Expert Handling is an action. 1 single complete action. From "Perform".... to "ship" it is a single action.

During expert handling, it tells you to perform a FREE Barrel Roll action. This action is free (does not count towards the one action during your perform action step). The Barrel Roll inside expert handling is a complete action. Either one (and both) are actions according to the rules, with all rules applying to actions affecting BOTH expert handling, and barrel roll.

To clarify, you cannot do this if you already performed a barrel roll? Because that would perform X2 of the same action?

OK that's what I thought but what about if the ship did not have barrel roll could it still trigger other actions from expert handling, it would have a stress.

This has been asked and answered, ad nauseum, in the rules forum. A change of venue is not going to change the result. Just send it to FFG already, since you're not going to accept anything that anyone says anyway.

to the general public: This ran to 3 pages of Destroyer's denial, despite getting an utterly unanimous response from everyone involved. He's now decided to spam the general forum. he's not looking for an answer, he's looking for HIS answer, so please don't waste your time on this.

There is 71 pages of rules... Links? Search function anywhere? Dont know any background but this seems like a fair question.

These probably won't help but...

Expert Handling is an action. 1 single complete action. From "Perform".... to "ship" it is a single action.

During expert handling, it tells you to perform a FREE Barrel Roll action. This action is free (does not count towards the one action during your perform action step). The Barrel Roll inside expert handling is a complete action. Either one (and both) are actions according to the rules, with all rules applying to actions affecting BOTH expert handling, and barrel roll.

To clarify, you cannot do this if you already performed a barrel roll? Because that would perform X2 of the same action?

That is correct.

You CANNOT perform a "Free X action" if you have already performed said action X in this round.

So, if you Barrel Roll, you cannot then use Daredevil Expert Handling.

If you take an Evade action, you cannot take another Evade action as a free action from Lando, Cracken, Squad Leader, etc...

Edit: Oops, thanks Forgottenlore!

So, if you Barrel Roll, you cannot then use Daredevil.

Let's not confuse things any more than they are.

Expert handling, not daredevil.

Let's not confuse things any more than they are.

Hehe, my bad! I fixed my comment.

This is going to be my last post here.

The rules for this game can be found in two places: the core rulebook and the the FAQ. Understanding the rules requires that you have read both of them fairly thoroughly and that you understand English grammar and vocabulary as they're typically used.

An action is just a package of rules describing a thing a ship can do. Some actions are described in the core rulebook; some are described on reference cards (which are reproduced in the FAQ). There are also some actions that are defined by some other game element--like an upgrade card or a damage card. In every example we have, an action introduced that way is described by the game element that introduces it.

Action--any action--can be interrupted by other things. The FAQ says the following with regard to Push the Limit:

Free actions... can trigger Push the Limit.

When you take this in context, it's a clarification: any action, even a free action, can trigger Push the Limit.

This can result in an action interrupting another effect, causing that effect to finish resolving later.

This means that if the action that triggers Push the Limit happens in the middle of something else, you can "pause" that other thing and do everything Push the Limit tells you to do. (This is also true for Experimental Interface, because its FAQ entry simply says "see Push the Limit").

And that's the entirety of the rule you're looking for; everything else is a (fairly straightforward) application of that rule. An action is a general term for a wrapper around a set of rules, and according to the FAQ, other effects can interrupt an action.

***

Expert Handling is a slightly weird case because it's an action within an action. (There's nothing in the rules that prevents this.) The card header says "Action", and everything else tells you what that action is. That action is the following things, which I've divided into its three sentences for convenience:

(1) Perform a free barrel roll action.

(2) If you do not have the [barrel roll] action icon, receive 1 stress.

(3) You may then remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship.

Any of those things could trigger some other game element. If I had an upgrade that said "when you receive 1 stress, gain 1 evade token", I could interrupt Expert Handling at the end of "step 2". If I had an upgrade that said "when you perform a barrel roll action, you may perform a free boost action", I could interrupt at the end of "step 1". I can interrupt Expert Handling (or any other action) whenever another game element tells me I can.

