OK interesting godofcheese then does that mean the whole text after action cannot be an "action" definition.

Expert handling is an action, but so is the free barrel roll within that action. Simple as that.

This has been asked and answered, ad nauseum, in the rules forum. A change of venue is not going to change the result. Just send it to FFG already, since you're not going to accept anything that anyone says anyway.

to the general public: This ran to 3 pages of Destroyer's denial, despite getting an utterly unanimous response from everyone involved. He's now decided to spam the general forum. he's not looking for an answer, he's looking for HIS answer, so please don't waste your time on this.

I fail to see what answer he's looking for?

I fail to see what answer he's looking for?

He seems to be trying to justify the position that because the Expert Handling action will give you a stress token that you cannot trigger things like Push the Limit or Experimental Interface off of the Free Barrel Roll action within Expert Handling.

I fail to see what answer he's looking for?

He seems to be trying to justify the position that because the Expert Handling action will give you a stress token that you cannot trigger things like Push the Limit or Experimental Interface off of the Free Barrel Roll action within Expert Handling.

Still the FAQ for PTL allows you to interrupt actions hence Performing Expert Handling Doing a barrel Roll then doing a focus action then receiving a stress from EH without the Barrel Roll in action bar and then receiving an additional stress from PTL.

Still I have seen some people get confused over the "free action" for Expert Handling asking if that mean they can do an additional action. I would say it is written "free" because the action is already spent on performing Expert Handling in order to do the barrel roll it would have to be free or given by another effect.

Still I have seen some people get confused over the "free action" for Expert Handling asking if that mean they can do an additional action. I would say it is written "free" because the action is already spent on performing Expert Handling in order to do the barrel roll it would have to be free or given by another effect.

That is correct.

I fail to see what answer he's looking for?

He seems to be trying to justify the position that because the Expert Handling action will give you a stress token that you cannot trigger things like Push the Limit or Experimental Interface off of the Free Barrel Roll action within Expert Handling.

Dear god, I just read through the thread in the Rules forum...

Dear god, I just read through the thread in the Rules forum...

Now you got it.

The use of "Free Action" was a bad cal on FFG's part, in my opinion. The same phrase is used commonly in other games to classify an action that does not count towards your performed actions, whereas FFG's use is to classify something bracketed within a standard Action or other game effect.

The use of "Free Action" was a bad cal on FFG's part, in my opinion. The same phrase is used commonly in other games to classify an action that does not count towards your performed actions, whereas FFG's use is to classify something bracketed within a standard Action or other game effect.

Which is what FFG uses "free action" for, no? An action that doesn't count as the standard action you're allowed to perform during the "perform action" step.

The use of "Free Action" was a bad cal on FFG's part, in my opinion. The same phrase is used commonly in other games to classify an action that does not count towards your performed actions, whereas FFG's use is to classify something bracketed within a standard Action or other game effect.

Which is what FFG uses "free action" for, no? An action that doesn't count as the standard action you're allowed to perform during the "perform action" step.

Yes and No, because it does count in part towards your standard actions because you can perform the same action twice in a round. Turr can't boost as his action and then boost after he shoots, and you and I know the distinction, but it's not always clear to new players (especially if they don't know about the FAQ).

There's just a lot of subtleties in the wording that takes some getting use to, like "At range 2" and "Within range 2", Perform/Spend/Assign an action/token. I started during wave 2 so I'm use to the lingo, but I'd hate to be a new player trying to get a handle on all of it now.

but it's not always clear to new players (especially if they don't know about the FAQ).

Which is something I have never understood. This is about the easiest game to understand I have come across since Chutes and Ladders.

but it's not always clear to new players (especially if they don't know about the FAQ).

Which is something I have never understood. This is about the easiest game to understand I have come across since Chutes and Ladders.

Chutes and Ladders technically isn't a *Game*, as there is no agency of the players. Similarly, the card game War.

Amusingly, with both of them, that's intentional.

Chutes and Ladders technically isn't a *Game*, as there is no agency of the players.

True. Though I thought I remembered a single, weird instance where there was an actual choice to be made in Ch&L, and that made it vastly superior to Candyland to my child mind. (yes, I was analyzing game mechanics since I was that young)

There's just a lot of subtleties in the wording that takes some getting use to, like "At range 2" and "Within range 2", Perform/Spend/Assign an action/token. I started during wave 2 so I'm use to the lingo, but I'd hate to be a new player trying to get a handle on all of it now.

Care to point out which cards make a distinction between "at range 2" and "within range 2" ?

I can't seem to find any reference to "within range 2" off hand?

This thread is making my brain hurt.

Care to point out which cards make a distinction between "at range 2" and "within range 2" ?

I can't seem to find any reference to "within range 2" off hand?

I believe that the only actual use of "within" at the moment comes from the deployment rules.

There's just a lot of subtleties in the wording that takes some getting use to, like "At range 2" and "Within range 2", Perform/Spend/Assign an action/token. I started during wave 2 so I'm use to the lingo, but I'd hate to be a new player trying to get a handle on all of it now.

Care to point out which cards make a distinction between "at range 2" and "within range 2" ?

I can't seem to find any reference to "within range 2" off hand?

I was mainly referring to the "At" vs "Within" clarification in the FAQ. Range 2 was more of an example of how it would be worded, but any turret upgrade is within range 1-2, and tactician is at range 2, I think that could be easily misunderstood by a new player. And as Buhallin mentions, there's the deployment rules, and I think it might be in some of the missions, but I'm not going to check now.

