As someone who doesn't fly fat turrets or go out of his way to go to ps 10 just to deal with the Phantom, I need ideas on how to kill buzzsaw Echo/buzzsaw Whisper. In a timed match I will kill the miniswarm or Decimator accompanying the Phantom and hope to win on time. Many of these timed matches that I win would be lost if they were played out to conclusion, as 5 ties don't really have the capability to kill a Phantom.

I'm told to block decloaks and fly unpredictably and predict where the Phantom goes, but it has so many options for manuevers. I have to spend so many ships' movements to block a Phantom in that I can't bring any significant amount of firepower to bear on it. Even if I do, then it just doesn't decloak and tanks up for next round.

Also, even if I do manage to get any shots on it, they do nothing. Once my opponent parked his Whisper infront of my 6 Howl boosted ties and a generic phantom of my own. I had 3 range one shots with Acadamies. He focused, fired, got a free cloak and another free focus token. My own generic phantom was at range 2 and missed. Then all my tie fighters proceeded to attack one by one. After my full on blast Whisper was down a single shield, and I was getting decent rolls too.

What am I supposed to do when it takes a broadside from a TIE Swarm to plink a single shield off the thing?

BSP+ Outmaneuver mini-Swarm? If the angle is right it's as difficult at attacking any of the other TIE variants with exception of the Bomber. Of course the Phantom would be striking back with twice the attack value. So hope it doesn't plink 1 TIE a turn.

Tough one. Keep your swarm wide like 3 tie wide to had a wider arc and not to fly too close to a phantom. Stay range 2-3. Fly slowly and try to anticipate where it might go.

Swarm's best way of shutting down the Phantom?
Block it

Swarm's best way of shutting down the Phantom?

Block it

If It decloaks and then gets bumped on its move, it will still fire first with its 5 dice gunner + FCS + free cloak + free focus shenanigans. It getting denied its action after moving does not matter.

What am I supposed to do when it takes a broadside from a TIE Swarm to plink a single shield off the thing?

Fire another one. The green dice will fail eventually.

Swarm's best way of shutting down the Phantom?

Block it

If It decloaks and then gets bumped on its move, it will still fire first with its 5 dice gunner + FCS + free cloak + free focus shenanigans. It getting denied it's action after moving does not matter.

Not the the movement. Park your ships in its decloak positions. If whisper can't shoot she is really expensive.

I feel exactly the same way on this issue as the original poster. As long as the Phantom makes no blatant mistakes, it is nearly impossible to damage the Phantom. In a timed match, the only hope is to kill whatever accompanies the Phantom and survive with enough TIEs left over to win, blocking the Phantom to slow it down.

I've concluded that there's pretty much nothing to do but the above strategy.

What am I supposed to do when it takes a broadside from a TIE Swarm to plink a single shield off the thing?

Fire another one. The green dice will fail eventually.

Maybe with no other opponents and a significant supply of healthy TIE fighters. It is extremely unlikely that any TIE shot will do damage to 4 dice with a focus and there's almost no way the phantom will allow itself to be placed in front of a full swarm's arc of fire. In a timed match, it is futile to attempt pot shots to take down the Phantom, and any attempt to trap it will be easily countered by a smart player by attacking hard with the other element of his list, usually TIEs or a Deci.

Swarm's best way of shutting down the Phantom?
Block it

Yeah, it shuts down the Phantom and it does work pretty well but it does not kill the Phantom or even phase it. If you are already ahead in points and in a timed match then this is a viable strategy. The trouble is getting there with a buzzsaw Phantom on your tail. The player has 4 options or more just in the activation phase to edit his maneuver, making predicting his maneuver useless without also accounting for 3 of the possible decloack/movement options. With 3 ships spent doing so, the remainder (likely 2 ships, 3 if lucky assuming howlrunner 7 tie swarm) will have next to no chance of actually doing damage to the cloaked Phantom.

In both situations I talked about timed matches which is what the tournament scene is about. Unfortunately, there is almost no hope in an untimed match where the Phantom player may play as cautiously as possible.

