I'm wondering Is there anything like that in the Imperium? For example,

pop stars,

heavy metal bands touring across the Galaxy,

MTV,

pop music radio,

Cosmopolitan magazine,

role playing games like Dark Heresy,

google.com,

Windows Vista / Linux,

computer games,

science fiction / fantasy,

etc.

Your detailed comments will be appreciated!

I think that for most people, their lords and masters keep them too busy to do much more than collapse in a flop-house drinking alcohol with your fellow supressed peons.

But for the priveledged few, the nobles and tradehouses, certainly. They would have all this, and more. The level of technological sophistication and "liberty" of content would vary from world to world, but the fluff-novels are filled with references to contemporary vid-pulp series picturing arbitrators solving convoluted cases with improbable use of action and violence, as well as heroic war-flicks with the heroes wading through armies of foul Xeno creatures with ease.

But just imagine the noble elite of any world: The resources of a planet at their disposal, and thanks to rejuve treatments, several lifetimes to piss away at the pursuit of entertainment. Of course they will have games, sports, competitions, patronage of arts, duels, anything they can imagine to help the time go by.

So, your opinion is that there is no such thing as the mass pop culture across the Imperium (only for a few privileged ones?)

As with all things in 40K, it depends on the world. In the galaxy as a whole, I would say these things do not exist. Communication and travel is too slow, and the galaxy too big, for a unified galactic culture to exist.

Also, it depends on what you mean, Modern pop stars and heavy metal bands, with the ideal of "sex, drugs, & rock roll," rebellion against authority and glorification of criminal behavior would definitely not be something tolerated by Imperial authorities. Imagine Madonna trying to do a show in Tehran. Now, musical groups whose message supported the cultural values and morals of the society would certainly exist. Not to say rebellious music wouldn't exist, but it would certainly be underground.

TV, radio, magazines and their associated popular entertainments could definitely exist on worlds with the technology to support them, but here again they would be subordinant to the will of the state and the values of the Imperial Creed. Censorship would be highly evident.

Computer networks, if they existed, would be both highly ritualized and probably highly restricted, if only because only a select few even know the proper rituals to use them. No "free flow of information" here. Computer games, IMO, border on sacrilege, akin to playing a game with the Church alter pieces. Training simulations might exist but games for pure fun... I don't see it.

Fantasy fiction I could definitely see. Science fiction, with it's inherent notions of progress and social change however, would be heretical.

The thing to remember is that the Imperial as a whole is an oppressive, fascist theocracy that values order, obedience, stability, ignorance and unquestioning faith and unfaltering loyalty. Individualism, freedom, liberty, progress, etc. are suspect at best, heretical at worst.

LuciusT said:

I see that. But considering the huge diversity of the Imperium, I think there might be worlds, even regions, where these values are seen from some different angle, thus allowing pop culture (as we know it) to prosper.

I'm asking this because that might prove to be a nice background for future scenarios.

egalor said:

Oh, absolutely. I can see it existing on a planetary or even sub-sector scale. The sector scale is pushing it, IMO, but possible. Balancing such a culture with the prevailing values of the Imperial cult would be an interesting exercise, to say the least, but it may be possible. It would definitely make for a good background for scenarios.

Well, the simple answer is: what else would people do with their lives? Yes, the life of the common worker sucks totally, but even they have some downtime. As mentioned in a similar thread, a lot will depend upon the technological and legal enlightenment of each particular planet, but there is no reason why a reasonably sophisticated world wouldnt have any or all of these things. The only real obstacles beyond having the relatove tech level of a planet will be either extreme reactionary-conservative politics, or an unusually powerful and repressive local Ministorum cult. Institutions like the Arbites and Administratum will even be required to uphold a certain degree of sophistication and freedom, because their power is derived from the Emperor's laws, and he was someone who by all accounts believed in enlightenment and at least a modicum of freedom. Many people wrongly focus on the technology of the 41st millenium, and portray it as primitive and backwards, when actually the designer Rick Priestly was focussing on the people being the ones that were primitive and backwards. The technology will mould to fit them and their prejudices, not the other way around. Its a subtle but important distinction. If the people of aworld can support it, you will have all the things you mentioned, and possibly more; if they cant support it, they wont.

Most of my games are set in fairly much a medieval setting to some extent in terms of its social structure, its very much fuedal in most areas with very influential church events. With that there are a relatively high amount of public holidays and festivities that go on during a working year. Joe Blow worker will work 7 days a week with time for prayers, eating, sleeping and making more Joe Blows, but during a standard 30 day month there will be about 5-6 days a month for various official Imperial holidays and the local traditional ones.

