Right, which is why I posted #61, 3 posts above but you said that is wrong.

It makes no sense not go in order how things appear like you said. Expert handling triggers PTL etc.

I just want to CORRECT the earlier timing table that you just cant say, "I'll check for stress at the end just because and resolve it later". The way it is written, it happens WITH the barrel roll and no indication that it does not. Like you said resolve the card as it appears. Notice, closely how I explicitly stated this does not necessarily affect other events- like PTL.

If I'm understanding you correctly, your saying this is how Expert Handling, Push the Limit and Experimental Interface should interact:

• I declare I am using the Expert Handling action.
• I perform a free Barrel Roll action
• I cannot trigger Experimental Interface or Push the Limit here since 2 and 4 are simultaneous.
• I receive a stress token if I don't have the [bR] action.
• I could trigger Experimental Interface or Push the Limit, but I'm stressed so I can't.
• I may remove an enemy TL from my ship.
• I could trigger Experimental Interface or Push the Limit, but I'm stressed so I can't.

If this is not what you are saying, please describe, step by step, how you see the interaction of Expert Handling and Push the Limit or Experimental Interface.

However, if you refer to the FAQ, it explicitly state this is not the correct way these cards interact:

Free actions, such as a free action granted from Squad Leader, can trigger Push the Limit. This can result in an action interrupting another effect, causing that effect to finish resolving later. For example, if a ship performs a free barrel roll action granted by Expert Handling, it could use that action as a trigger for Push the Limit. After Push the Limit resolves, Expert Handling finishes resolving.

Why would the FAQ take the time to specifically mention that the free Barrel Roll action granted by Expert Handling can be used to trigger Push the Limit, if the stress from the Barrel Roll would prevent you from performing an action with Push the Limit?!?!??

Not sure why PTL or EI would be a problem. Simply reading the card simply say after you perform an action... Doesnt say you need to be unstressed. You need to be unstressed to perform the initial action. Is that what you are trying to say?

Simply reading the card simply say after you perform an action... Doesnt say you need to be unstressed.

Yes you do, because you can not perform any action if you are stressed.

Simply reading the card simply say after you perform an action... Doesnt say you need to be unstressed.

Yes you do, because you can not perform any action if you are stressed.

Like people said earlier just read the card. EI states after you perform an action do this. Simple

Not sure why PTL or EI would be a problem. Simply reading the card simply say after you perform an action... Doesnt say you need to be unstressed. You need to be unstressed to perform the initial action. Is that what you are trying to say?

Push the Limit reads:

Hey even the FAQ exactly addressed the issue!

"Push the Limit Free actions, such as a free action granted from Squad Leader, can trigger Push the Limit. This can result in an action interrupting another effect, causing that effect to finish resolving later. For example, if a ship performs a free barrel roll action granted by Expert Handling, it could use that action as a trigger for Push the Limit. After Push the Limit resolves, Expert Handling finishes resolving."

Straight from the FAQ like everyone said.

So once you decide to do the expert handling action you already triggered the PTL EI action just be triggering EH.

Anyone else feeling like we stumbled into a Twilight Zone episode here?

Its the reason I stay away from rule debates if Im not in close proximity to hit the person. (Or atleast be visibly disgruntled )

Anyone else feeling like we stumbled into a Twilight Zone episode here?

I honestly can't tell is this guy just has a massive lack of understanding of how the rules work... or is trolling.

Because trying to say you can perform actions with PtL or EI while stressed, has to mean one or the other, no one with even a basic understanding of the rules could make that claim and be serious.

As long as you started stressless the action interrupt layed out in the FAQ states you could PtL and EI you just end up with two stress after it all resolves.

So once you decide to do the expert handling action you already triggered the PTL EI action just be triggering EH.

I don't know how to react to this. Your sentence makes no sens.

Maybe I need to read it slowly, part by part?

"once you decide to do the expert handling action"

Ok, so far so good.

"you already triggered the PTL EI action"

And I'm lost.

"just be triggering EH."

I just be confused.

Would you care to rephrase that?

When I try to read your sentence I already am bewildered and just be finding it confusing.

How you sentence not make sens puzzles I.

As long as you started stressless

But that's not what Amraam01 is saying. Unless I completely misunderstand what is meant by...

simply reading the card simply say after you perform an action... Doesnt say you need to be unstressed.