Swarm's best way of shutting down the Phantom?

Block it

If It decloaks and then gets bumped on its move, it will still fire first with its 5 dice gunner + FCS + free cloak + free focus shenanigans. It getting denied it's action after moving does not matter.

You're right, their action economy is absurd, so denying them one focus is typically irrelevant. You don't block the maneuver. You surround them or bait them into the rocks to block their decloaks. Adding a stress effect in your list also helps. Therefore, his options are more limited, he is more predictable, and you can guarantee maintaining arc next turn. Obviously a list is more than just a phantom, but the phantom specifically can only pop one ship a turn, at maximum. Block him so his decloaks are limited, and you can get multiple shots against him. Even if your seven TIEs only chip one hit a turn, you can keep chipping as long as you keep him in arc.

http://teamcovenant.com/hothie/2014/10/05/the-death-blossom/

The death blossom

What am I supposed to do when it takes a broadside from a TIE Swarm to plink a single shield off the thing?

Fire another one. The green dice will fail eventually.

Maybe with no other opponents and a significant supply of healthy TIE fighters. It is extremely unlikely that any TIE shot will do damage to 4 dice with a focus and there's almost no way the phantom will allow itself to be placed in front of a full swarm's arc of fire. In a timed match, it is futile to attempt pot shots to take down the Phantom, and any attempt to trap it will be easily countered by a smart player by attacking hard with the other element of his list, usually TIEs or a Deci.

So what do we do instead? I agree that the matchup is not brilliant, but that's irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is what to do when you're flying the swarm and have encountered a Phantom. We must deal with it, and the only real way to do that is to shoot the **** thing until it blows up and hope you have enough ships left over to take on the other half of the list afterwards. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Swarm's best way of shutting down the Phantom?

Block it

If It decloaks and then gets bumped on its move, it will still fire first with its 5 dice gunner + FCS + free cloak + free focus shenanigans. It getting denied it's action after moving does not matter.

Not the the movement. Park your ships in its decloak positions. If whisper can't shoot she is really expensive.

By the time I've blocked all the decloaks I've spent at least 3 ships doing so. These 3 ships likely cannot fire because in order to get into position to block the Phantom's decloaks they might have to face away from it. The Phantom is now blocked so it just doesn't decloak. I have a handful of shots on it, which don't do anything.

Next turn it decloaks forward followed by a hard 1 turn manuever and now my formation is super broken up and I won't be able to repeat the blocking. Meanwhile it posesses the capability to kill a TIE a turn pretty much.

Sorry for the double post.

BSP+ Outmaneuver mini-Swarm? If the angle is right it's as difficult at attacking any of the other TIE variants with exception of the Bomber. Of course the Phantom would be striking back with twice the attack value. So hope it doesn't plink 1 TIE a turn.

I cannot stomach a 17 point Tie (howlrunner and throwing in mauler or backstabber every once and a while is fine). A tie swarm with only 5-6 ties without howl is just out of the question. I lose one and I'm at roughly 50% of the effectiveness of the 8 tie/Z or 7 howl swarm. Against a Phantom Decimator list I'm losing a TIE a turn, done in 5 rounds of firing.

http://teamcovenant.com/hothie/2014/10/05/the-death-blossom/


The death blossom

I've read that article. Spreading out your fire (and therefore wasting arcs) with a bunch of 2 attack ships doesn't really work against something with 4 agility. Let's say 3 academies have an arc on it. Phantom kills one, the second fires a hit and a blank which gets blocked, the other scores 2 hits and is also evaded. Neat, I've just spent the manuevers of 7 ships to do that.

BSP + Outmaneuver (x3)

AP (x4)

comes to 99 pts.

Not saying you're wrong with your assessment of 8-7 TIEs + Howl is a stronger attacking formation.

But if there's a style of play you prefer you may need to make concessions in either Fielding Tactics or Building Tactics.

Just cause a circle fits inside a square doesn't mean that square fits inside that same circle's hole.

BSP + Outmaneuver (x3)

AP (x4)

comes to 99 pts.

