I think my first comparison might be misleading. That one is comparing Keyan who has hlc to a vanilla delta defender. That's not a fair comparison as it turns out +6 points in favour of Keyan turns out pretty good for him.

The comparison below that is where the defender shines. If they're both stressed, yes Keyan wins, but that's sort of the point of his ability. Assuming the defender gets to focus, keyan loses at all ranges.

Ok so what I get from this is, vanilla Keyan vs delta defender loses. Keyan vs any other defender wins since he gets bonus points for upgrades like adv sensors? Honestly tho on paper that's what the math might say but on the table Keyan still outmaneuvers defenders. I think vanilla Keyan vs a vanilla delta would be a lot closer than the math says.

This all seems misleading. Who is running Keyan without an ept or sensor slot? In particular ptl and advanced sensors.

Hahaha I agree adv sensors is how i usually run him. That puts him in the 32 point range. 2 points above the vanilla delta. Even if we give the delta 2 points there are no upgrades besides Flechette cannon it could take except bumping up to onyx and that's not helping haha.

Yes unfortunately there is nothing at two points that really helps them. Though I do like shied upgrades that further muddles the comparison.

It's hard to measure upgrade slots for math, and likewise hard to measure maneuverability, which is personal preference I think, because I find the defender pleasantly spry despite the appearances.

I would really love to see a few games played 1 vs 1 between both set ups (vanilla Keyan vs delta and adv sensor Keyan vs delta).

It's hard to measure upgrade slots for math, and likewise hard to measure maneuverability, which is personal preference I think, because I find the defender pleasantly spry despite the appearances.

Yes that is true. Don't get me wrong the defender is maneuverable but the bwing is just more maneuverable and tack on moving after and it will most likely end up in a better position then the defender will.

I'm not clear on why Delta vs. Keyan is significant in any way in terms of math-wing. There's a simple series of scenarios to consider in a joust between those two.

1.) Assuming they start nose-to-nose about range 3, the Defender first attempts to cause a bump by moving into a spot that overlaps a 1- and 2-move of the B-wing. It target locks for its action. This prevents a B-wing K-turn, and prevents an exchange of fire if Keyan moves 1. All other moves are overshoots.

2.) Both ships K-turn: Delta has a Focus/TL and Keyan has a Stress during the exchange of fire.

3.) Delta sets up a bump and TLs for action or overshoot by Keyan.

4.) You get the idea...

So basically, you get an exchange of fire every other turn, where the Delta has a TL for attack and a Focus for Defense (or TL/Focus for attack) and Keyan has a stress to boost his Attack. The Delta should be averaging a bit less than 2 damage every exchange if only the TL is used to boost offense. Keyan will be be averaging about half a damage per exchange if the Delta keeps the Focus for defense. There's a lot of variablility due to small number of dice rolled, but we're looking at averages. This weights this exchange heavily in favor of the Delta.

Keyan can do a few things to mitigate this situation, though. If he successfully gets an overshoot instead of a bump, he can store a TL of his own. Consequently, the post-K-turn exchanges will be out of range, and the follow-up shots might be at close range with each side getting TL/Focus if the Defender fails to correctly set up a bump. This is better for Keyan in general, but still favors the Delta because its stats allow for a significant increase in resilience via a Defensive Focus.

An Advanced Sensors Farlander gets an action before it bumps, so it can bank a Target Lock, and the results look a lot like the overshoot maneuver result. You could keep adding more stuff to Farlander, but then you get into Rexler Brath territory, and he just steals Keyan's lunch money.

It's hard to measure upgrade slots for math, and likewise hard to measure maneuverability, which is personal preference I think, because I find the defender pleasantly spry despite the appearances.

Yes that is true. Don't get me wrong the defender is maneuverable but the bwing is just more maneuverable and tack on moving after and it will most likely end up in a better position then the defender will.

?

No the B-wing is not more maneuverable, the dials are too different and both are quite limited (though the defender is far faster). Keyan is more maneuverable than a defender, provided he gets his shots.

In my experience, though, B-wings do not much like Defenders especially not with control cannons (either flechette or ion). Math-wing does not account for the white 4k nor the fact that it really doesn't

matter if one side doesn't get to shoot at all

If we're talking about slow rolling HLCs, the B-wing has it by virtue of the 1 forward. I don't take HLC on either ship, though

I'm not clear on why Delta vs. Keyan is significant in any way in terms of math-wing. There's a simple series of scenarios to consider in a joust between those two.