Maybe English isn't Amraam01's native language, which can cause the kind of confusing statements we're seeing.

Anyone else feeling like we stumbled into a Twilight Zone episode here?

I honestly can't tell is this guy just has a massive lack of understanding of how the rules work... or is trolling.

Because trying to say you can perform actions with PtL or EI while stressed, has to mean one or the other, no one with even a basic understanding of the rules could make that claim and be serious.

Trolling? If anything you are trolling since you apparently dont want to understand and debate the english word "if". And apparently I dont speak English. Nice troll let not discuss issues that maybe some are interesting in discussing instead of personal attacks. You have not added anything but others can help me understand this. So your posts mean nothing to me.

As long as you started stressless the action interrupt layed out in the FAQ states you could PtL and EI you just end up with two stress after it all resolves.

Exactly what I am saying some are not getting that.

If you are truly being honest and actually don't understand the rules, please write out exactly, as a step by step process, how Expert Handling and Push the Limit/Experimental Interface interact.

When exactly, can I trigger Push the Limit/Experimental Interface?

When do I get the stress from Expert Handling?

When do I get the stress from Push the Limit/Experimental Interface?

Until then, I'm going to assume you are being deliberately obtuse.

You have not added anything but others can help me understand this.

Considering how pretty much everyone in this thread other than you are saying the same thing... I don't know if anyone can help you understand this.

But I'll try one more time.

You can perform a free action with Push the Limits and/or Experimental Interface, because both those cards have the same trigger as gaining a stress does. Namely the <after performing an action> trigger.

Since you get to decide the order in which to carry out effects with the same trigger, you can decide to effectively put the stress from Expert Handling (if you get one) on hold, while you perform a free action with PtL. Since you have performed an action with PtL the <after you have performed an action> trigger is there again, which lets you use EI. You again put the stress on hold until after you finish processing EI.

At which point you will get 2 or 3 stress tokens, depending on if EH causes you to get one or not.

You can not however perform an action with PtL or EI if you are already stressed. This is part of the standard rules and does not need to be stated anywhere. You can never perform an action if stressed, unless there is some effect that says otherwise, like it does on Tycho.

So once you decide to do the expert handling action you already triggered the PTL EI action just be triggering EH.

I don't know how to react to this. Your sentence makes no sens.

Maybe I need to read it slowly, part by part?

"once you decide to do the expert handling action"

Ok, so far so good.

"you already triggered the PTL EI action"

And I'm lost.

"just be triggering EH."

I just be confused.

Would you care to rephrase that?

When I try to read your sentence I already am bewildered and just be finding it confusing.

How you sentence not make sens puzzles I.

I suppose what I mean is that stress is not a factor here, and in particular what the FAQ points out. As long as you meet the requirements of lets say Push the limit you get to perform Push the limit. Essentially going back to the timing work flow,

State: no stress, no barrel roll action on action bar

1a) Expert handling triggered

1b) PTL or EI triggered

1c) Stress triggered

1d) +/- removal of target lock

2) Since PTL or EI ALREADY triggered, may perform action

However, it seems the best reading of this would be that these 1a-d and 2 do happen to occur simultaneously and you can choose the order of resolution which is why stress gained with expert handling is irrelevant.

That should satisfy everyone.

and you can choose the order of resolution which is why stress gained with expert handling is irrelevant.

Ok so it seems none of us understood what you were trying to say, because it does seem you have it mostly right.

But this line here is not really true. The stress from EH isn't irrelevant, because if you decided for some reason to take the stress from it, you can no longer perform a free action from PtL.

Now since it's your choice when that happens, it's a mostly academic statement, but per the rules the stress is not actually irrelevant but subject to how the player decides to process things.

I suppose what I mean is that stress is not a factor here, and in particular what the FAQ points out. As long as you meet the requirements of lets say Push the limit you get to perform Push the limit. Essentially going back to the timing work flow,

State: no stress, no barrel roll action on action bar

1a) Expert handling triggered

1b) PTL or EI triggered

1c) Stress triggered

1d) +/- removal of target lock

2) Since PTL or EI ALREADY triggered, may perform action

However, it seems the best reading of this would be that these 1a-d and 2 do happen to occur simultaneously and you can choose the order of resolution which is why stress gained with expert handling is irrelevant.

That should satisfy everyone.

