no worse, and at least half a step in attack. It's probably not worth 9 points, but it's worth a fair bit. The closest comparison is actually a Firespray, which features better upgrade slots (crew!) and better durability, but even with the auxiliary arc it has to tote around a Large base with corresponding large blind spots and an allergy to asteroids.

It's not a terribly user-friendly ship, and I don't know that it's truly competitive at a high level (particularly the generics), but it does have upsides.

Hopefully it gets a fix like the TIE Advanced or A wing. Its stat line is worth about 23 points. It costs 30 points. It almost needs a turret at that price differential to be cost effective, forget the white K turn.

Note: I am not suggesting a turret for it, just using that extreme example as an actual numerical example of how bad it is, or rather how over costed the white K turn is.

Its not new news. I have predicted it was overcosted the day it was revealed, even before the dial was spoiled. My numbers and methods are more refined now than they were then. The Defender is at least 3 points higher than it should be.

And the PS3 is very sad without an EPT.

The Defender has a good stat-line but it's also predictable. Some say the 4-White K-turn is over-valued and this might be the case. Really it's the 1-2 turns being red that punish this ship more than anything else I think, that and the cost since you can't give it more upgrades.

Heh, and compared to an Advanced Sensor B-Wing it has less resiliency and more reliance on the evade dice. With Murphy's law in play, expect your TIE Defender to die first.

AGI3 vs AGI 1 makes a huge difference, particularly against the Attack 2 filler that's out there. B-wings go down quick because they have 1 AGI and they can't get out of the way very well (they turn well, but they don't displace). Defenders have a lot of green dice, 75% of the HP that B-wings have, and they can move. It takes work to kill a Defender.

Hopefully it gets a fix like the TIE Advanced or A wing. Its stat line is worth about 23 points. It costs 30 points. It almost needs a turret at that price differential to be cost effective, forget the white K turn.

Note: I am not suggesting a turret for it, just using that extreme example as an actual numerical example of how bad it is, or rather how over costed the white K turn is.

Its not new news. I have predicted it was overcosted the day it was revealed, even before the dial was spoiled.

I don't want to get into the details of my issues with your model, but I think (or hope, rather) we can agree that where the TIE defender falls a bit behind something like the B-wing is not its raw stat line (where your model suggests the defender's 23 is a near match for the B-wing's 22-ish, after adjusting for PS) but the B-wing's excellent upgrade suite and very useful dial options, compared to the TIE defender's short upgrade bar and difficulty turning.

In context, I think its problem is that as long as boom-and-zoom is appropriate it's great. But every match I've ever seen involves at least one knife fight, and the TIE defender typically can't do much there except run away and come back around for another pass.

Or, to put it another way, if the 2-turn and 1-turn were white it would be worth every point of that 30 and maybe a little more.

It takes work to kill a Defender.

Without access to evade action, and their natural inability to stack 2+ actions in a round due to extreme vulnerability to stress... you'd be surprised how quickly defenders fall.

The only true "defense" the "defender" has (oh, the irony!) is... a mere focus token per turn. 3 green dice without any mods can be considered, at best, slightly safer than russian roulette. And if he uses the token for defense, its attacks become... let's say... lacking.

Only Vessery has a decent chance of 'defending' and inflicting pain at the same time, but the heavy investment and support he requires also take care of that.

No one uses the evade action when they can focus instead and boost both shooting and defensive rolls, while there may be times a tie fighter has no shot and is taking fire that's never the case with the defender unless you've really screwed the pooch when choosing your move.

The only small ship that consistently uses the evade action is the ptl interceptor, if your using the evade action more than once a game with another ship your really doing something wrong.

So is it wrong using the evade action more than once per game with E-wings? Whisper? Decimators? Falcons? A-wings?

Corran should be using either TL or focus as he's shooting first, or boosting out of arc.

Whisper again is shooting first so you focus or barrel to get the shot and use her focus from the ability for defence.

Decimator don't have the evade action you get a token from isard, so you'll be taking TL or focus.

Since when is the falcon a small ship? I made it clear I'm talking about snub fighters in my post.

A-wings again are better off using boost to avoid arcs or focus, even TL is better than taking an evade action if you can shoot.

