On an unrelated note, in The Clone Wars TV show a clone has a child with a twi'lek farmer. I suppose it's never specifically stated the child is his and not there from a previous relationship, but that seems to be what they're suggesting.

Did the child somehow look half-human/half-Twi'lek?

thrawn offered what these movies didn't: a new and good story.

On an unrelated note, in The Clone Wars TV show a clone has a child with a twi'lek farmer. I suppose it's never specifically stated the child is his and not there from a previous relationship, but that seems to be what they're suggesting.

Did the child somehow look half-human/half-Twi'lek?

I think it looked fully twi'lek.

"You fought in the Clone Wars?"

I rather liked that The Clone Wars turned out to be waged by millions of clones fighting millions of droids. And I think it fit very well with the overall story. Also, the The Clones Wars CG show was very, very cool. It certainly wasn't faceless or nameless on either side. The clones each took nicknames and different haircuts to personalize their own existence - some going even further with art on their armor and helmets. Even though they all looked the same, you often see them without their helmets on; in one episode, you see them at a clones-only club on Coruscant being regular guys.

The droids had plenty of personality to make them fun to watch. In the movies, the droids weren't all that cool to me. But I found, as I kept watching TCW, that I really enjoyed the scenes where battle droids were talking to each other. I loved it when a jedi would encounter droids, and they'd look at each other knowing they were about to be wiped out. I love watching magnaguards fight. The BX commando droids...

And don't forget, both armies were lead by "real" people. Seeing more of the Jedi and CIS characters like Grievous and Dooku and that spider-admiral-guy was pretty awesome for me. Now, these are all directorial and story-telling choices made by Dave Filoni and his crew, but I think the way the Clone War is set up and unfolds is very hip.

TCW the highlight of the prequel era. I think it would be extremely cool if Dave Filoni could remake Episodes II and III using TCW animation and clean up a lot of the soap opera dialog of those two movies.

I like tcw too. its.the movies im ranting about.

thinking about clones too. I mean, making a clone armycosts more than a regular one. all the costs ofarming and training them and transporting them is the same as a regular army, plus the cost of growing them,educating, feeding them while they are kids, accelerated growth and genetic engineering. plus the facilities. its so impracticable. jaw dropping stupid!

Well, the arming and outfitting and equipping costs are the same if you're producing clones or normal recruits - so that's a non-issue. As for costs of growing and sustaining them while training - the trade off is you get a obedient, brainwashed army that will never question, never waver, is completely in your back pocket from birth to death. That seems like a pretty good deal to me. Plus when he drops the hammer on the Galaxy, he'll need 100% loyal troops back him while he secures power. An army of conscripts and recruits will probably balk at his coup.

And Palpatine seems like the sort of jerk who would do it for the lolz. The guy has the deep pockets of a galaxy spanning government to draw on. What's a few billion here or there for getting your jollies off.

Plus - it's kind of the theme of the prequels, that the Jedi were so broken that they would have no problem seeing the clones as tools, to be used and disposed of as necessary. They see them as nothing more than organic droids - part of the Jedi arrogance that led to their downfall.

thinking about clones too. I mean, making a clone armycosts more than a regular one. all the costs ofarming and training them and transporting them is the same as a regular army, plus the cost of growing them,educating, feeding them while they are kids, accelerated growth and genetic engineering. plus the facilities. its so impracticable. jaw dropping stupid!

But you can raise a clone army in secret and that was a critical requirement of Palpatine's plan. Advertising for soldiers across the galaxy, recruiting them and taking them off somewhere and keeping them from talking to their friends or family? Very hard to keep secret. But clones have none of that and you grow your own on a remote planet. It works.

how could the clones.kill the Jedi. we see they use blasters against them, but a blaster is never.useful against one. every example, besides for order 66, that's what we see from every movie account. even nameless Jedi in ep 2.