In the specific case of Push the Limit, the card is triggered (that is, there's an opportunity to use it) "after you perform an action". That means I have a chance to use it after I perform the free barrel roll action allowed by Expert Handling ("step 1"), but before I get the stress token ("step 2"). As long as nothing else interrupts Push the Limit, that means I do everything Push the Limit tells me to do, and then when I'm done doing everything PTL tells me to do I go back to the point where I "paused" Expert Handling and do the rest of the things it tells me to do (that's what "resolve" means, here).

They are not special, they can't be interrupted because they're special.

He didn't mean "They are special and therefore can't be interrupted". He meant "They are not special, and whether they can be interrupted has nothing to do with whether they're special or not"

Beyond that, Vorpal covers it all, and I applaud his efforts to end this ongoing train wreck of a discussion.

Expert Handling is an action. 1 single complete action. From "Perform".... to "ship" it is a single action.

During expert handling, it tells you to perform a FREE Barrel Roll action. This action is free (does not count towards the one action during your perform action step). The Barrel Roll inside expert handling is a complete action. Either one (and both) are actions according to the rules, with all rules applying to actions affecting BOTH expert handling, and barrel roll.

To clarify, you cannot do this if you already performed a barrel roll? Because that would perform X2 of the same action?

That is correct.

You CANNOT perform a "Free X action" if you have already performed said action X in this round.

So, if you Barrel Roll, you cannot then use Daredevil Expert Handling.

If you take an Evade action, you cannot take another Evade action as a free action from Lando, Cracken, Squad Leader, etc...

Edit: Oops, thanks Forgottenlore!

Thanks for the reply, I think a point that is not obviously clear when you first start out is how it differs from spending tokens- and no limit on spending multiple tokens. You "perform action focus" to gain token focus.

This gets somewhat confusing with isard, as you do perform a free evade action to get an evade token which is why you cannot also perform a evade action from the action bar.

Expert Handling is a slightly weird case because it's an action within an action. (There's nothing in the rules that prevents this.) The card header says "Action", and everything else tells you what that action is. That action is the following things, which I've divided into its three sentences for convenience:

(1) Perform a free barrel roll action.

(2) If you do not have the [barrel roll] action icon, receive 1 stress.

(3) You may then remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship.

My reading of the card is that (1) and (2) occur simultaneously so you instantly receive the stress when you perform the barrel roll.

Like you said, syntax does not say ‘after you perform a barrel roll you receive stress’ or ‘then you receive 1 stress token’. It simply says you receive stress if you perform a barrel roll.

I would add I would not say you are 'interrupting' but if you do the qualifiers for the card (ie barrel roll then free boost) then you do the new action as long as you meet the requirements no matter your stress level etc. .

My reading of the card is that (1) and (2) occur simultaneously so you instantly receive the stress when you perform the barrel roll.

(1) Perform a free barrel roll action.

(2) If you do not have the [barrel roll] action icon, receive 1 stress.

Like you said, simple syntax does not say after you perform a barrel roll you receive a stress or then you receive stress so nothing to interrupt here. It simple says you receive stress if you perform a barrel roll.

Your reading is wrong.

The rules and FAQ are clear on this. There is no room for interpretation.

Simply put: Ii you do not agree with what has been repeated for 60 posts now, you are wrong.

My reading of the card is that (1) and (2) occur simultaneously so you instantly receive the stress when you perform the barrel roll.

(1) Perform a free barrel roll action.

(2) If you do not have the [barrel roll] action icon, receive 1 stress.

Like you said, simple syntax does not say after you perform a barrel roll you receive a stress or then you receive stress so nothing to interrupt here. It simple says you receive stress if you perform a barrel roll.

Your reading is wrong.

The rules and FAQ are clear on this. There is no room for interpretation.