1.) Assuming they start nose-to-nose about range 3, the Defender first attempts to cause a bump by moving into a spot that overlaps a 1- and 2-move of the B-wing. It target locks for its action. This prevents a B-wing K-turn, and prevents an exchange of fire if Keyan moves 1. All other moves are overshoots.

2.) Both ships K-turn: Delta has a Focus/TL and Keyan has a Stress during the exchange of fire.

3.) Delta sets up a bump and TLs for action or overshoot by Keyan.

4.) You get the idea...

So basically, you get an exchange of fire every other turn, where the Delta has a TL for attack and a Focus for Defense (or TL/Focus for attack) and Keyan has a stress to boost his Attack. The Delta should be averaging a bit less than 2 damage every exchange if only the TL is used to boost offense. Keyan will be be averaging about half a damage per exchange if the Delta keeps the Focus for defense. There's a lot of variablility due to small number of dice rolled, but we're looking at averages. This weights this exchange heavily in favor of the Delta.

Keyan can do a few things to mitigate this situation, though. If he successfully gets an overshoot instead of a bump, he can store a TL of his own. Consequently, the post-K-turn exchanges will be out of range, and the follow-up shots might be at close range with each side getting TL/Focus if the Defender fails to correctly set up a bump. This is better for Keyan in general, but still favors the Delta because its stats allow for a significant increase in resilience via a Defensive Focus.

An Advanced Sensors Farlander gets an action before it bumps, so it can bank a Target Lock, and the results look a lot like the overshoot maneuver result. You could keep adding more stuff to Farlander, but then you get into Rexler Brath territory, and he just steals Keyan's lunch money.

Or Keyan barrel rolls with advanced sensors and never bumps.

I'm not clear on why Delta vs. Keyan is significant in any way in terms of math-wing. There's a simple series of scenarios to consider in a joust between those two.

1.) Assuming they start nose-to-nose about range 3, the Defender first attempts to cause a bump by moving into a spot that overlaps a 1- and 2-move of the B-wing. It target locks for its action. This prevents a B-wing K-turn, and prevents an exchange of fire if Keyan moves 1. All other moves are overshoots.

2.) Both ships K-turn: Delta has a Focus/TL and Keyan has a Stress during the exchange of fire.

3.) Delta sets up a bump and TLs for action or overshoot by Keyan.

4.) You get the idea...

So basically, you get an exchange of fire every other turn, where the Delta has a TL for attack and a Focus for Defense (or TL/Focus for attack) and Keyan has a stress to boost his Attack. The Delta should be averaging a bit less than 2 damage every exchange if only the TL is used to boost offense. Keyan will be be averaging about half a damage per exchange if the Delta keeps the Focus for defense. There's a lot of variablility due to small number of dice rolled, but we're looking at averages. This weights this exchange heavily in favor of the Delta.

Keyan can do a few things to mitigate this situation, though. If he successfully gets an overshoot instead of a bump, he can store a TL of his own. Consequently, the post-K-turn exchanges will be out of range, and the follow-up shots might be at close range with each side getting TL/Focus if the Defender fails to correctly set up a bump. This is better for Keyan in general, but still favors the Delta because its stats allow for a significant increase in resilience via a Defensive Focus.

An Advanced Sensors Farlander gets an action before it bumps, so it can bank a Target Lock, and the results look a lot like the overshoot maneuver result. You could keep adding more stuff to Farlander, but then you get into Rexler Brath territory, and he just steals Keyan's lunch money.

Or Keyan barrel rolls with advanced sensors and never bumps.

but, as others have asked, why in god's name are we comparing Keyan to a Delta or any generic defender?

Keyan is a.) a rebel b.) a named pilot (you only get one Keyan) c.) a named pilot with an awesome, unique ability that completely and utterly changes the dynamic of the ship he is flying

Not to mention the Defender's strength lies in anything but raw jousting value. The whole "much more than the combination of its parts" deal is accurate, insofar as you have to combine an excellent but overpriced statline with a unique maneuver and (imo) the cannon upgrade to dominate the joust instead of just exchanging dice.

Between control cannons and the 4k, you can take complete control of the joust and throw mathwing out the window, because there is no jousting value if there is no joust Defenders aren't B-wings, but they are among the B-wing's worst nightmares (flechette cannon, ion cannon).