Not every Jedi is Qui Gon Jinn and when we see a Jedi deflecting blaster bolts it's against a handful of opponents targetting them. When Order 66 happened, it was one or two Jedi amidst entire battalions of troops. It's not unrealistic for the Jedi to lose that confrontation. Not sure if you've seen all of TCW episodes, but they do a really good job of this.

On an unrelated note, in The Clone Wars TV show a clone has a child with a twi'lek farmer. I suppose it's never specifically stated the child is his and not there from a previous relationship, but that seems to be what they're suggesting.

On an unrelated note, in The Clone Wars TV show a clone has a child with a twi'lek farmer. I suppose it's never specifically stated the child is his and not there from a previous relationship, but that seems to be what they're suggesting.

Did the child somehow look half-human/half-Twi'lek?

The children both appear to be Twi'lek, not some half-breed. Though I suppose their skin colouring being different to their mother's could suggest they're half-breeds. No more so than a blonde child suggesting a dark-haired parent isn't its real parent though - hardly anything that would make you question it if there wasn't already a reason to question it.

I'm still waiting on someone to tell me where I TCW it showed that Twi'lek and human could interbreed. I guess in retrospect they maybe meant this episode. In which case, I really don't think it does.

Well, the arming and outfitting and equipping costs are the same if you're producing clones or normal recruits - so that's a non-issue.

Cheaper, actually. You only have to buy uniforms and helmets in one size. And you only need to stock one blood type in your medical facilities as well.

Considering the size of the Empire's ships, the number of them, and the ability to secretly hide the fact that they spent money on TWO Death Stars, I don't think money is an issue. I don't know why Palpatine wouldn't continue to produce clones because everything suggests they were simply better at being elite troopers. Even if he scaling back and just using them for Stormtroopers seems almost too logical for him not to do it.

When I'm Darth Haley, Emperor of the Galaxy, you can bet I'll keep the clone program running!

But you can raise a clone army in secret and that was a critical requirement of Palpatine's plan. Advertising for soldiers across the galaxy, recruiting them and taking them off somewhere and keeping them from talking to their friends or family? Very hard to keep secret. But clones have none of that and you grow your own on a remote planet. It works.

You also have to look at quality and time frame for this.

The Clones had a longer training program. A Clones entire Education and Training were part of a 10 year system. 5 to grow them in chambers and 5 more to train while they finished maturing. So it is easy to argue a Clone Army is likely to be of High Quality vs Regular Army.

Example: A new Clone Trooper coming from Kamino has had 5 years of training prior to deployment. A new Non-Clone Trooper may have 6 Months of Training prior to deployment.

Now time frame comes into play with this. It would be faster to raise a Conscripted/Volunteer Army. Even if we go the "Spaarti" Route (Which we lose Quality by time of Training) we could Produce Twice as many Conscript/Volunteer Troopers than Clones. So we can see why in the aftermath of the Clone Wars we have the switch to Non-Clones.

Also to look at Knasserll's point about a Secret Army.

Here is an easily solution to the threat of a Cold Heartless Machine Army. One that presents a threat to not just Individual Systems, but actually threatens the Republic as a whole. So here shows up this Secret Army of Clones to fight for the Jedi and the Republic. It actually creates a real point of distrust between the Senate and the Jedi.

how could the clones.kill the Jedi. we see they use blasters against them, but a blaster is never.useful against one. every example, besides for order 66, that's what we see from every movie account. even nameless Jedi in ep 2.

Not every Jedi is Qui Gon Jinn and when we see a Jedi deflecting blaster bolts it's against a handful of opponents targetting them. When Order 66 happened, it was one or two Jedi amidst entire battalions of troops. It's not unrealistic for the Jedi to lose that confrontation. Not sure if you've seen all of TCW episodes, but they do a really good job of this.

As we saw in RotS a good number of Jedi did not even have their light-sabers ready or available when the attack came. (The Yoda argument accounts for those that Survived) Over the course of the Clone Wars the Clone Troopers learned how to defend the Jedi. So they would naturally know of a weakness they could exploit. Example: Thermal Grenade or Rocket.