Playing offensively is more effective because red dice are so much stronger than green, the defender should almost never be in a position where it can't shoot something.

No one uses the evade action when they can focus instead and boost both shooting and defensive rolls, while there may be times a tie fighter has no shot and is taking fire that's never the case with the defender unless you've really screwed the pooch when choosing your move.

The only small ship that consistently uses the evade action is the ptl interceptor, if your using the evade action more than once a game with another ship your really doing something wrong.

How I don't like this line: 'you're really doing something wrong'. Kinda makes you look like an elite snob that know more than most. We all have our playstyle, some people might prefer the guarantee a Evade token give over the randomness of focus. If you really want your ship to survive, you have slightly better odds by taking an evade action. I'm personally like you and will prefer the Focus over the Evade most of the time, but I don't think taking an Evade action more than once per game is 'doing something wrong'. Just 2 days ago, I rolled 4 blank with Soontir at range 4, my focus didn't really helped while an Evade token would have. You won't always roll a focus when doing an agility roll and that's a fact.

With that said, I also don't understand how a ship suddenly needs 2 actions to survive. Every ship in this game can go down quickly, but it looks like only the Defender can't be forgiven for that. It still has 3 shield over an Interceptor, that's kinda like 3 evade token, only you have them from the start and can use them all in the same round or keep them until you need them. How many time do you turtle up with an Interceptor only to throw away a token or 2 at the end of the round because you didn't need them? 3 Agility is good and the 6 hit points are there to soak the eventual failure of the dice. The Defender can take a beating, but still, like any other ship, the best defense is not getting shot at.

It's also true that neither Accuracy Corrector nor Advanced Targeting Computer is quite the equivalent of a native 3 Attack. Those upgrades are more like a half-step between 2 Attack and 3 Attack.

ATC is actually strictly better than a native 3 attack, except under certain circumstances (Defenders with higher PS and Expert Handling).

On turn 1 (first turn your ships are in range 3 anyway) you TL and don't get to use it. Giving you 2 A + 1 Crit. This averages to 2 total hits (.5 * 2 + 1).

On turn 2 you get to focus, giving you 2A w/ focus + 1 Crit. This averages to 2.5 hits (.5 * 2 + .25*2 + 1).

Native 3 A with no modifiers = 1.5 hits. 3A with focus or TL = 2.25 hits. 3A with focus and TL = 2.8125 hits.

This means after turn 1 x1's can attack better than a native 3 A under all circumstances except a TL and focused 3A. It also means x1's can perform defensive actions and still attack reasonably well.

Vader obviously gets to skip the turn 1 limitation.

If the enemy has Expert Handling on all their ships (fairly unlikely, even after the meta adjusts to ATC), and has a higher PS than you then ATC is a waste of a point (and sucks up those 4 free points x1 gave you). If the enemy has Expert Handling and lower PS than you (or equal and initiative) then you might have to TL every turn, making 2A + ATC worse than 3A and focus/TL (by a little bit), however that does mean unless your opponents all have Vader/PtL/EI they are performing no offensive actions, so that is certainly a benefit to you.

Anyway I'd take ATC + 2A over 3A if that were the only concern (I still like TIE/In because of the 2 Turn Green)

I don't want to get into the details of my issues with your model

I'll be the first to rattle off a long laundry list of future improvements and overhauls. But to borrow an analogy:

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others tried."

Pertinent to this discussion though, the action economy is the next biggest one on the list. This will shed 3/3/x/x ships such as the Defender in a less favorable light, since, as you recently pointed out in another thread, you're less likely to have a focus available for both offense and defense if you have both high attack and agility. I.e. a Defender is forced to spend its focus to get evades to earn its durability, whereas a B-wing, or especially a VT-49, just plods along and can more or less completely focus on offense.

Yeah, completely agree. In dogfighting, frequently he who can turn tightest wins. Unless you have a turret, in which case it is less important, but still allows you to dodge arcs more effectively.