I was mainly referring to the "At" vs "Within" clarification in the FAQ. Range 2 was more of an example of how it would be worded, but any turret upgrade is within range 1-2, and tactician is at range 2, I think that could be easily misunderstood by a new player. And as Buhallin mentions, there's the deployment rules, and I think it might be in some of the missions, but I'm not going to check now.

Um... What?

Are you saying that I can't shoot someone with an Ion Cannon Turret or Blaster Turret if part of the ship is outside of range 2?

That can't be right.

I was mainly referring to the "At" vs "Within" clarification in the FAQ. Range 2 was more of an example of how it would be worded, but any turret upgrade is within range 1-2, and tactician is at range 2, I think that could be easily misunderstood by a new player. And as Buhallin mentions, there's the deployment rules, and I think it might be in some of the missions, but I'm not going to check now.

Um... What?

Are you saying that I can't shoot someone with an Ion Cannon Turret or Blaster Turret if part of the ship is outside of range 2?

That can't be right.

No: the smaller of the two ranges is what counts.If it overlaps the Range 2-3 border, a Turret would be able to shoot at the ship, but a Single Turbolaser would not.

I was mainly referring to the "At" vs "Within" clarification in the FAQ. Range 2 was more of an example of how it would be worded, but any turret upgrade is within range 1-2, and tactician is at range 2, I think that could be easily misunderstood by a new player. And as Buhallin mentions, there's the deployment rules, and I think it might be in some of the missions, but I'm not going to check now.

Um... What?

Are you saying that I can't shoot someone with an Ion Cannon Turret or Blaster Turret if part of the ship is outside of range 2?

That can't be right.

No: the smaller of the two ranges is what counts.If it overlaps the Range 2-3 border, a Turret would be able to shoot at the ship, but a Single Turbolaser would not.

Yes, of course.

I'm just not understanding what Radarman5 meant when he said "any turret upgrade is within range 1-2, and tactician is at range 2".

I was mainly referring to the "At" vs "Within" clarification in the FAQ. Range 2 was more of an example of how it would be worded, but any turret upgrade is within range 1-2, and tactician is at range 2, I think that could be easily misunderstood by a new player. And as Buhallin mentions, there's the deployment rules, and I think it might be in some of the missions, but I'm not going to check now.

Um... What?

Are you saying that I can't shoot someone with an Ion Cannon Turret or Blaster Turret if part of the ship is outside of range 2?

That can't be right.

Um... Sorry.

That was an incorrect example I gave. A better one would be the Protect Action in Mission 1 (and a few other missions use simmilar "Within range X" rules. Anyway, you know the FAQ entry I'm refering to, and my point was that some of the subleties in wording aren't immediatly apparent if you're new to the game. I GM a couple rpgs (eote, and d&d gamma world) and I run into the same thing with players, especially those who are new to gaming or who've only played older rpgs that didn't use this kind of terminology.

OK to start with why do my questions upset people so much? All I am doing to trying to understand the rules a bit better and I'm not trying to justify anything.

But now I am confused about these answers, could be I just am easy to confuse.

OK interesting godofcheese then does that mean the whole text after action cannot be an "action" definition.

On a card with the "Action" header, everything that follows that header is an action.

Actions can be interrupted, if something within the action acts as a trigger for another effect.

I'm (still) not sure where your confusion on these points is coming from.

OK interesting godofcheese then does that mean the whole text after action cannot be an "action" definition.

Expert handling is an action, but so is the free barrel roll within that action. Simple as that.

So just to confirm there are actions within actions. And these special actions can be interrupted. Does that mean there is a choice to trigger before an action or in the middle somewhere or after its complete, but only on these special actions. I guess a good example would be with daredevil. Does that mean the white maneuver is also an action with that action, I really am not sure about this one. And what about fleet officer is there an action within this action.

OK to start with why do my questions upset people so much?

Because we've answered this question about 2 dozen times, have even provided you the quote from the FAQ, yet you keep asking for the answer over and over again.

So just to confirm there are actions within actions.

Yes, when the card calls it an action it's an action, like any other action in the game.

And these special actions can be interrupted.

They are not special, they can't be interrupted because they're special. They are simply a trigger for something else.

Anytime you perform an action, there is an <after action> trigger that can be used for cards like Push the Limit or Experimental Interface. There is nothing special about them, it's not because it's an action inside another action.

It's because you performed an action, so there is quite naturally an <after action> trigger.

Ok now I am even more confused

OK interesting godofcheese then does that mean the whole text after action cannot be an "action" definition.

On a card with the "Action" header, everything that follows that header is an action.

Actions can be interrupted, if something within the action acts as a trigger for another effect.

I'm (still) not sure where your confusion on these points is coming from.

So your saying Vorpal Sword is wrong and it cant be interrupted. And also as a few others have said that all the text on action cards is an action you said it cant be interrupted. So that means it all of the text must be completed.

A lot of people keep saying that it has been answered but now there is a lot of contradiction.

So your saying Vorpal Sword is wrong and it cant be interrupted.

I'm not sure if you just aren't reading what people are saying or what...

And also as a few others have said that all the text on action cards is an action you said it cant be interrupted

No one has said such a thing.

You must do everything the card says, unless it's optional.

That is not the same thing as saying you can't interrupt the process the card tells you to follow.

Anytime you perform an action, there is an <after performing an action> trigger. You performed an action, so there is quite naturally an <after performing an action> stage.

That can be used to trigger any card that says "after performing an action" on it. Which is the same timing that you get a stress token.

That is why you can interrupt an action, because you get to decide which order to process in.