I heard that both the Republic and the Confederacy had large numbers of non-clone/non-droid troops that fought in the Clone Wars, but they are definitely overshadowed by the clones and droids that were the focus of the cameras (aside from Jedi). There are a lot of story ideas that come from these unseen soldiers on both sides, with the Imperial Army addressing the Republic-allied ones. I do think it makes a better story for stormtroopers to remain clones (although not necessarily all Jango clones - other high-caliber soldiers could be used for batches too), especially if you intend to keep a division between the Imperial Army and the Stormtrooper Corps (which my old-school self prefers).

Considering the size of the Empire's ships, the number of them, and the ability to secretly hide the fact that they spent money on TWO Death Stars, I don't think money is an issue. I don't know why Palpatine wouldn't continue to produce clones because everything suggests they were simply better at being elite troopers. Even if he scaling back and just using them for Stormtroopers seems almost too logical for him not to do it.

When I'm Darth Haley, Emperor of the Galaxy, you can bet I'll keep the clone program running!

But who will you use as your template for the clones?

Anyone but Jar-Jar, please!

Here is an easily solution to the threat of a Cold Heartless Machine Army. One that presents a threat to not just Individual Systems, but actually threatens the Republic as a whole. So here shows up this Secret Army of Clones to fight for the Jedi and the Republic. It actually creates a real point of distrust between the Senate and the Jedi.

That's a really good point and something I don't think I had ever noticed. The fact that the Jedi (ostensibly a non-military spiritual order) suddenly produced a fully equipped army out of nowhere must have made a lot of Senators go "Errrrmmm".

It would be like the USA being threatened and suddenly Google saying: "actually, our Wisconsin office is a secret military training facility and we have all the guns and rockets we need. But don't worry - we have a motto of Do No Evil!" shortly followed by "Oh, and our constant tracking of everyone's behaviour has given us the power to sense disturbances, predict the future and pretty much tell what you're thinking." Is there anyone in DC who wouldn't be a little concerned about their new saviours?

No, it would be more like the IRS revealing that they had an army.

Building an Empire and controlling one are very different missions for a military. The Clones were bred and trained to win battles but you need other skills along with life experience to effectively occupy and maintain control of populations. You also need ambition and mistrust to police you own forces as well as rooting out dissidents. Clones are not well suited to these tasks because of their very nature as a cohesive and fearless fighting force.

Further an Empire needs to recruit from within and needs a vehicle to build loyalty, give me the child and I'll give you the man and all that. Military training and indoctrination are perfect for this. Plus it's also a tool to discourage rebellion because the troops that are enforcing the Emperor's rule could also be your family.

Basically the Clones had a specific purpose that no longer applied and regardless of how effective a fighting force they were they were no longer useful.

Building an Empire and controlling one are very different missions for a military. The Clones were bred and trained to win battles but you need other skills along with life experience to effectively occupy and maintain control of populations. You also need ambition and mistrust to police you own forces as well as rooting out dissidents. Clones are not well suited to these tasks because of their very nature as a cohesive and fearless fighting force.

Except do you need to root out dissidents from your own forces if 100% of your forces would - without heistiation - jump off a cliff at Palpatine's say-so? Probably not.

Mind you, the Empire already has that - the officers, the guys in black helmets, pretty much everyone we see on screen that's not in a white shell. Those guys, the ones running the show? Not clones, plucked from the general populace and otherwise everything else you might need to run a dictatorship. The guys in white shells? They're just a large hammer to bust your sh*t up as necessary.

That's a really good point and something I don't think I had ever noticed. The fact that the Jedi (ostensibly a non-military spiritual order) suddenly produced a fully equipped army out of nowhere must have made a lot of Senators go "Errrrmmm".

It would be like the USA being threatened and suddenly Google saying: "actually, our Wisconsin office is a secret military training facility and we have all the guns and rockets we need. But don't worry - we have a motto of Do No Evil!" shortly followed by "Oh, and our constant tracking of everyone's behaviour has given us the power to sense disturbances, predict the future and pretty much tell what you're thinking." Is there anyone in DC who wouldn't be a little concerned about their new saviours?