An interesting theory, but not one that is supported by the numbers. The geometry of the game fundamentally dictates that the best dial in the game, even one that is all greens of every possible maneuver, will still be inferior to a "standard" dial on a normal ship (edit:) that has a turret. The Defender's jousting efficiency (~76%) is about the same as a turreted ship (named YT-1300 in the range of 75%, VT-49 in the range of 70% - 79%). But turreted ships have.... well, turrets. And way more upgrade slots, like crew slots.

Hence the rationale that you could almost add a turret to the Defender and have it be balanced for its point cost.

All I'm going to say is that the Defender is not for everyone. Much like a Firespray with HLC, there is a skill barrier. If it doesn't fit your flying style, that is fine. Nothing in the games I've flown with the Defender has shown it to be as bad as people say it is. Because it doesn't fly how you want it, doesn't make it a disapointment.

@red castle

I'm of course only putting out my own opinion which like everyone else is formed from personal experience, and from that personal experience I can say it's once in a blue moon when I play a game and I have a ship being shot at but unable to return fire more than once or twice in a game.

9/10 focus or boost/barrel roll are flat out the better option.

1. The pilot abilities are still disappointing. They are, indisputably, inflexible. Vessery requires you to build a list around him (note: his pilot ability seems far better suited for Rebels) and Rex, PS8 mind you, benefits from shooting last. Additionally, there's a chance you may not see Rex's ability come to fruition, given the importance of saving the focus token for defense.

Tie Advanced, Tie Bomber, Tie Defender, Lambda Shuttle, Decimator and Firespray all have native TL action, then there is Targetting Computer or Fire Control System for the others. Yes you need to build around Vessery ability to make it worthwhile, but when you do, and it's not that hard, he is a beast. For Brath, shield doesn't regenerate every turn, so even if you don,t get to use it the first turn, maybe you'll be able to the second or third... or maybe never during the game. But when it does activate, it is devastating! With the current big shield meta, Brath is in heaven.

2. It still sucks at clearing stress and has stress-inducing turns. This puts a larger penalty on using elite pilot traits that use stress as a cost. Additionally, we are seeing more abilities and weapons added to the game that induce stress. I think FFG really overcompensated for the white k-turn here.

Stress is the Defender weakness. But, again especially with Vessery 'free' target lock, the Defender is not as action dependant as some other craft is. With the 5 straight being green, you always have the option to get the hell out and regroup. White k-turn does offset, at least for me, the 1 and 2 hard being red.

3. Cost. Players wanting to field the Defender competitively need to a good argument to field Vessery (for example) over alternatives. For example, would a naked Vessery ever be of greater value than Vader with TIE/x1, Lone Wolf, a list-independent pilot skill, and Engine Upgrade? On this note, it almost seems silly to field a Defender over a TIE/x1 Advanced. A PS2 Tempest Pilot with Accuracy Corrector is a whopping 9 points cheaper than a PS1 Defender. I think the main question really is whether or not you need a small-base cannon ship in your list. I'm not convinced that anybody would choose it primarily for its movement dial and one more hull.

Why not pair them both? Vessery and Vader will complement each other so perfectly. Vader TL, doesn't spend it to use ATC, then Vessery shoot the same target with a focus and TL. Give Decoy to Vessery and you can shoot with Vessery before Vader so Vader free Crit have more chance to be effective. Vader will even relieve some pressure for Vessery by being a highest priority target.

I tried out that dual Defender with decoy list and VI Rexler and it was a hoot!

My friend wanted to run the Worlds 2015 Fat Han list. The trick was whether or not to spend the 'tag' TL that Rexler has after Col Vessery does the Free TL + Focus. Think it could could give Phantoms a headache provided one can keep the two defenders within 1-2 of each other.

The plan was don't let up on the Falcon till it was a dead gundark while ignoring the Tala's... since Col. V was using his focus most of the time to dump 3-4 hits on the Falcon, he eventually went down to the nitpicks of the three angry Talas.

But in the end, 3 full Tala's were picked off by Rexler.

The list had a hard time vs. a mini swarm list consisting of Soontir, Howl, backstabber and a bunch of TIE's. Took out Soontir right on the get go, then Howlrunner, but the dice gods were cruel.

Would it make sense to give Vesserly veteran instincts and leave Rexler at 8 so that you can choose to fire Vesserly first and let them both spend target locks?