I think my first comparison might be misleading. That one is comparing Keyan who has hlc to a vanilla delta defender. That's not a fair comparison as it turns out +6 points in favour of Keyan turns out pretty good for him.

The comparison below that is where the defender shines. If they're both stressed, yes Keyan wins, but that's sort of the point of his ability. Assuming the defender gets to focus, keyan loses at all ranges.

Ok so what I get from this is, vanilla Keyan vs delta defender loses. Keyan vs any other defender wins since he gets bonus points for upgrades like adv sensors? Honestly tho on paper that's what the math might say but on the table Keyan still outmaneuvers defenders. I think vanilla Keyan vs a vanilla delta would be a lot closer than the math says.

As soon as the Defender brings an Ion Cannon, Keyan isn't outmanuevering anything.

Defender vs keyan farlander w/hlc? Keyan destroys all defenders except Rex. For the same points as an onyx squad vanilla defender you get a bwing with ps 7 and free k turns/focus who will be shooting before your defender. Ok so you take the 32 point defender and Keyan still shoots before you. Ok you take Vessery for 35 points and Keyan still shoots before you and now he can tack on a hlc giving him 4 shots at all ranges for just a point more than vessery. Hope those green dice hold up for those defenders.

Let's do some math.

I'm going to be pitting Keyan + HLC (36 points) vs. an Onyx Defender (30 points).

Assumptions:

Focus/Stress is always taken, and always spent on offense.

The ships are dueling while somehow stuck in the state listed at the range listed and just shooting each other.

Range 3, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 10.6 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 1.5 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 7.11 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both stressed:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 4/8s of the time. He will do 2 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.92 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 3, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 2 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.75 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 5.33 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 2, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 2.25 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 4.27 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

Range 1, both focused:

Keyan will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 4 dice, hitting 6/8s of the time. He will do 3 damage per turn.

Keyan will be rolling 1 die, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 0.375 damage per turn.

Onyx will be rolling 3 dice, evading 3/8s of the time. He will evade 1.125 damage per turn.

Keyan dies in 3.05 turns.

Onyx dies in 3.2 turns.

If we adjust these numbers so that Keyan does not have HLC:R3/S: Keyan 10.67 turns, Defender 8 turnsR2/S: Keyan 7.11 turns, Defender 5.33 turnsR1/S: Keyan 4.29 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR3/F: Keyan 5.33 turns, Defender 8 turnsR2/F: Keyan 4.27 turns, Defender 5.33 turnsR1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we adjust these numbers so that both have HLC:

R3/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/S: Keyan 4.92 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR3/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/F: Keyan 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

If we pit a Blue with HLC (29 points) vs. an Onyx:

R3/S: Blue 10.67 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR2/S: Blue 7.11 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR1/S: Blue 4.92 turns, Defender 6.86 turnsR3/F: Blue 5.33 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR2/F: Blue 4.27 turns, Defender 3.2 turnsR1/F: Blue 3.05 turns, Defender 3.2 turns

So, that's a whole lot of numbers. What we can summarize from this is as follows:

-Keyan's biggest strength is easily that he never doesn't focus offensively. This has a huge impact on DPS.

-If a 30 point Onyx Defender can focus each turn, and Keyan does what he does (always has an offensive focus), the defender wins at every range assuming they're shooting the same die value (both either having or not having HLC).

-A blue pilot with HLC will beat a defender if they both focus every time at ranges 2-3 (surprise!), but if the blue is stressed and the defender isn't (White K vs. Red K), the Defender will easily win at each range.

I'm not certain your point is made, and after having done a lot of math on the subject, I think that Defenders still come out on top. They key is keep them stress free and always take a focus.

The big problem that I see with your math is that in a dog fight with Keyan a Delta would probably be spending the focus defensively if they needed them.

I think my first comparison might be misleading. That one is comparing Keyan who has hlc to a vanilla delta defender. That's not a fair comparison as it turns out +6 points in favour of Keyan turns out pretty good for him.

The comparison below that is where the defender shines. If they're both stressed, yes Keyan wins, but that's sort of the point of his ability. Assuming the defender gets to focus, keyan loses at all ranges.

Ok so what I get from this is, vanilla Keyan vs delta defender loses. Keyan vs any other defender wins since he gets bonus points for upgrades like adv sensors? Honestly tho on paper that's what the math might say but on the table Keyan still outmaneuvers defenders. I think vanilla Keyan vs a vanilla delta would be a lot closer than the math says.