Not saying you're wrong with your assessment of 8-7 TIEs + Howl is a stronger attacking formation.

But if there's a style of play you prefer you may need to make concessions in either Fielding Tactics or Building Tactics.

Just cause a circle fits inside a square doesn't mean that square fits inside that same circle's hole.

That seems somewhat workable. I will try it out, have a feeling it's still going to do nothing though. At the very least it will require a lot of tactics and planning whearas the Phantom player can just decloak sideways and then hard 1. Still though, that's only 3 ships that have any chance of scratching the Phantom, and they're all Tie fighters.

Thanks to this thread: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/133413-a-different-type-of-swarm/

I tried Sigma Phantom with ACD, Howl with Adrenaline Rush, black squadron with squad leader, and 3 acadmies at a store championship. In a game I was able to get some shots on his phantom with my generic one by getting behind it. I rolled 'meh' and no damage got through though. If the generic phantom dies or you whiff that crucial attack you're just done. Better chance than with regular TIEs I suppose.

What am I supposed to do when it takes a broadside from a TIE Swarm to plink a single shield off the thing?

Fire another one. The green dice will fail eventually.

Maybe with no other opponents and a significant supply of healthy TIE fighters. It is extremely unlikely that any TIE shot will do damage to 4 dice with a focus and there's almost no way the phantom will allow itself to be placed in front of a full swarm's arc of fire. In a timed match, it is futile to attempt pot shots to take down the Phantom, and any attempt to trap it will be easily countered by a smart player by attacking hard with the other element of his list, usually TIEs or a Deci.

So what do we do instead? I agree that the matchup is not brilliant, but that's irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is what to do when you're flying the swarm and have encountered a Phantom. We must deal with it, and the only real way to do that is to shoot the **** thing until it blows up and hope you have enough ships left over to take on the other half of the list afterwards. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Good question. I've never hit such a match up problem in X-wing that just feels so insolvable.

You suggest shooting the Phantom first and eliminating it, claiming it is the only real way. I think that a modified version of this can work. Your TIE formation does scare the Phantom, it wants to attack from the fringes and will escape rather than force an attack that puts it at too much risk. I think that killing the Phantom outright is out of the question. It will be a slow and high amount of turns to kill the Phantom, and it leaves your list in disarray for the Decimator or other component to easily pick off while the Phantom goes defensive.

So the only real option is to kill the other component quickly and efficiently in the case of a timed match. Then it is very possible to force the Phantom to not be able to shoot by blocking decloaks and then win by points.

I think a cool strategy would be to scare the Phantom away and force it to disengage and then turn all your force to bear on the supporting component, buying you a turn or two of firepower without having return from the Phantom. However, be sure not to fall into a bad position by chasing the Phantom initially, I've made this mistake and it cost me the game.

Drunken Shark!

What am I supposed to do when it takes a broadside from a TIE Swarm to plink a single shield off the thing?

Fire another one. The green dice will fail eventually.

Maybe with no other opponents and a significant supply of healthy TIE fighters. It is extremely unlikely that any TIE shot will do damage to 4 dice with a focus...

That's true for any individual fighter, but if you can get multiple arcs things actually aren't hopeless. The broadside from as many ships as possible is the best option, if you can't match its maneuvers and can't match it for firepower.

I guess I'm not sure what you or the OP is hoping for, since Phantoms are fairly commonly recognized as one of the reasons few people run swarms competitively these days. It's a bad matchup for the swarm, by you handle it the way you handle everything else: block it if you can, shoot it repeatedly, and hope your dice are hotter than your opponent's.

Basically, 4 agility vs 2 attack is extremely difficult to work through, even if they're consistently in your arc.
Either you force them to be unable to attack (my suggestion: dedicate some TIEs to block. 36 points of Academy is less than they spent on the Phantom, and your blockers can still shoot at things), or alter your list by a very large degree.

As someone who doesn't fly fat turrets or go out of his way to go to ps 10 just to deal with the Phantom ...

I think you might have to break this rule. Even having a PS10 2-Attack ship will force the Phantom player to change the way they fly.