I think if you don't see a lot of dangerous PS9 stuff around, that's a great option, but against PS that moves after Rex, you often don't get to TL on that first turn because you won't be in range until they move, which raises all sorts of difficulties I mention above. I like PS10 a lot also because my final 3 points in my list is an Ion Pulse Missile on Rex. When you have one of those moving last, it seriously restricts the movements that certain ships can make for fear of getting ioned off the board or onto a rock. With Rex at a lower PS, higher PS opponents would know if I had a Target Lock or arc on them, and could maneuver more freely near the edge of the board.

I love putting Pulse Missiles on named Defenders in Epic. Well really, they're good on almost anything in Epic. But I've had Rexler and Vessery flying together take out an entire Transport by themselves in two rounds of firing. Epic is the exception to my tendency not to fly those two in the same list, because I still have tons of points left over for Gunboat Buddy.

It's also true that neither Accuracy Corrector nor Advanced Targeting Computer is quite the equivalent of a native 3 Attack. Those upgrades are more like a half-step between 2 Attack and 3 Attack.

ATC is actually strictly better than a native 3 attack, except under certain circumstances (Defenders with higher PS and Expert Handling).

On turn 1 (first turn your ships are in range 3 anyway) you TL and don't get to use it. Giving you 2 A + 1 Crit. This averages to 2 total hits (.5 * 2 + 1).

On turn 2 you get to focus, giving you 2A w/ focus + 1 Crit. This averages to 2.5 hits (.5 * 2 + .25*2 + 1).

Native 3 A with no modifiers = 1.5 hits. 3A with focus or TL = 2.25 hits. 3A with focus and TL = 2.8125 hits.

This means after turn 1 x1's can attack better than a native 3 A under all circumstances except a TL and focused 3A. It also means x1's can perform defensive actions and still attack reasonably well.

It's not that simple, because the game's geometry gets in the way. The first engagement might happen at either Range 3 or Range 2; either way, the ship with 3 Attack and a token to support it is up by a full point of damage, on average. That means the second engagement could happen at Range 2 or Range 1, and could have an action for your attacker or could have required a K-turn to keep your target in-arc.

The TIE Advanced is in a bad position, though, because its lack of a 1-straight maneuver gives it relatively poor range management. You might be able to avoid K-turning by slow-rolling, but that still doesn't help your attack. So you might have focus for your dice and a TL to trigger your Advanced Targeting Computer, but it's also very possible that you'll be left rolling naked dice again. And if someone should happen to kill your target before you attack, you lose the benefits of ATC anyway.

TL;DR: 2 Attack + Advanced Targeting Computer can outpace 3 Attack, but only if it can maintain attention on a single target for multiple successive rounds without spending actions or taking stress.

I don't demand a fix or anything i think defenders work okay, but hows this:

Linked fire: when equipped with an ion cannon you may attack with both weapons at the same time.

It fits with the canon of the defender, only works with one weapon system so you cant buy a HLC and roll 7 dice.

Actually I'd settle for just combining the two affects. Deal damage like lasers, ion like an ion cannon. So for instance at range 1 you fire 4 dice, two hits end up getting through everything, the enemy takes two damage and an ion. Boom. Linked fire.

And the PS3 is very sad without an EPT.

Can't argue with that. For all the fluff that went into them being the hottiest shottiest of hot shot pilots, you'd think putting an EPT on the PS1 and PS 3 would have been a given. I don't know the lore of it, wouldn't even a novice Defender pilot need some 30 confirmed kills between a TIE and an Interceptor to even qualify for flying a Defender?

TL;DR: 2 Attack + Advanced Targeting Computer can outpace 3 Attack, but only if it can maintain attention on a single target for multiple successive rounds without spending actions or taking stress.