As soon as the Defender brings an Ion Cannon, Keyan isn't outmanuevering anything.

That's cute and I'll counter with flachette torpedoes and watch you try and ditch your stress. You won't be taking any actions on anything.

I think my first comparison might be misleading. That one is comparing Keyan who has hlc to a vanilla delta defender. That's not a fair comparison as it turns out +6 points in favour of Keyan turns out pretty good for him.

The comparison below that is where the defender shines. If they're both stressed, yes Keyan wins, but that's sort of the point of his ability. Assuming the defender gets to focus, keyan loses at all ranges.

Ok so what I get from this is, vanilla Keyan vs delta defender loses. Keyan vs any other defender wins since he gets bonus points for upgrades like adv sensors? Honestly tho on paper that's what the math might say but on the table Keyan still outmaneuvers defenders. I think vanilla Keyan vs a vanilla delta would be a lot closer than the math says.

As soon as the Defender brings an Ion Cannon, Keyan isn't outmanuevering anything.

That's cute and I'll counter with flachette torpedoes and watch you try and ditch your stress. You won't be taking any actions on anything.

lol no you're not

flechette on Keyan is just a bad idea

Nera holds onto those

(not to mention the Defender both K-turns just fine while stressed and will almost always ionize Keyan even without actions because it's 3 dice against 1)

but, again, this straight "my dad could be your dad" comparison doesn't get us anywhere. Keyan and the Defender are two completely different beasts, and Keyan's a completely different beast to all the other B-wing pilots!

Let me redirect you to a post that got overlooked when this (in my opinion pointless) comparison started running off the tracks.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/133918-tie-defender-much-more-then-the-sum-of-its-parts/page-11#entry1492882

but, as others have asked, why in god's name are we comparing Keyan to a Delta or any generic defender?

It started mostly as idle (I guess more than idle) curiosity about the math of that fight since someone said "Keyan tears all defenders but Brath to pieces", and I love defenders and was curious. It became a train and then derailed this thread somewhat.

Yeah, a bit.

Major issue with the whole B vs Defender though - Bs have a pile of HP but suffer far more attrition from 2 attack filler like Zs and TIEs and don't have the speed to really keep away from them. Defenders are far better at kiting and playing the disengage/re-engage game.

It's not b's vs defender it's really only Keyan vs defender comparison since they do actually have things in common.

Both get to kturn with no penalty. They can do all the moves the other can do minus a 5 straight and 3 hard turn. They both are 3 attack and have lots of hp. They both like jousting. Difference between them is defenders don't like stress whereas Keyan eats stress for breakfast. Comparing a normal bwing would be completely different but Keyan in my opinion is a lot more similar than some believe. But this thread is only about defenders so I can't mention anything else apparently haha.

It's not b's vs defender it's really only Keyan vs defender comparison since they do actually have things in common.

Both get to kturn with no penalty. They can do all the moves the other can do minus a 5 straight and 3 hard turn. They both are 3 attack and have lots of hp. They both like jousting. Difference between them is defenders don't like stress whereas Keyan eats stress for breakfast. Comparing a normal bwing would be completely different but Keyan in my opinion is a lot more similar than some believe. But this thread is only about defenders so I can't mention anything else apparently haha.

mainly because you can't really compare the two without going over an exhaustive list of differences between the two ships

the fact that the come from different factions already makes it a moot comparison because if you're playing empire you can't opt for Keyan over a defender anyway

I'm not clear on why Delta vs. Keyan is significant in any way in terms of math-wing. There's a simple series of scenarios to consider in a joust between those two.

1.) Assuming they start nose-to-nose about range 3, the Defender first attempts to cause a bump by moving into a spot that overlaps a 1- and 2-move of the B-wing. It target locks for its action. This prevents a B-wing K-turn, and prevents an exchange of fire if Keyan moves 1. All other moves are overshoots.

2.) Both ships K-turn: Delta has a Focus/TL and Keyan has a Stress during the exchange of fire.

3.) Delta sets up a bump and TLs for action or overshoot by Keyan.

4.) You get the idea...