Simply put: Ii you do not agree with what has been repeated for 60 posts now, you are wrong.

OK can you state where I am reading wrong?

Only thing I read in the FAQ for Expert Handling is "“Action: Perform a free barrel roll action. If you do not have the action icon, receive 1 stress token. You may then remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship.”"

Not sure how you justify stress occurs at a later point of time. Simply states you do barrel roll you get a stress if not on action bar. No timing component vocab (e.g. then, next, after) . Just follow simple language as posted earlier.

Not sure how you justify stress occurs at a later point of time. Simply states you do barrel roll you get a stress if not on action bar. No timing component vocab (e.g. then, next, after) . Just follow simple language as posted earlier.

Lacking specific timing text, things occur in the order they appear.

The timing components you mention (then and after - as far as I know, 'next' is never used in X-wing) have different meanings. "After" is an element of trigger timing, but doesn't have any affect on resolution. "Then" is used as a timing element, but it's also a conditional that says "Only do this if you did the previous". Consider Push the Limit - it always triggers when you take an action. "Then, gain a stress" is what keeps you from getting stress for every action, whether you take the free action or not.

Generally, though, steps occur one at a time in the order they appear. Each element can trigger other effects as it's resolved.

Not sure how you justify stress occurs at a later point of time. Simply states you do barrel roll you get a stress if not on action bar. No timing component vocab (e.g. then, next, after) . Just follow simple language as posted earlier.

Lacking specific timing text, things occur in the order they appear.

Bingo.

And, in case someone was going to ask...

No, there is nothing in the rules that explicitly states that "things happen in the order they appear."

It's just the way english, and most other languages, work.

Not sure how you justify stress occurs at a later point of time. Simply states you do barrel roll you get a stress if not on action bar. No timing component vocab (e.g. then, next, after) . Just follow simple language as posted earlier.

Lacking specific timing text, things occur in the order they appear.

The timing components you mention (then and after - as far as I know, 'next' is never used in X-wing) have different meanings. "After" is an element of trigger timing, but doesn't have any affect on resolution. "Then" is used as a timing element, but it's also a conditional that says "Only do this if you did the previous". Consider Push the Limit - it always triggers when you take an action. "Then, gain a stress" is what keeps you from getting stress for every action, whether you take the free action or not.

Generally, though, steps occur one at a time in the order they appear. Each element can trigger other effects as it's resolved.

Right, which is why I posted #61, 3 posts above but you said that is wrong.

It makes no sense not go in order how things appear like you said. Expert handling triggers PTL etc.

I just want to CORRECT the earlier timing table that you just cant say, "I'll check for stress at the end just because and resolve it later". The way it is written, it happens WITH the barrel roll and no indication that it does not. Like you said resolve the card as it appears. Notice, closely how I explicitly stated this does not necessarily affect other events- like PTL.

The way it is written, it happens WITH the barrel roll and no indication that it does not.

But it actually doesn't. Here's the text from the card.

Action: Perform a free barrel roll action. If you do not have the action icon, receive 1 stress token.

The part about receiving a stress token is separate from the barrel roll action part, grammatically speaking. So it doesn't happen with the barrel roll action, it happen after the barrel roll.

I just want to CORRECT the earlier timing table that you just cant say, "I'll check for stress at the end just because and resolve it later". The way it is written, it happens WITH the barrel roll and no indication that it does not.

Nobody is "just saying" anything. You perform each step as they're listed. If a step triggers another effect, you resolve that effect immediately, then continue on. The indication that the stress doesn't happen with the barrel roll is that it is a separate sentence.

Notice, closely how I explicitly stated this does not necessarily affect other events- like PTL.

I would add I would not say you are 'interrupting' but if you do the qualifiers for the card (ie barrel roll then free boost) then you do the new action as long as you meet the requirements no matter your stress level etc. .