Vader is a special case mathematically, although in-game he will likely be the most common (barring some new spectacular unspoiled Advanced pilot). Here's some meta-wide damage averages to get a general idea:

Baselines (all 75% chance of focus on offense):

2 base attack: 1.0

2 base attack + accuracy corrector: ~1.46

3 base attack: ~1.70

4 base attack: ~2.5

Some scenarios, all with 2 base attack dice:

• Scenario #1 (vanilla Vader): 75% chance focus, 100% chance Target Lock: ~1.4x
• Scenario #2 (ATC Vader): 75% chance focus, 100% chance Target Lock: ~2.0x
• Scenario #3 (ATC Vader + Predator): 75% chance focus, 100% chance Target Lock + 1 reroll: ~2.5x

Now assuming 100% chance of both focus and TL (possible with ATC once TL is queued up, allowing for F+E as actions, with evade on defense)

• Scenario #4 (ATC Vader): 100% chance focus, 100% chance Target Lock: ~2.26x
• Scenario #5 (ATC Vader + Predator): 100% chance focus, 100% chance Target Lock + 1 reroll: ~2.70x

TL;DR: Vader with Predator will be about the same or slightly better than having 4 base attack with 75% chance of focus on offense. Vader without Predator will be equivalent to about 3.5 base attack dice, or closer to 4 if your action economy is good.

And the PS3 is very sad without an EPT.

Can't argue with that. For all the fluff that went into them being the hottiest shottiest of hot shot pilots, you'd think putting an EPT on the PS1 and PS 3 would have been a given. I don't know the lore of it, wouldn't even a novice Defender pilot need some 30 confirmed kills between a TIE and an Interceptor to even qualify for flying a Defender?

Yeah, from a game balance perspective I would rather the PS1's not have an EPT, but the PS3s really need it in this case to offset their white K turns getting blocked. As Alex Davy said, the Defender is one of the weird cases where the PS1 can actually be better than the PS3.

I have to agree. PS1 Defenders do seem to be stronger than the PS3s, especially if you load them with ion cannons. In addition to being exceptionally hard to block, they shoot last. While normally shooting last is bad, here it means they ionize the right target and their focus token makes them significantly less attractive to shoot at.

I love the Defender and really do believe that most people hating on it do not fly them well, but I also have to agree they are overcosted. They can still put in work and are in a MUCH better place than the advanced was in.

I think the defender is a great fighter. Well actually, as it is in x wing its an engine with guns strapped on. Goes really fast in a straight line, kinda like a real world jet interceptor. They work really well when you kit them out in their "historical" configuration, with an Ion cannon. I'm sure the HLC is good but its too expensive for my tastes.

Just wanted to chime in here and say great thread, personally I love the Defender but have to admit I only started flying them to annoy my mate, and now I can't stop. My current go to list is a Double D list and Ive been flying it at any event I can get to, it's a little different to the builds I've seen on here...

============ Double D Mk2 ============

100 points Pilots ------

Rexler Brath (52) TIE Defender (37), Proton Rockets (3), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Lone Wolf (2), Stealth Device (3)

Colonel Vessery (48) TIE Defender (35), Cluster Missiles (4), Autoblaster (5), Veteran Instincts (1), Stealth Device (3)

Biggest problem I'm having at the moment is Double Decimator lists, they punish me hard, but I belive this game is mostly about practice and familiarity with your lists so I'm not gonna moan about the maths.

So much interest in defenders. I have to admit initially I didn't like it, over costed and cant really turn. I did have some success very early against them with Bee's also. But then after a while I noticed that they seemed to do well against most lists. It is hard to compare them to another ship. Possibly Bee's but as for the Empire not much and at a stretch the Advanced, Phantom only because of shields. But I think its in its own category for sure with the white K, 3 shields and 3 agility. It is one of the few imperial ships that can take a hit including crits from an alpha strike and still keep going. I believe it has its place and if used correctly can be very deadly.

I don't demand a fix or anything i think defenders work okay, but hows this:

Linked fire: when equipped with an ion cannon you may attack with both weapons at the same time.

It fits with the canon of the defender, only works with one weapon system so you cant buy a HLC and roll 7 dice.

Actually I'd settle for just combining the two affects. Deal damage like lasers, ion like an ion cannon. So for instance at range 1 you fire 4 dice, two hits end up getting through everything, the enemy takes two damage and an ion. Boom. Linked fire.

That is what I was wanting done also! That would make the Defender very unique but in my opinion with a white K-turn might make it too powerful. That is my favorite move with a Defender on the alpha strike. If I can line up an ion hit with room to K behind it is devastating to opponents especially if you can K into range 1.