So basically, you get an exchange of fire every other turn, where the Delta has a TL for attack and a Focus for Defense (or TL/Focus for attack) and Keyan has a stress to boost his Attack. The Delta should be averaging a bit less than 2 damage every exchange if only the TL is used to boost offense. Keyan will be be averaging about half a damage per exchange if the Delta keeps the Focus for defense. There's a lot of variablility due to small number of dice rolled, but we're looking at averages. This weights this exchange heavily in favor of the Delta.

Keyan can do a few things to mitigate this situation, though. If he successfully gets an overshoot instead of a bump, he can store a TL of his own. Consequently, the post-K-turn exchanges will be out of range, and the follow-up shots might be at close range with each side getting TL/Focus if the Defender fails to correctly set up a bump. This is better for Keyan in general, but still favors the Delta because its stats allow for a significant increase in resilience via a Defensive Focus.

An Advanced Sensors Farlander gets an action before it bumps, so it can bank a Target Lock, and the results look a lot like the overshoot maneuver result. You could keep adding more stuff to Farlander, but then you get into Rexler Brath territory, and he just steals Keyan's lunch money.

Or Keyan barrel rolls with advanced sensors and never bumps.

He then has no action to modify dice. If they're lined up across from one another, they'll either both have shots or neither will have shots after the barrel roll. If neither have shots, a barrel roll to avoid bumping is pretty much the same as bumping. If they both have shots, the Defender will have an action to modify attacks and Keyan won't. If they're not on anti-parallel flightpaths, arc dodging for Keyan becomes possible, but at that point it really comes down to whoever anticipates movement better. The brute force of the white K-turn with the Defender's stats give it an edge in almost any 1vs1 scenario with a non-turreted ship.

I'll agree with Ficklegreendice that it's largely a pointless comparison, but this is a Defender thread, and I'm trying to point out how tactics using its unique dial lets it do some pretty amazing stuff in a situation where basic mathwing suggests it would get eaten up.

I'm not clear on why Delta vs. Keyan is significant in any way in terms of math-wing. There's a simple series of scenarios to consider in a joust between those two.

1.) Assuming they start nose-to-nose about range 3, the Defender first attempts to cause a bump by moving into a spot that overlaps a 1- and 2-move of the B-wing. It target locks for its action. This prevents a B-wing K-turn, and prevents an exchange of fire if Keyan moves 1. All other moves are overshoots.

2.) Both ships K-turn: Delta has a Focus/TL and Keyan has a Stress during the exchange of fire.

3.) Delta sets up a bump and TLs for action or overshoot by Keyan.

4.) You get the idea...

So basically, you get an exchange of fire every other turn, where the Delta has a TL for attack and a Focus for Defense (or TL/Focus for attack) and Keyan has a stress to boost his Attack. The Delta should be averaging a bit less than 2 damage every exchange if only the TL is used to boost offense. Keyan will be be averaging about half a damage per exchange if the Delta keeps the Focus for defense. There's a lot of variablility due to small number of dice rolled, but we're looking at averages. This weights this exchange heavily in favor of the Delta.

Keyan can do a few things to mitigate this situation, though. If he successfully gets an overshoot instead of a bump, he can store a TL of his own. Consequently, the post-K-turn exchanges will be out of range, and the follow-up shots might be at close range with each side getting TL/Focus if the Defender fails to correctly set up a bump. This is better for Keyan in general, but still favors the Delta because its stats allow for a significant increase in resilience via a Defensive Focus.

An Advanced Sensors Farlander gets an action before it bumps, so it can bank a Target Lock, and the results look a lot like the overshoot maneuver result. You could keep adding more stuff to Farlander, but then you get into Rexler Brath territory, and he just steals Keyan's lunch money.

Or Keyan barrel rolls with advanced sensors and never bumps.

He then has no action to modify dice. If they're lined up across from one another, they'll either both have shots or neither will have shots after the barrel roll. If neither have shots, a barrel roll to avoid bumping is pretty much the same as bumping. If they both have shots, the Defender will have an action to modify attacks and Keyan won't. If they're not on anti-parallel flightpaths, arc dodging for Keyan becomes possible, but at that point it really comes down to whoever anticipates movement better. The brute force of the white K-turn with the Defender's stats give it an edge in almost any 1vs1 scenario with a non-turreted ship.

I'll agree with Ficklegreendice that it's largely a pointless comparison, but this is a Defender thread, and I'm trying to point out how tactics using its unique dial lets it do some pretty amazing stuff in a situation where basic mathwing suggests it would get eaten up.