This is also wrong. Whenever you resolve an effect, you deal with the current game state, and if something prohibits you from performing the ability, then you can't do it. So if it works as you suggest - Expert Handling's barrel roll and stress are simultaneous - then you have the stress when you take the PtL action, which prevents you from performing the action.

The way it is written, it happens WITH the barrel roll and no indication that it does not.

But it actually doesn't. Here's the text from the card.

Action: Perform a free barrel roll action. If you do not have the action icon, receive 1 stress token.

The part about receiving a stress token is separate from the barrel roll action part, grammatically speaking. So it doesn't happen with the barrel roll action, it happen after the barrel roll.

You sure? Read it again.

You sure?

Yes I am, considering you have two separate sentences, that's pretty much all the evidence I need that they don't happen with each other.

You perform a barrel roll.

You gain a stress token if you don't have the barrel roll action on your action bar.

Two completely separate things based on the rules of english grammar.

Right, which is why I posted #61, 3 posts above but you said that is wrong.

It makes no sense not go in order how things appear like you said. Expert handling triggers PTL etc.

I just want to CORRECT the earlier timing table that you just cant say, "I'll check for stress at the end just because and resolve it later". The way it is written, it happens WITH the barrel roll and no indication that it does not. Like you said resolve the card as it appears. Notice, closely how I explicitly stated this does not necessarily affect other events- like PTL.

If I'm understanding you correctly, your saying this is how Expert Handling, Push the Limit and Experimental Interface should interact:

• I declare I am using the Expert Handling action.
• I perform a free Barrel Roll action
• I cannot trigger Experimental Interface or Push the Limit here since 2 and 4 are simultaneous.
• I receive a stress token if I don't have the [bR] action.
• I could trigger Experimental Interface or Push the Limit, but I'm stressed so I can't.
• I may remove an enemy TL from my ship.
• I could trigger Experimental Interface or Push the Limit, but I'm stressed so I can't.

If this is not what you are saying, please describe, step by step, how you see the interaction of Expert Handling and Push the Limit or Experimental Interface.

However, if you refer to the FAQ, it explicitly state this is not the correct way these cards interact:

Free actions, such as a free action granted from Squad Leader, can trigger Push the Limit. This can result in an action interrupting another effect, causing that effect to finish resolving later. For example, if a ship performs a free barrel roll action granted by Expert Handling, it could use that action as a trigger for Push the Limit. After Push the Limit resolves, Expert Handling finishes resolving.

Why would the FAQ take the time to specifically mention that the free Barrel Roll action granted by Expert Handling can be used to trigger Push the Limit, if the stress from the Barrel Roll would prevent you from performing an action with Push the Limit?!?!??

You sure?

Yes I am, considering you have two separate sentences, that's pretty much all the evidence I need that they don't happen with each other.

You perform a barrel roll.

You gain a stress token if you don't have the barrel roll action on your action bar.

Two completely separate things based on the rules of english grammar.

Well no, "if" is a conditional clause for prior statement. That is exactly opposite of 2 completely separate things. The first part only get meaning from the clause.

You sure?

Yes I am, considering you have two separate sentences, that's pretty much all the evidence I need that they don't happen with each other.

You perform a barrel roll.

You gain a stress token if you don't have the barrel roll action on your action bar.

Two completely separate things based on the rules of english grammar.

Think of it as a math or calculus qualifier.

Well no, "if" is a conditional clause for prior statement. That is exactly opposite of 2 completely separate things. The first part only get meaning from the clause.

The Expert Handling card features 3 sentences:

1. Perform a free barrel roll action.
2. If you do not have the [bR] action icon, receive 1 stress token.
3. You may then remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship.

Well no, "if" is a conditional clause for prior statement. That is exactly opposite of 2 completely separate things.

You have two steps in a process, not a series of simultaneous events. That's why there is a period between them, rather than a comma.

Do this.

Check to see if this is true, then do that.

Those things do not happen simultaneously, they are discrete steps that at the end of each step have the possibility of triggering other events.