Few problems:

• PTL and EI trigger AFTER you perform an action, not when you declare you're doing an action.
• 2) is not allowed, since you cannot perform an action after having received the stress in 1c).

Also, where is your free Barrel Roll in there?

• PTL and EI trigger AFTER you perform an action, not when you declare you're doing an action.
• 2) is not allowed, since you cannot perform an action after having received the stress in 1c).

Well for your first point, you are correct but that may be a matter of semantics... I'm assuming Amraam01 meant that the barrel roll action from EH was used at 1a.

For 2, yes you're right, you take your free action from PtL or EI at 1b, it's not simply triggered and then used latter.

It is a nested procedure:

State: You are unstressed and do not have barrel roll in your action bar. You just completed a maneuver without bumping or moving over an asteroid.

>1) You use your "Perform Action" step to use "Expert Handling"

>>1a) You perform a free barrel roll action. This may trigger "Push the Limit."

>>>1b) Optional "Push the Limit": You may perform an action from your action bar. Receive a stress token.

>2) Remove a target lock from your ship.

>3) Receive a stress token.

State: You have two stress tokens. You performed a barrel roll and another action.

• PTL and EI trigger AFTER you perform an action, not when you declare you're doing an action.
• 2) is not allowed, since you cannot perform an action after having received the stress in 1c).

Well for your first point, you are correct but that may be a matter of semantics... I'm assuming Amraam01 meant that the barrel roll action from EH was used at 1a.

For 2, yes you're right, you take your free action from PtL or EI at 1b, it's not simply triggered and then used latter.

Basically, all he has to do is put his step 2 right after 1b.

And add a 2b step "Receive stress from PTL".

With these changes...

• 1a) Expert handling triggered
• 1b) PTL or EI triggered
• 2a) Since PTL or EI triggered, may perform action
• 2b) Stress from PTL or EI
• 1c) Stress triggered from Expert Handling
• 1d) +/- removal of target lock

State: 2 stress tokens

If Amraam01 agrees with this, then I don't understand why we've been discussing this for dozens of posts...

State: no stress, no barrel roll action on action bar

1a) Expert handling triggered

1b) PTL or EI triggered

1c) Stress triggered

1d) +/- removal of target lock

2) Since PTL or EI ALREADY triggered, may perform action

This is not correct, on several points. I'm not going to enumerate them, because it's honestly a mess to try and do so, but here's the proper flow. I'm using PtL through here, but EI would do the same

- Trigger Expert Handling

--- Perform barrel roll action

------ Trigger PtL (from after barrel roll action)

--------- Perform focus

--------- Gain 1 stress

------ PtL finishes resolving

--- Gain one stress (from Expert Handing conditional)

--- Remove target lock

- Expert Handling finishes resolving

--- Trigger PtL (from after Expert Handling)

------ Can't perform actions because of stress, no action (unless you're Tycho)

Edit: Also, worth noting that PtL has a once-per-round limit. So you could only do it after Expert Handling if you didn't do it from the barrel roll. Or, alternately, combine with Experimental Interface and trigger one from each action (Expert Handling and Barrel Roll), or both from the same.

I think that covers all the possibles.

If Amraam01 agrees with this, then I don't understand why we've been discussing this for dozens of posts...

Because I don't think he really understands how it works exactly and was making assumptions that don't fit with the rules.

This is not correct, on several points.

It's not the correct process, but it is the correct concept more or less. Process matters a lot, but he's not quite as far off the mark as I thought he was.

It's not the correct process, but it is the correct concept more or less. Process matters a lot, but he's not quite as far off the mark as I thought he was.

I think it's more off than that - he was triggering PtL immediately on the action (rather than after) but holding the free action until Expert Handling had completely resolved, basically ignoring the nesting, and he didn't seem to understand that PtL could be triggered off either action.

Edit: I think ignoring the nesting is why he thought you could to PtL even when stressed, because he was triggering it before the stress landing, but resolving it after (because no nesting) without re-checking the conditions. I THINK that's Magic rules... And wrong on a lot of levels for X-wing, but definitely the gift that keeps on giving.

Although I'll freely grant at this point in this crazy discussion it's hard to tell what he understands and what he doesn't.

Although I'll freely grant at this point in this crazy discussion it's hard to tell what he understands and what he doesn't.

True, I took it based on that post that he'd come to the same spot as everyone else would... Even if he didn't get there by quite the correct order.