Not to mention if they are both armed with Ion Cannons. Keyan MAY be able to land an Ion, but that Defender will be landing that ION every time. The first time Keyan gets Ioned puts him way behind for the rest of the match.

While also assuming that the b wing pilot doesn't know how to fly theirs...

I'm all for showing the Defender is a good ship, but I can't stand these set pieces predicated on the idea that the other pilot will make terrible choices.

Like how you are completely refusing to acknowledge that if a defender goes for a block against a k turning Keyan, Keyan can simply see where you are, barrel to the side with advanced sensors, and get a range one focused shot because of the stress!

While also assuming that the b wing pilot doesn't know how to fly theirs...

I'm all for showing the Defender is a good ship, but I can't stand these set pieces predicated on the idea that the other pilot will make terrible choices.

Like how you are completely refusing to acknowledge that if a defender goes for a block against a k turning Keyan, Keyan can simply see where you are, barrel to the side with advanced sensors, and get a range one focused shot because of the stress!

which is further reason why these comparisons are worthless

assuming bad play on one side is often countered by assuming bad play on the other

not even getting into the fact that we're somehow expecting Keyan and a Defender to be the only ships on the table

While also assuming that the b wing pilot doesn't know how to fly theirs...

I'm all for showing the Defender is a good ship, but I can't stand these set pieces predicated on the idea that the other pilot will make terrible choices.

Like how you are completely refusing to acknowledge that if a defender goes for a block against a k turning Keyan, Keyan can simply see where you are, barrel to the side with advanced sensors, and get a range one focused shot because of the stress!

The initial scenario was bare Keyan vs Delta. I admit I didn't discuss the Barrel Roll, then K-turn with advanced sensors. Let me do that now. In that case, the Defender pilot has two choices at the initial long-range jousting position, go for a block, or move short (2-straight, basically blocking the 2-3 straight position of the B-wing). A short move by Keyan means both players exchange fire with a Focus. If Keyan goes for a K-turn hoping that the Defender will go for the 1-2 straight, he can then use advanced sensors to barrel roll forward and end his movement more or less beside the Defender. This probably gives neither any shots, but leaves Keyan with a stress that he can't shoot away. This is the hazard of the short K-turn. All in all, it will generally come down to who guesses better, and because it's only two ships, there's a fair chance that dice will have a say.

Regardless, if both players know what they're doing, it will be close, which one would expect from two arced ships with similar costs.

@FGD: Raw math comparisons are not useful, but thinking through the possibilities of maneuvers in simple engagements is useful just because it shows what kinds of things you can think about during an engagement. Anything more than a simple 1v1 gets too complex to talk out, but 1v1s happen enough at the end of a game that it's not worthless to think about them.

While also assuming that the b wing pilot doesn't know how to fly theirs...

I'm all for showing the Defender is a good ship, but I can't stand these set pieces predicated on the idea that the other pilot will make terrible choices.

Like how you are completely refusing to acknowledge that if a defender goes for a block against a k turning Keyan, Keyan can simply see where you are, barrel to the side with advanced sensors, and get a range one focused shot because of the stress!

The initial scenario was bare Keyan vs Delta. I admit I didn't discuss the Barrel Roll, then K-turn with advanced sensors. Let me do that now. In that case, the Defender pilot has two choices at the initial long-range jousting position, go for a block, or move short (2-straight, basically blocking the 2-3 straight position of the B-wing). A short move by Keyan means both players exchange fire with a Focus. If Keyan goes for a K-turn hoping that the Defender will go for the 1-2 straight, he can then use advanced sensors to barrel roll forward and end his movement more or less beside the Defender. This probably gives neither any shots, but leaves Keyan with a stress that he can't shoot away. This is the hazard of the short K-turn. All in all, it will generally come down to who guesses better, and because it's only two ships, there's a fair chance that dice will have a say.

Regardless, if both players know what they're doing, it will be close, which one would expect from two arced ships with similar costs.

@FGD: Raw math comparisons are not useful, but thinking through the possibilities of maneuvers in simple engagements is useful just because it shows what kinds of things you can think about during an engagement. Anything more than a simple 1v1 gets too complex to talk out, but 1v1s happen enough at the end of a game that it's not worthless to think about them.

Yes I agree with this. I believe it would be really close in a 1 vs 1 and matchup I would like to see.