In regards to the latter, it'll really depend on where you are, but in any kind of feudal system the serfs need to work their collective arses off all the time to keep the economy going, but if you oppress them too much, they get very cranky pretty quick and have the odd rebellion. It may seem to be a fairly heavy concession on behalf of who's ruling them, but the reality is that its very unproductive to have any kind of rebellion so you've got to let them have a bit of their own way. Otherwise the lathes, mills and fields don't get worked, every bastard starves to death and the sector lord will kick your arse for not tithing correctly... which is sort of why I don't tend to agree with a lot of the official write-ups on some planets being viciously oppressive to their populations, they'd spend more time shooting up their workforce than making any kind of contribution to the Imperium and wouldnt last very long. (Sorry, just doesn't work like that anywhere for very long- outside a gulag of course)

The other good thing about official Imperial holidays is that they're generally religious, which puts the church in favour of the population as its the clergy's job to remind everyone to down tools for a day or two, put up with some doctrine about the emperor and then they can go off and get blitzed out of their skull and lazing around. Entertainment is not all that fancy in terms of technology at least legally, illegal and you could fairly much anything really ranging between anarchy-art to xenos artifacts to all sorts of archaeotech.

About the only real hubs of technology are probably in the older core segmentums and comparatively peaceful parts of the galaxy, out in old Calixis, its pretty much the arse-end of the galaxy in relation to anything

Is there any known singing pop star in 40k universe (I don't refer to Noise Marines, please ))?

Not in the modern sense- there have been a couple of mentions of 'small time' 'local' stars, generally in the context of USO shows (well, their equivalent), and some reference to prima donna-type singers among the remembrancers attached to the Great Crusade, plus the odd cabaret singer, but I think that's about it

egalor said:

I know of none.

"Would they have science fiction in the future?" It's an interesting question. As said above, I think not, as "progress" whether for good or ill is pretty much frowned upon. I think fantasy is a more likely candidate, with perhaps a historical basis: there's no reason something like LARPers couldn't exist, though possibly they might have more lethal weapons.

In general though, I think the usual applies - it's a big galaxy, everything happens somewhere, but for grimdark purposes, just make sure there's a lethal edge to it, and someone suffers for others' "fun".

Of course there are rpgs in 40k they play warhammer fantasy roleplay lol

They call it 'Humanhammer' there, and you can only play Marines and IG as the good guys, and Chaos, Eldar, Orks and so as the 'evil' ones.

It'd also be massively illegal, because it described Chaos in great detail (eg. at all). Anyone possessing a copy would be burned at the stake; God-Emperor forbid they find you had a copy of the expansion Bestiary too... The repression of it would make even the religious right think it was being taken a little too far

Well, as everybody else has said, pop culture would vary based on the planetary, sub-sector, and sector scales. However, as far as mass entertainment, the Ciaphas Cain novels routinely refer to "scrumball" (as close as I can tell, a combination of soccer/rugby union/American football/wargame) played on at least the Schola and sector league levels. Other references include numerous holodramas featuring such characters as hard-bitten Arbitrators, glory-hogging Lightning pilots, and even undercover Inquisitors.

Planetary and local entertainment is as varied as the planetary social structures involved. The story fluff for the old "Deathwing" expansion to "Space Hulk" showed the local city-dwelling populace engaged in rat fights and betting thereon, while the "plains people" and "hills people" (Amerind-based) engaged in competitive sport like counting coup in border skirmishes. When setting up a Necromunda campaign once I had an idea, having "tagging" a popular local underhive sport, and even allowing idle gang members to make checks and roll on a table to see if they tagged anywhere interesting during their downtime (and giving 1-3xp if they did!). 'Course, if anybody tagged the local Enforcer precinct courthouse, it affected the outlaw roll for "defacing Imperial property"!

Well, as for music pop there is one kind of music, at least, which is listened to by the mutants (if you have read Eisenhorn) "pound" is it called.

But no heavy metal. Hmm.

egalor said:

Funny you should mention the metal genre. I was just listening to a song by Slipknot the other day called "Pulse of the Maggots" and all I could think of during the shouted speech by Corey Taylor at the beginning of the song, was this huge angry mob of either The Pale Throng or perhaps The Pilgrims of Hayte listening to it before staging yet another rebellious and bloody action against Imperial authorities.

Metal is definitely the music of Chaos , and I guess it could prove to be a cool scenario where underground metal bands try to spread the message of Chaos to the youths of the working classes.

As pop culture on the other hand I think it would prove to be difficult. Imperial authorities (or the Ecclesiarchy for that matter) would never allow songs about rebellion, daemons, chaos and generally questioning of the ruling regime to be allowed as popular music. It's heresy for Emperors sake!