Now to bring everything full circle. That would be a pretty cool idea to explore for a SW RPG adventure.

Except do you need to root out dissidents from your own forces if 100% of your forces would - without heistiation - jump off a cliff at Palpatine's say-so? Probably not.

Well, yes and no. You may want a few of these types but you can get this through indoctrination and it'll actually be more effective in the long run. Plus it's not just dissident from within but also the occupied populations and since most of a Stormtrooper's job currently is maintaining order you need to be able to draw from a different set of skills.

Mind you, the Empire already has that - the officers, the guys in black helmets, pretty much everyone we see on screen that's not in a white shell. Those guys, the ones running the show? Not clones, plucked from the general populace and otherwise everything else you might need to run a dictatorship. The guys in white shells? They're just a large hammer to bust your sh*t up as necessary.

You need to get your combat officers from somewhere.

I'm not saying you don't have a good argument, I'm just saying that Clones are an unnecessary burden on the Imperial military. It's much more cost effective because of their versatility to get all of your troops from you population then to grow them.

How then, might I ask, would you recommend killing 10,000 plus jedi? The jedi thought they were invulnerable - that was part of the story. And they weren't.

Edit: sorry, didn't mean to be snarky, but I've heard this quite a number of times. People see jedi as undefeatable or invulnerable, but yet we know that there were tens of thousands that were killed during the clone wars. (And that was before the prequels existed).

For starters, I wouldn't have made the Jedi as undefeatable or invulnerable. In the OT they had some mind control powers, can choke, and throw stuff. Great stuff, sure, but nothing too overly powerful. In the PT they became super heros cranked up to 11. (Further note, I don't like how the Force Unleashed games made some fans feel that that should be the standard power level.)

That is one of the reasons why I don't enjoy the PT. The droids were never a threat to the Jedi. The heros were afraid of the Stormtroopers in the OT. No named character was afraid of the mainline droids. They were afraid of those rolling droid things, but that's just like Superman's Kryptonite. Unless the one of the super scary droids were there, there was no danger.

And don't get me started on naming it the Clone Wars. Wars are named after the "bad guys", not the "good guys".

Here is an easily solution to the threat of a Cold Heartless Machine Army. One that presents a threat to not just Individual Systems, but actually threatens the Republic as a whole. So here shows up this Secret Army of Clones to fight for the Jedi and the Republic. It actually creates a real point of distrust between the Senate and the Jedi.

That's a really good point and something I don't think I had ever noticed. The fact that the Jedi (ostensibly a non-military spiritual order) suddenly produced a fully equipped army out of nowhere must have made a lot of Senators go "Errrrmmm".

It would be like the USA being threatened and suddenly Google saying: "actually, our Wisconsin office is a secret military training facility and we have all the guns and rockets we need. But don't worry - we have a motto of Do No Evil!" shortly followed by "Oh, and our constant tracking of everyone's behaviour has given us the power to sense disturbances, predict the future and pretty much tell what you're thinking." Is there anyone in DC who wouldn't be a little concerned about their new saviours?

As someone from Wisconsin, I can neither confirm or deny the existance of secret military training at the Google offices a handful of blocks away from where I'm sitting.

BTW: I think they dropped "Do no evil" a couple years ago...

The droids seemed like a threat to the Jedi in the arena on Geonosis, until the clones showed up.

In episode I, the basic battle droid was, more than anything, a threat to itself.

Considering the size of the Empire's ships, the number of them, and the ability to secretly hide the fact that they spent money on TWO Death Stars, I don't think money is an issue. I don't know why Palpatine wouldn't continue to produce clones because everything suggests they were simply better at being elite troopers. Even if he scaling back and just using them for Stormtroopers seems almost too logical for him not to do it.

When I'm Darth Haley, Emperor of the Galaxy, you can bet I'll keep the clone program running!

she has my vote. ALL BAIL DARTH HALEY