Whenever I fly Howlrunner, she takes VI and Hull upgrade pretty much every time.

Either take PS10 or take 8 ships so you can still have enough pointing at the Phantom when you block 3 decloak options.

What am I supposed to do when it takes a broadside from a TIE Swarm to plink a single shield off the thing?

Fire another one. The green dice will fail eventually.

Maybe with no other opponents and a significant supply of healthy TIE fighters. It is extremely unlikely that any TIE shot will do damage to 4 dice with a focus...

That's true for any individual fighter, but if you can get multiple arcs things actually aren't hopeless. The broadside from as many ships as possible is the best option, if you can't match its maneuvers and can't match it for firepower.

I guess I'm not sure what you or the OP is hoping for, since Phantoms are fairly commonly recognized as one of the reasons few people run swarms competitively these days. It's a bad matchup for the swarm, by you handle it the way you handle everything else: block it if you can, shoot it repeatedly, and hope your dice are hotter than your opponent's.

I don't suppose you've read my other comment as well, where I explain my preferred tactic for dealing with the Phantom in a tourney matchup.

Its true for any individual fighter but it is also fairly true for a small group of TIEs. If probability holds true, not every TIE will land two hits, and the green dice will probably only have to spend the focus on one attack. In addition, the amount of shots is greatly decreased by the amount of ships necessary to force the Phantom into those arcs by blocking.

You have to hope for good dice, but that's never a strategy you want to go in knowing its your only hope. In fact, I'm pretty sure Obi wan would insist that hoping for luck isn't a strategy at all.

You are right that the only way to fight it (blocking and shooting) is the way you fight everything else. As a swarm in this meta, it's not enough to merely predict the enemy's maneuver when that enemy is a large ship with boost. It requires dedicating a TIE to blocking and allowing the remaining and dwindling TIEs to shoot at the target.

If you can't tell I'm feeling a little pessimistic about the TIE swarm at the moment, but I'll be taking it to the next store Championships nonetheless.

I'm not the best with probability but 2 red dice with focus seems to be even odds with 4 dice with no modifiers (1.5 expected hits or evades). Three dice attacks break even without the focus. Having a Phantom and six range one shots from TIEs that were benefiting from Howlrunner rerolls only to drop a single shield from Whisper seems like either your dice were cold or your opponent's were hot that round. I'd venture to guess that it is statistically more likely that Whisper would be destroyed in that round as it would be that she took only a single point of damage.

What am I supposed to do when it takes a broadside from a TIE Swarm to plink a single shield off the thing?

Fire another one. The green dice will fail eventually.

Make the Phantom player throw tons of green dice. Those things are terrible and will fail eventually. I one-shot one with Corran Horn over the weekend at a store tourney (it lost a shield from parking on a rock, but 3 hits got past 4 blanks); completely changed the direction of the game.

I'm not the best with probability but 2 red dice with focus seems to be even odds with 4 dice with no modifiers (1.5 expected hits or evades). Three dice attacks break even without the focus. Having a Phantom and six range one shots from TIEs that were benefiting from Howlrunner rerolls only to drop a single shield from Whisper seems like either your dice were cold or your opponent's were hot that round. I'd venture to guess that it is statistically more likely that Whisper would be destroyed in that round as it would be that she took only a single point of damage.

And when was the last time a Phantom player allowed himself to be shot by a full squad of TIEs? I get that the green dice will fail eventually, but you don't have the time or likelyhood in a timed match, especially when that Chiraneu is definitely going to be landing crits while your back is turned.

i have found that using your ties in two groups helps a lot. in fact, because of phantoms i've completely abandoned howlrunner in favour of the following list.

AP x4

Alpha x2

Dark Curse

you run the 4 APs as a group and the other three as another group. this does two things. firstly it means you are far more likely to get the phantom (or Dash, or Han, or whatever) in arc with at least one group. secondly, the three dice of the alphas are a lot more likely to get some damage through to the phantom. i've found that although i miss Howl in the opening rounds against conventional lists, the innate strengths of the swarm usually manage to overcome the loss.