But in the underworld, the deepest underhive regions or in the cellars of corrupt noble estates secret covens of would be Chaos cultists could gather to listen to the wicked sounds of Slaaneshi death metal, working themselves into a trance like frenzy before taking to the streets and causing havoc and general mayhem. Something that the poor acolytes must try to put a stop to.

Perhaps the band playing are demagouges of the Pilgrims of Hayte? Or maybe they are really innocent people manipulated by possessed instruments they received from a shadowy stranger one evening?

I sense a plot forming!

Tyraxus said:

I have never read the Ciaphas Cain novels, but the more I hear about them, the more I am coming to view them in the same light that some people view Abnett's stuff... which is to say, sounds cool but what it has to do with 40K I don't know.

LuciusT said:

Quite a lot actually, since the authors behind them are pretty much single handedly being the ones fleshing out Imperial society since the Codexes and rulebooks primarily focus on the war-parts of th 41st millenium and little else.

The Ciaphas Cain novels also make it quite clear that culture differentiates a lot from world to world, although most of the works are written from Cain's own perspective and personal musings (since the books are supposed to be transcripts from his own "unofficial" memoirs), Inquisitor Amberely Vail sometimes interject with her own footnotes and text from other sources to describe a bigger picture.

In any case the Ciaphas Cain novels describes quite a few different Imperial worlds and their respective cultures are really different from one another. And if we're gonna discuss "canon" material here, are you really going to go up against an author who writes for the Black Library in saying whats "canon" or not?

>>as far as mass entertainment, the Ciaphas Cain novels routinely refer to "scrumball" (as close as I can tell, a combination of soccer/rugby union/American football/wargame) played on at least the Schola and sector league levels. Other references include numerous holodramas featuring such characters as hard-bitten Arbitrators, glory-hogging Lightning pilots, and even undercover Inquisitors.<<

The greatest impediment to the existance of an Imperium wide culture is the difficulty, expense and time of space travel. Vids may make their way throughout the core sectors and further, but by the time they get most anywhere the show will have been canceled on its planet of origin, or the type of music, art, etc. will have fallen out of style. In this way you'd have "waves" of popular culture moveing outward from their origin, reaching equally distant sectors more or less at the same time. (though, of course, warp travel being what it is some sectors would be ahead or behind the standard) Thus, anyone traveling from one sector to another would find such-and-such trend to appear (or not) in different stages of decay.

As others have said, within a system or sub-sector there'd be a little more cohesion.

I don't think that the large-scale media culture that seems to be implied in the Cain books is physically (logistically) possible given what we know of the Imperium's scale and transport and communications capabilities. Travel between planets (except for the supply ships that keep hive worlds going) is rare. Interstellar communication is probably ever rarer and is extremely unreliable. Mass pop culture requires ease of communication, which does not exist in 40K. The same reason there was no mass pop culture on Earth in 1600.

Those astropathic emails that Einsenhorn sends everybody aren't possible either.

bogi_khaosa said:

I would not say so, sir.

Without interstellar communication the Imperium could not have endured that long. Moreover, those Eisenhorn's emails are possible, if there is W40k. I even seriously doubt that only Inquisition has access to this kind of communication, in fact even far from that.

As for Earth 1600, there was popular culture limited only by the technical means which would allow to spread it widely. And 40k is considerably more than 1,6k.

Astropathic communications are broadcast by means of ornate rituals that can take weeks and are highly controlled. You cannot jot off an astropathic message. You cannot turn on your holovid on Fenksworld and see the episode of Grimdark Friends that is being broadcast from Scintilla.

Space travel takes weeks or months and is rare, done on huge, decrepit ships that follow the same courses they have followed for millenia. Thus. no Grimdark Madonnas going on tour throughout the Imperium (to all of its million words, no less). No distribution of the hot new single by Grimdark Pink to all ports of call. It is specifically modeled on, yes, the Age of Sail (a bit later than 1600), or rather a Grimdark version thereof.

This is why the Imperium is feudal. The logistics make it impossible for it to be otherwise, because the planets are barely in contact with each other, due to the nature of communication and space travel.

Moreover, interstellar communication requires astropaths. Astropaths are very rare, and using their powers tends to kill them after a while, as well as opening the doors to the Warp. Which is bad. Therefore, they are going to be used as rarely as possible, only to broadcast those messages that the powers that be think are extremely important. They are not going to be used to tell the galaxy about Malfi's hot new singing sensation. Malfi's hot new singing sensation will live and die in Malfi, totally unknown to everybody else in the sector.